Ignoring the bad...

[Wagtail]

I'm currently rebacking my rising 6 year old after being severely delayed due to ill-health (mine). Feeling better now so am cracking on. I have a lovely relationship with her. She trusts me, is calmed by me and I adore her. However, I learned near the beginning (she was two when I got her), that you cannot reprimand her. By reprimand, I mean a yank on the rope or a raised voice, or indeed anything that raises your energy. Her reaction is to raise hers much further. Anyway, my policy of ignoring the bad and praising the good has worked wonders with her until very recently. I have been working in-hand with her preparing her for re-backing and she has developed a habit of suddenly leaping forward and rearing. I just stand and wait for her to come back to me, which she does, gently circle her and carry on as if nothing had happened. This haappens with or without tack and is due to exitement and exhuberance. She tends to do it just as we turn for home or turn the bend at the top of the arena towards the gate. Today she did it as I led her to the field to be turned out. The reason was just because I had changed the turnout order as one horse has the vet today. She's normally out first but had to wait until third. Anyway, it's not in any way nasty, and she comes right back to me afterwards, but I am wondering if anyone else has a horse that cannot be reprimanded in the usual way, what they do? I usually circle her so that she gets the opposite of what she wanted and am still hoping that maybe she'll just tire of the habit before she misjudges and jumps on top of me. If my last mare or most other horses did it they would get a sharp 'No!', a growl and a firm backing up, but you cannot do this with her.

She's so good in other ways. I can take her away from all the others on her own and she is perfectly happy with just my company, she chats to me, follows me, and is generally obedient in every other respect.

 

[Antw23uk]

I have a mare similar in that you cant bully or tell her what to do, she will not tolerate my bad moody moods and I have had to adapt very quickly to how I handle her as apposed to my saint of a gelding who, if need be, can be bullied and pushed into doing whatever you want. Its been a shock to my system thats for sure, lol! So cant help but you are not alone. I do reprimand her though rather than ignore but I have to do it in a 'fair' way rather than in anger or bullish in behaviour because if i do i just get a big fat NOPE!! back at me. Cracks me up, I love her

 

[Wagtail]

I have a mare similar in that you cant bully or tell her what to do, she will not tolerate my bad moody moods and I have had to adapt very quickly to how I handle her as apposed to my saint of a gelding who, if need be, can be bullied and pushed into doing whatever you want. Its been a shock to my system thats for sure, lol! So cant help but you are not alone. I do reprimand her though rather than ignore but I have to do it in a 'fair' way rather than in anger or bullish in behaviour because if i do i just get a big fat NOPE!! back at me. Cracks me up, I love her

Mares, eh? Is yours quite bossy? Mine is boss of all the other horses even though she is the youngest and smallest, lol. My last mare was far less bossy with other horses and even seemed more calm and reassured when told off.

 

[Cortez]

If you can't correct a horse, you can't train it. HOW you correct it is another thing entirely. I have a horse which can't be disciplined in the normal way due to a combination of extreme sensitivity and previous abuse; not the same as your horse but leaving me in a similar predicament. It has taken a while, but I can now hold a stick in my hand without him falling over in fear, I can also use it VERY lightly but have to be measured and calm while doing so and make sure he knows exactly what I'm asking for. He still can't bear a raised voice, but is no longer the quaking bowl of jelly he used to be. He's 15 now, and I've had him for 6 years.

With your young mare the situation is different, and more dangerous. I think you have to do something or she will hurt you. I would be inclined to use a stud chain, or perhaps you might prefer a dually-type halter thingy, and use it judiciously. Horses cannot be allowed to use their power against us (or on top of us if we are in the way), they have to be under control or we'd all get hurt even more than happens already!

 

[kamili]

My fella is like that, he fights back. So I reprimand him, then change what I was doing and pretend it didn't happen. It seems to work well.

