If you don't insure, but save instead...

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maya2008

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How much do you put aside each month, and do you find doing this to be better/more cost effective?

We are considering this for our older horses, as the list of exclusions is now rather long. Not sure whether to do veteran cover + savings, or just savings. We do have sufficient savings to meet costs if there is an initial injury/issue.
 
You have to be realistic about what you would and wouldn't treat. If you're happy to say you wouldn't have surgery for colic or to flush an infected joint for example, of that you won't be wanting big lameness diagnostics such as bone scans/ MRIs then you want to ideally keep a pot of around £500- £1000 to cover other basic emergency care and aftercare from more minor procedures. If you want to cover for more extensive investigations and procesdures then 5k minimum
 
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maya2008 said:
How much do you put aside each month, and do you find doing this to be better/more cost effective?

We are considering this for our older horses, as the list of exclusions is now rather long. Not sure whether to do veteran cover + savings, or just savings. We do have sufficient savings to meet costs if there is an initial injury/issue.
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I don't. I have one who is 11 and still insured. One who is 20 and no longer insured. He's sound and in work, but he's high mileage, and high history, and I wouldn't put him through any surgery / box rest, or ANYTHING major. He's on borrowed time, and I'd make the call. I could borrow / credit card about £1.5K and pay it off it the prognosis and outcome was good.
 
I used to have two horses and an excess of £500 on each policy. In an unlucky 18 months, I think I paid £3,000 in excesses alone. (Sarcoids and treatment, suspected fracture –wasn’t, two serious liver issues, 4 months abscess thought to be fractured pedal bone, hind lameness issue).

Is a minefield.

Prior to that I had barely ever claimed, and high excess had worked well.
 
My ins was £28 per month, payed dutifuly for 8 years until the time came where I needed to claim and Petplan decided to play 'computer says no' (I actually took the case to the ombudsman and won!) When renewal came up I cancelled, I put together 1k to start off my vet savings and now add £50 to it per month. I also have a good overdraft option. I have BHS gold for public liability.
 
I put £100 a month away for two old horses - this is slightly more than their insurance premium was (£84 for very basic cover with several exclusions for the things they would be most likely to need) as soon as they turned 17. They're now 22 and I'm up to about £7k. I set myself a rule that I'll only dip into it for something I would have claimed for so the odd bit of bute here and there I've covered myself. There's been one occasion when I would have dipped into it, but I chose the 0% credit card deal instead for the £2k bill for M's stay in horsepital, bone scan and subesquent treatment for an arthritic elbow. I'm currently paying that off at £80 a month and still saving the £100. If I don't have to use it for treatment for them (I won't put them through invasive surgery at their age) I'll use it to buy my next one - not that I'll need one costing that much at all!
 
My two are uninsurable due to previous claims, so I save £100 per month, I've got about £2k saved. I only really plan to use it for vet bills I would have claimed for.
Wish I'd done this earlier.
 
I have insured and successfully claimed before with petplan, but these days I put £60 a month in an ISA. However, this method isn't as successful as I intended as I keep 'robbing the bank' to pay for other things!
 
I am finding that previous issues come back, so I am paying £000s out of my own pocket and paying the insurance company money that could have gone towards those costs.

Even with a younger horse, the vets take forever to fill in the claim form and the vet hospital won't take the horse without a form filled in, so either it goes on the credit card or the poor lame horse has to wait for non-urgent but necessary treatment while people faff around doing admin!
 
maya2008 said:
I am finding that previous issues come back, so I am paying £000s out of my own pocket and paying the insurance company money that could have gone towards those costs.

Even with a younger horse, the vets take forever to fill in the claim form and the vet hospital won't take the horse without a form filled in, so either it goes on the credit card or the poor lame horse has to wait for non-urgent but necessary treatment while people faff around doing admin!
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That wasn't my January 2018 vet hospital experience. The vet hospital were brilliant, and invoiced insurance company.
 
flying_high said:
That wasn't my January 2018 vet hospital experience. The vet hospital were brilliant, and invoiced insurance company.
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It can depend on your insurance underwriters, my local vet hospital refuses to deal with E&L so you have to pay the cost up front and then reclaim it from the insurers.

I put away a minimum of £100 a month but if I'm having a 'rich' month (my income varies above a baseline due to extra work being paid at an hourly rate) I'll put away as much as I can :). I've already made the decision that I won't put this particular horse through invasive surgery or long-term box rest on welfare grounds so that limits the amount that vet treatment could cost. Her most expensive bill in 4 years was £1k for 3 days in horspital with spasmodic colic. She was insured but they refused to pay out because I didn't phone them to ask if she could go in (??? it was 10pm and I thought my horse was going to die...). At that point I cancelled the insurance!
 
It is such a minefield, but I was mightily relieved my two young horses were insured last year. Both picked up a nasty virus out competing and both had most of 2017 off work. Excess was £300 on one and £250 on the other. However, the vet care costs were huge because the virus proved so difficult to shift. Drugs for the feral carthorse were costly purely due to his size and the dosage rates.

There was no way I could have found the money they cost to bring back to health without insurance. Obviously they both have exclusions on resp issues now and one has been left compromised and is on other meds to help her. I think if I just had one horse I would save but with several horses I have to have them insured for vet cover.
 
A friend has just had a bad year and big claim with KBIS and they were great, no hassle and let her go ahead with all number of investigatory works. I'd suggest a quote from them?

I previously was insured with NFU again faultless.
 