I don't go all out in the reprimanding him, usually a short sharp shout of his name and he goes upps. and stops. Then I go back to doing what I was doing as if it didn't happen and ask again.

Not sure that makes sense but he gets it!

 

[milliepops]

If you can't correct a horse, you can't train it. HOW you correct it is another thing entirely. I have a horse which can't be disciplined in the normal way due to a combination of extreme sensitivity and previous abuse; not the same as your horse but leaving me in a similar predicament. It has taken a while, but I can now hold a stick in my hand without him falling over in fear, I can also use it VERY lightly but have to be measured and calm while doing so and make sure he knows exactly what I'm asking for. He still can't bear a raised voice, but is no longer the quaking bowl of jelly he used to be. He's 15 now, and I've had him for 6 years.

With your young mare the situation is different, and more dangerous. I think you have to do something or she will hurt you. I would be inclined to use a stud chain, or perhaps you might prefer a dually-type halter thingy, and use it judiciously. Horses cannot be allowed to use their power against us (or on top of us if we are in the way), they have to be under control or we'd all get hurt even more than happens already!

agree ^^

My welsh was always one that I had to tread carefully with, if I reprimanded her in the way that another horse would accept, she became either hysterical to the point of complete melt down, or she became more heightened in whatever the "bad" reaction was & was dangerous. I had to ignore the bad and patiently wait for the good thought to dawn on her, and then we could continue.

This was a really challenging time in her education, it caused big delays in her training and I was keen for her to quickly come to terms with the idea that she might be corrected at times, that she could learn from that without losing the plot, and that I wasn't going to beat the living daylights out of her for making a mistake.

I am happy to say I think she's come through it and is now much easier to work with. In the past I pussyfooted around her... had to or else we couldn't do anything Now I can train her like a normal horse and she's come on leaps and bounds just for learning that tiny thing. We still have what I would colloquially describe as a good bond, she looks to me for support at times and is a happy well adjusted pony now but I hold the balance of power.

 

[Wagtail]

If you can't correct a horse, you can't train it. HOW you correct it is another thing entirely. I have a horse which can't be disciplined in the normal way due to a combination of extreme sensitivity and previous abuse; not the same as your horse but leaving me in a similar predicament. It has taken a while, but I can now hold a stick in my hand without him falling over in fear, I can also use it VERY lightly but have to be measured and calm while doing so and make sure he knows exactly what I'm asking for. He still can't bear a raised voice, but is no longer the quaking bowl of jelly he used to be. He's 15 now, and I've had him for 6 years.

With your young mare the situation is different, and more dangerous. I think you have to do something or she will hurt you. I would be inclined to use a stud chain, or perhaps you might prefer a dually-type halter thingy, and use it judiciously. Horses cannot be allowed to use their power against us (or on top of us if we are in the way), they have to be under control or we'd all get hurt even more than happens already!

Thank you. I see what you're saying. I like to lead with a relaxed rope and them obediently at my side. She does that 99% of the time when in her normal routine. However, anything different and she will do the leaping, rearing thing, and I agree it could be dangerous. It has been happening just two weeks and normally any bad behaviour disappears with her if I ignore it but make sure that it hasn't gotten her what she was wanting by displaying it. But I think I now need to change my approach slightly as she has not shown any signs of doing it less.

 

[Wagtail]

My fella is like that, he fights back. So I reprimand him, then change what I was doing and pretend it didn't happen. It seems to work well.

I don't go all out in the reprimanding him, usually a short sharp shout of his name and he goes upps. and stops. Then I go back to doing what I was doing as if it didn't happen and ask again.

Not sure that makes sense but he gets it!

Thanks. Yes, I think I will start to introduce a bit of negative reaction to her antics. It's gone on long enough now.

 

[Wagtail]

agree ^^

My welsh was always one that I had to tread carefully with, if I reprimanded her in the way that another horse would accept, she became either hysterical to the point of complete melt down, or she became more heightened in whatever the "bad" reaction was & was dangerous. I had to ignore the bad and patiently wait for the good thought to dawn on her, and then we could continue.

This was a really challenging time in her education, it caused big delays in her training and I was keen for her to quickly come to terms with the idea that she might be corrected at times, that she could learn from that without losing the plot, and that I wasn't going to beat the living daylights out of her for making a mistake.

I am happy to say I think she's come through it and is now much easier to work with. In the past I pussyfooted around her... had to or else we couldn't do anything Now I can train her like a normal horse and she's come on leaps and bounds just for learning that tiny thing. We still have what I would colloquially describe as a good bond, she looks to me for support at times and is a happy well adjusted pony now but I hold the balance of power.

That's a lovely story. It's good to hear when trainers adapt their approach to suit the horse. I'm a big fan of the ignore the bad philosophy, and it generally works very well. Now though I do realise I have to change my tactics alittle with my girl.

 

[milliepops]

That's a lovely story. It's good to hear when trainers adapt their approach to suit the horse. I'm a big fan of the ignore the bad philosophy, and it generally works very well. Now though I do realise I have to change my tactics alittle with my girl.

I don't think you should view it as a negative thing either. Honestly it is the single thing that has tipped Kira over the edge from being extremely difficult to manage, (not nasty, just really hard to handle if anything unexpected happend) to being a sweet pony that I really love training. She's happier and more relaxed for it as well, I think - she knows what's the worst that can happen if she steps out of line (a swift and fuss-free correction) and she can deal with that. She's more predictable now as a result because she understands. She knows where the boundaries are.

I think before we got to this point, she had been feral for so long that she just couldn't process what the outcome could be if she did something wrong, but she couldn't concentrate on an instruction for long enough to find out what she was supposed to do, so just went freeform! She's quick witted and learns fast now, but it was seriously hard going in the beginning.

 

[Cortez]

Also, maybe cut the feed a little?

 

[SEL]

I have a mare who is similar, but I always put it down to her being hand reared from shortly after birth. Her horse vs human interactions are skewed because she learnt in the first year of her life that she could get away with dominating humans. She is actually pretty low down in the pecking order in a herd of horses which is interesting.

I've been working with her for 2 years now and I'm still careful who I let handle her, because she can come right back at you if she senses weakness. I am very careful not to put myself in a position where I might have to back off for safety reasons, so I can use strong body language (shoulders back, level breathing, firm 'no') to prevent her thinking she is higher up the pecking order. I am also big on praising her when she is behaving, even if that is just talking calmly and quietly to her when she leads in nicely. She is a different horse to 2 years ago, although the occasional meltdown shows me that those behaviours will never entirely go away - she also has an underlying medical / pain issue to add another layer of complexity

The emergency 'rope around the nose' when leading in a headcollar has been put to good use a few times too.

 

[Auslander]

Nip it in the bud - it's dangerous! I've got one here who goes nuclear if you tell her off, but she has to be reminded to be reasonable, as she's likely to hurt someone during one of her meltdowns about stuff that is usually ok! Some days I can't even get a headcollar on her, as she acts like I'm trying to wrap electrified tape round her. Other days, rugs are dangerous and terrifying. Sometimes, she's not bothered about either! She's also funny about narrow gateways/stable doors - sometimes.
If she's going backwards, I make her carry on backing her up until she drops her head and starts to think, and if she's leaping around, she gets sent forward until she does the same. She's incredibly sensitive/reactive - I moved my thumb from bent to straight the other day, and she jumped like she'd been shot - so you have to be very careful around her when she's in LaLa mode! There's no rhyme nor reason to it either - she can also be really laidback and easy. Different horse to handle every day of the week!

 

[Wagtail]

Also, maybe cut the feed a little?

It does seem to have coinciided with the Spring grass! She is only on half a scoop of Pure feeds Easy twice daily. That is just a chaff with a balancer, meant for horses resting or laminitic. That's less than a third of the recommended (though I never go by what it says on the sack). Her forage is plain hay overnight. As I say though, I think the Spring grass has had an effect. I took her off her carrots too a week ago.