After years of no claims my two managed to rack up £17,000 of vet bills this year between them! Cost me 4x £150 + some stabling fees ... Definitely made my insurance worthwhile; however, once the exclusions start creeping in and the premiums start rising you do need to consider the cost/benefit. Both my horses are young and I am not ready to lose them if they can be saved.
 
My premium for next year (NFU, with all horses valued at approx £500, tack £500, no public liability) is £3k.

In the context of that, and having spent approx that this year... I am in the process of paying £3k for an older horse with a condition that has recurred, made more expensive by the gastroguard that she desperately needed and was in too much pain with other issues to scope (decision made with my ok). So I will not be able to claim for ulcers or colic ever, but I also can't claim for them now. Her friend (also late teens) is excluded for a massive long list of conditions and is now semi retired.

My younger horse, who has only ever had vaccinations in her whole life, needs an operation for lameness. Vet hospital nearest us won't take horses without claim form and ok or credit card. I don't have a credit card and am paying for the other horse with my readily available funds. Vets' admin people are moaning about me chasing them for the claim form that I need filling in so she can be treated. She is stuck, lame, waiting. This would have been resolved last week if I was paying, and the £3k I paid them this year would have covered most of it.

That said, the experience of paying myself for the first horse has been enlightening. I am consulted much more about her treatment and we were able to start asap with no worries. I can pay my bill weekly and keep up to date, so no threatening letters because NFU are taking their own sweet time to pay (my last claim I paid and was reimbursed, to avoid that. It took months!!!).

I need to change something - paying out twice is ridiculous, and the older ones wouldn't go through fancy surgery. I would keep £5k per horse in the bank and see...

Still trying to decide!
 
I find it better not to insure as partly I wonder if half of these tests etc are needed or if they are more needed in a horse that is insured. I prefer to be in charge and deal with the vet and not be governed by what the insurance company agree to. When I have had them in horse hospital I have visited daily, been in direct contact with the vet and we have discussed the options. I have been told of the bill increase on a daily basis . i also have a set plan of exactly what I will do if each is ill. One will be off to vet clinic immediately and money will be no object. Some of the older ones will die from colic or laminitis. This has happened before and I know exactly when I will call a halt.
As much money will be spent on the oldies as needed. Bute, prascend and the like. Insurance would not pay for this.

In the olden days we used to turn horses with problems out for 6 months, perhaps a year and somehow many seemed to come right on their own. Now it is test after test. It makes me wonder if we need patience more than insurance sometimes.
To back up my views I could afford to pay from savings if I had to and I also have a credit card with 15k on it never used just kept for the horsehospital in an emergency.


I sometimes think it would be better to have a check list when this question asked for example
can you pay in an emergency, would you pay, do you want the horse to go to hospital, do you want to operate for colic, are you the sort who wants immediate tests or would you prefer to wait etc etc. Ticking all those sort of questions I think would provide the answer as each person is different.
 
I agree regarding tests. You can run every expensive test you want for lameness, but at the end of the day, your horse is still lame, and will need time and patience to recover.
I find there's a bit of an issue now - with vets selling treatments just because they exist, and as a horse owner, it can be hard to say no without feeling you have let your horse down.
 
My old boy (21) is not insured. He had a brain abscess 2 years ago- nose bleed and face swelled up so one eye was shut. Due to age and lack of insurance we did pay for a nasal scope to rule out something in his nasal passage, then did two weeks of painkillers and antibiotics in the hope that it was a lab abscess not a tumour: we would not pay for a ct scan or frankly put him through that. Luckily my dad technically owns him and is happy to cover vets bill. It was less than a grand so I could of credit carded it if not.

My other two are jnsured as despite the cost (£100 a month) if they both had issues at the same time it could be a disaster. However I am reducing cover as don’t want to do colic surgery so pointless to cover.

I was about to switch to trying the savings option and then my pony got diagnosed with liver damage. Medication is a lot and cost over £2000 so far! I pay 15%. So insurances has worked out. But only claimed once with my mare in 5 years and only £600
Kbis have been great and speedy.
Will have to try and start saving if long term he will continue to need medication as will only be covered for 18 months.
 
I'd love to have a little nest egg to rely on for vets fees instead of insurance, but after the last three years I am loathe to cancel the insurance (Four Large 1k+ claims on the youngster, One Large 1k+ on the mare).
I am however wondering what my renewal/exclusions are going to look like next year, seeing as 3/5 claims have been this year alone. I'm tempted to drop the mare down to accident/external injury, as I wouldn't put her through colic surgery and apart from her arthritis (which will be excluded) she's pretty healthy. The youngster is another matter though, she's both accident prone and seems to be working her way through the great big book of equine maladies (Sarcoids, Sweetitch, Cyst, Mangling her right hind) and I never know what the damn creature is going to get next! (Good job I love the bones of that ratbag haha).

I'm thinking maybe I'll start putting back the savings from dropping the mares cover down a level at a minimum, at least then it she pokes an eye out she'll be covered, and I can put money aside for issues that may crop up in the future (far future lets hope!).
 
There is no way I would insure now, I save every month instead and have a nest egg for emergencies higher than that of the vet fees that my insurance would reach anyway. I worked out that with 2 horses at £40 a month each I have saved over 10 years £9600. I have had to pay out for a few things but nothing that I would have used insurance for anyway.
Also the culture of insurance is such that you have a set amount for a set time which you are encouraged to rinse for every penny so I always wondered whether the advice you get is actually best for the horse or just using every available option to use the money, I hate that idea and now feel much better being in control than feeling at the mercy of an insurer.
I know some people live on the edge financially though and with the best will in the world wouldn't save instead and would be stuffed in an emergency so insurance is a very good idea for those people!
 
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