 

[Wagtail]

I have a mare who is similar, but I always put it down to her being hand reared from shortly after birth. Her horse vs human interactions are skewed because she learnt in the first year of her life that she could get away with dominating humans. She is actually pretty low down in the pecking order in a herd of horses which is interesting.

I've been working with her for 2 years now and I'm still careful who I let handle her, because she can come right back at you if she senses weakness. I am very careful not to put myself in a position where I might have to back off for safety reasons, so I can use strong body language (shoulders back, level breathing, firm 'no') to prevent her thinking she is higher up the pecking order. I am also big on praising her when she is behaving, even if that is just talking calmly and quietly to her when she leads in nicely. She is a different horse to 2 years ago, although the occasional meltdown shows me that those behaviours will never entirely go away - she also has an underlying medical / pain issue to add another layer of complexity

The emergency 'rope around the nose' when leading in a headcollar has been put to good use a few times too.

Blimey, she sounds difficult! My girl is good in every respect apart from this. I can rug her in the field, do everything with her loose in a large area. It is plain exhuberance. Every few days she has a mad episode in the field and goes galloping full pelt around whilst the other horses just watch her. She has too much energy. Part of me says work her hard every day to wear her out, but I don't want her super fit either!

Nip it in the bud - it's dangerous! I've got one here who goes nuclear if you tell her off, but she has to be reminded to be reasonable, as she's likely to hurt someone during one of her meltdowns about stuff that is usually ok! Some days I can't even get a headcollar on her, as she acts like I'm trying to wrap electrified tape round her. Other days, rugs are dangerous and terrifying. Sometimes, she's not bothered about either! She's also funny about narrow gateways/stable doors - sometimes.
If she's going backwards, I make her carry on backing her up until she drops her head and starts to think, and if she's leaping around, she gets sent forward until she does the same. She's incredibly sensitive/reactive - I moved my thumb from bent to straight the other day, and she jumped like she'd been shot - so you have to be very careful around her when she's in LaLa mode! There's no rhyme nor reason to it either - she can also be really laidback and easy. Different horse to handle every day of the week!

I'm going to ramp it up a bit. I will tell her 'No!' and make her circle tightly each time from now on but keep my energy very low. She's obviously not going to get bored of doing it without me stepping in. That will be my first step I think. See if she gets the message.

 

[SEL]

Blimey, she sounds difficult!

She was heading for a bullet as a 4 year old & I thought it was a shame no-one had given her a chance. In 10 years time she may be a complete dope on a rope, but I do wonder whether the damage was done when she was a baby. One way or another she'll live out her days with me.

 

[Antw23uk]

Mares, eh? Is yours quite bossy? Mine is boss of all the other horses even though she is the youngest and smallest, lol. My last mare was far less bossy with other horses and even seemed more calm and reassured when told off.

Nope, bottom of the pecking order in previous home and constantly moved about by my gelding at home and other than the odd tail swish she never protests. If she wasnt squirting all over the place most of the time you would think she a gelding, lol! Swore I'd never have a mare after a horrendous loan horse a few years ago and the stories my friends tell me about their mares put the fear of god in me but thankfully on a scale of 1-10 for marish behaviour she is a 1.

I think maybe its time to start introducing the odd 'no' and check? Pick your times wisely though because she sounds like she might put you on your arse and we all know we have to pick our fights wisely with these big animals, lol

 

[Wagtail]

Nope, bottom of the pecking order in previous home and constantly moved about by my gelding at home and other than the odd tail swish she never protests. If she wasnt squirting all over the place most of the time you would think she a gelding, lol! Swore I'd never have a mare after a horrendous loan horse a few years ago and the stories my friends tell me about their mares put the fear of god in me but thankfully on a scale of 1-10 for marish behaviour she is a 1.

I think maybe its time to start introducing the odd 'no' and check? Pick your times wisely though because she sounds like she might put you on your arse and we all know we have to pick our fights wisely with these big animals, lol

I just love mares. I always had geldings until my last mare (horse of a lifetime), then I was totally hooked. Current mare won't have another mare in her field though. It has to be a gelding. She's a strange one. Oozes energy and charisma which is what drew me to her as a scraggy two year old. Should have known better, lol.

Interesting what you say about yours being bottom of the pecking order. I have seen a lot of horses that are bossy with humans that are bottom of the pecking order. I think it's because they get pushed about by other horses and think they stand a chance against us weedy humans.

 

[Antw23uk]

I just love mares. I always had geldings until my last mare (horse of a lifetime), then I was totally hooked. Current mare won't have another mare in her field though. It has to be a gelding. She's a strange one. Oozes energy and charisma which is what drew me to her as a scraggy two year old. Should have known better, lol.

Interesting what you say about yours being bottom of the pecking order. I have seen a lot of horses that are bossy with humans that are bottom of the pecking order. I think it's because they get pushed about by other horses and think they stand a chance against us weedy humans.

I've seen that with the boys but then I've avoided mares so never show any interest in them (story of my life, lol!) I think part of her issue with being told off is that she shuts down and doesnt think, just barges or freezes so its difficult to explain. I had to change how I 'spoke' to her and had to get used to asking rather than telling but over the months she has had to get used to me and how I am as well so takes a 'no' a lot better than she used to but there is very much a look she gives if I try and bully her or rush her or just man handle her ... even in the nicest possible way as you do sometimes without thinking you shove them over or expect them to move ... with her I have to think about her and how I am around her but with my boy everything is second nature, nothing is questioned, we just have that 'lads together' vibe where we get on with it so its always amusing when i get 'that look' from her and I just laugh now and say 'Ok princess, would you mind very much ... moving/ stepping over .. whatever' and yet again I'm reminded at how different they can be to the boys. It is great, I am loving it I must admit

 

[_GG_]

Nip it in the bud - it's dangerous! I've got one here who goes nuclear if you tell her off, but she has to be reminded to be reasonable, as she's likely to hurt someone during one of her meltdowns about stuff that is usually ok! Some days I can't even get a headcollar on her, as she acts like I'm trying to wrap electrified tape round her. Other days, rugs are dangerous and terrifying. Sometimes, she's not bothered about either! She's also funny about narrow gateways/stable doors - sometimes.
If she's going backwards, I make her carry on backing her up until she drops her head and starts to think, and if she's leaping around, she gets sent forward until she does the same. She's incredibly sensitive/reactive - I moved my thumb from bent to straight the other day, and she jumped like she'd been shot - so you have to be very careful around her when she's in LaLa mode! There's no rhyme nor reason to it either - she can also be really laidback and easy. Different horse to handle every day of the week!

Yep, definitely nip it in the bud.

I spent years of my life trying to get away from the methods employed by the old nags men I was surrounded by as a child in South Wales. I didn't like what I thought was bullying back then, but now, looking back, I see much of it very differently.

I have a gelding here, very much a cross between the mare at yours Ausalnder and your mare Wagtail. By the way, is this the 3ry old I met when I was there? If so, very much worth the work you're putting in...she's gorgeous.

So, here's where I am on horses like this now. I genuinely believe that we can put ourselves in a vicious circle of encouraging more of the same behaviour through a desire to be good to our horses. I have had one gelding here for 2.5 years now who I have experimented with in how to handle his ridiculousness and it is total ridiculousness. He is absolutely fine with absolutely everything I do with him, but on occasion, he just decides that he doesn't want it anymore, be it putting boots on, being shod, having a bath or even just standing whilst tied. He will give a few little warnings of petulance, then go to total toys out of the pram, sometimes, before I've even had chance to change anything. The more he does and the fitter he gets, the more he's done it. His issue is always around being made to stay in place. He's broken 3 leadropes and a lovely leather head collar in the past month. He's a horse that, without doubt, has learned that threatening to pull back, threatening to rear and then escalating the threats to actually doing it, will make most people back off and try another way. I believe, without doubt that he knows full well that he can dictate things as it's always worked and made people back off.
Now, before anyone tells me that horses can't think like that and I should look at other options first, I have. I've got 10 years of this horses history. I've had the vet out to what myself and the farrier suspected to be a severe break in his pelvic region...only to find out that for years, he's used a trick of pretending to be broken when he's had enough of standing about or has decided he doesn't fancy having his feet done that day. He's had all sorts of investigations, he's absolutely fine.

So, ruling everything out, after the last time he was shod, 2 hours and 10 minutes into it with him being a total idiot. Fine for a little while, then toys out of the pram, breaking leadropes, fine again. Treats have almost always worked, but by this time, he had got bored of them and I had got bored and fed up of being stuck in a position of fear/worry over how far he'd go if I didn't back off. Farrier had his hind up, horse was threatening to rear. I was holding him now as I refuse to let him break away again as he's just learned that works.
I said to my excellent farrier would he be okay to just hold on through whatever came and he agreed. I just held on at the front. Neither of us did anything to him, no raised voices, no pulling back, no yanking, but neither of us released the pressure that the horse instigated. He danced, reared, tried to strike at me but couldn't manage it as farrier still had his hind up. 30 seconds later, he gave up and stood still, so farrier just carried on as if nothing had happened and I did the same.

Since then, he's done it a few more times, which is normal for him, but now, instead of leaving him able to break his tie or leadrop, I hold him and when he goes from 0-60 upwards and backwards, I get in there before him. With the farrier, we needed to be safe. With the other times since then, I make damn sure he knows that there's a negative consequence. I don't hit, but I bring out the bat poo crazy woman AT him. I won't have a horse control the dynamics, it's too dangerous. I've used the same method with a few horses over the years and it's always worked, but with this horse, I genuinely didn't know how far he'd go and the only time he's had a physical consequence was when he realised I wouldn't back down when he was doing his back up and rear routine, so instead jumped straight at me and the leadrope very quickly got spun up so he jumped into that. It stopped him in his tracks.

He's learning. The most recent example was when I was putting fetlock boots on his fronts as he's catching himself in the field. I don't tie any more, but use an extra long leadrope and I had it just looped over the gate and back to my hand. He'd been as good as gold and I've put boots on this horse many many times without issues before. This time, putting the second boot on, he just went up a little and then stamped his leg back down. I didn't react, but tried again, he did the same. I didn't react again and tried once more, but this time he went straight up and back, but because he wasn't tied, I was able to keep hold of the rope, keep the pressure on and I just refused to back off the pressure. He walked backwards from the stables to almost the orchard gate which is about 25 yards, before he just gave up and the very moment he did, I released the pressure, turned around and walked quietly back over to the stables to start again. You can almost see and feel the relief in him when he's been reminded he doesn't call the shots. It's his only issue. He is a dream to ride, his new loaner is absolutely smitten with him, but her and my OH have now been told, he's on a zero tolerance policy now. He's getting 100% consistent handling techniques from all of us and it's actually making him a happier horse.

I guess, what I'm trying to say is, it's possible for them to learn that they can create a fear in us where they have us at the point where we are afraid to push them any further. I now believe that when they get to that point, it's really important to give them a consequence, before they learn they can do it and push us around in all situations.

You know your mare so well Wagtail, you'd know if it was an issue that needed investigating and I have no doubt you'd do everything she'd need if it was. So, knowing it's just toys out of the pram, feed, spring grass or whatever being the reason, they need to know without doubt that they MUST NOT be dangerous around us.

 

[Cortez]

GG: here here.

 

[SEL]

I know this isn't my thread - but I'm actually finding it really useful and a bit of a relief to know there are others out there!

 

[Wagtail]

GG, yes it's the mare you saw when you came, lol. Your gelding sounds pretty intimidating! You are doing very well not to throw the towel in, but as you say he is lovely to ride so he's probably worth it.

My girl never does anything like that and she has never frightened me (yet). I feel extremely calm around her even when she is rearing because I know it is not aimed at me and it is not done to intimidate. It is pure excess energy and frustration. I know I need to convey to her that it is not acceptable behaviour around humans, because, as I say, if she misjudges it then I'm flattened. I don't want to do it by dominance or restraint because we have such a good relationship and she's very much a 'discuss it' mare. But she honestly does not know she is doing any wrong when she does it and so I need to convey that to her. So it's going to be an immediate verbal reprimand followed by either circling or backing up (depending on position and safety). I'll report back to say whether it has helped or not, so long as she hasn't flattened me, that is!

 

[Wagtail]

I know this isn't my thread - but I'm actually finding it really useful and a bit of a relief to know there are others out there!

That's good. I put it up very much for the discussion. I already knew I needed to do something more than just ignore the bad and was interested to hear from others who'd come across similar. This is the HHO at it's best. A wealth of experience and information. It doesn't matter how much experience and years you have with horses, there's always something different that comes along to challenge us!

 

[Lammy]

I know of a horse that can't be reprimanded...if you tell him off he gets dominant/aggressive and ultimately kicks you in the head! If you try to shoo him away from you when in the field this is where it becomes an issue and he'll either charge you or canter in front of you and double barrel, like he did with me :|
We think it's mostly territorial but possibly stemming from never being told as a youngster but is the worst horse I've ever known and I won't go near him again.

I know it's a bit different to your girl but I definitely think you need to be able to tell a horse "no". My own youngster was terrible to tie up and the opposite to yours in that nothing phases him so a normal "telling off" doesn't work as it gets no reaction! However if he's doing something he's not supposed to be doing he gets a soft object launched at his arse. Not very traditional I know but it works! It would scare the **** out of most horses but with him it's a quick shock and he quickly learnt that no matter where I am I can tell him off.

Also if I know he's likely to misbehave he goes out in a dually and it's really helped, he knows he can get in front of me with a normal head collar on but respects the dually and walks by my side on a loose lead.
Good luck with your girl

 

[Wagtail]

I know of a horse that can't be reprimanded...if you tell him off he gets dominant/aggressive and ultimately kicks you in the head! If you try to shoo him away from you when in the field this is where it becomes an issue and he'll either charge you or canter in front of you and double barrel, like he did with me :|
We think it's mostly territorial but possibly stemming from never being told as a youngster but is the worst horse I've ever known and I won't go near him again.

I know it's a bit different to your girl but I definitely think you need to be able to tell a horse "no". My own youngster was terrible to tie up and the opposite to yours in that nothing phases him so a normal "telling off" doesn't work as it gets no reaction! However if he's doing something he's not supposed to be doing he gets a soft object launched at his arse. Not very traditional I know but it works! It would scare the **** out of most horses but with him it's a quick shock and he quickly learnt that no matter where I am I can tell him off.

Also if I know he's likely to misbehave he goes out in a dually and it's really helped, he knows he can get in front of me with a normal head collar on but respects the dually and walks by my side on a loose lead.
Good luck with your girl

It's amazing how different they all are. I like to lead on a loose rope and she walks obediently at my side. These 'explosions' come without warning. One second walking on a loose rope at my side, the next, launching herself or rearing and waving her front legs. However, I do know when they are likely to happen. I had a feeling she would do it this morning, for example. At least she led nicely out of her stable and out of the courtyard, only leaping forwards once we had nearly reached the field. I'd been expecting it all the way! At one time if a routine changed she would charge out of her box almost mowing me down. She stopped doing that with my 'stay quiet and calm' approach and always making her wait with the door open before moving forwards. One time she reared full up twice before we'd crossed the courtyard. Then nothing at all for a year until just lately. Come to think about it, it was the same time of year...

 

[_GG_]

I know of a horse that can't be reprimanded...if you tell him off he gets dominant/aggressive and ultimately kicks you in the head! If you try to shoo him away from you when in the field this is where it becomes an issue and he'll either charge you or canter in front of you and double barrel, like he did with me :|
We think it's mostly territorial but possibly stemming from never being told as a youngster but is the worst horse I've ever known and I won't go near him again.

I know it's a bit different to your girl but I definitely think you need to be able to tell a horse "no". My own youngster was terrible to tie up and the opposite to yours in that nothing phases him so a normal "telling off" doesn't work as it gets no reaction! However if he's doing something he's not supposed to be doing he gets a soft object launched at his arse. Not very traditional I know but it works! It would scare the **** out of most horses but with him it's a quick shock and he quickly learnt that no matter where I am I can tell him off.

Also if I know he's likely to misbehave he goes out in a dually and it's really helped, he knows he can get in front of me with a normal head collar on but respects the dually and walks by my side on a loose lead.
Good luck with your girl

Had one like that at college. It was either a bullet or a severe lesson to learn. I think I've posted about it on here years ago, but in short, when a horse is that aggressive, there's nothing we can do if we don't think outside the box. For me, I asked the yard manager to put her trust in me and she did. I had a balloon and a pin behind my back and when the mare charged me (she really meant it as well...could easily have killed someone), I pulled the balloon around and popped it right in front of her face. We then had about 3 months of her not wanting to go anywhere near a human, but from that, we were able to work with her and retrain her. Never had an aggressive moment from her again, but it's not something I'd advise anyone do unless they really know what they're doing. Luckily for me, there's something to be said for growing up around a load of nags men.

Wagtail...I'm so pleased you still have her, she's stunning. I'd definitely give her an instant consequence when she goes up. If it's her "go to" response, as it was once for my old youngster, there's no saying it won't be her go to response when someone is on her and although my youngster didn't go up high with me, nor was it her fault...it did mean she slipped, flipped and crushed me on the road, so anything that rears in hand around me gets told very bl00dy quickly that it is totally going to mean the end of the world for them.

 

[Wagtail]

Had one like that at college. It was either a bullet or a severe lesson to learn. I think I've posted about it on here years ago, but in short, when a horse is that aggressive, there's nothing we can do if we don't think outside the box. For me, I asked the yard manager to put her trust in me and she did. I had a balloon and a pin behind my back and when the mare charged me (she really meant it as well...could easily have killed someone), I pulled the balloon around and popped it right in front of her face. We then had about 3 months of her not wanting to go anywhere near a human, but from that, we were able to work with her and retrain her. Never had an aggressive moment from her again, but it's not something I'd advise anyone do unless they really know what they're doing. Luckily for me, there's something to be said for growing up around a load of nags men.

Wagtail...I'm so pleased you still have her, she's stunning. I'd definitely give her an instant consequence when she goes up. If it's her "go to" response, as it was once for my old youngster, there's no saying it won't be her go to response when someone is on her and although my youngster didn't go up high with me, nor was it her fault...it did mean she slipped, flipped and crushed me on the road, so anything that rears in hand around me gets told very bl00dy quickly that it is totally going to mean the end of the world for them.

Thanks, GG. Yes, I must admit that is my worry too. I have been lucky enough not to have a rearer under saddle (well not one belonging to me - have ridden a few!). I do worry that this is the way she deals with frustration and they are not small rears. We're talking full up vertical rears. I don't fancy being onboard one of those! Yep, time to get firm. However, I need to be careful that any battle I choose, I am going to win, which is why I will start as mildly as possible and go from there. She will not be getting ridden again until I iron this out on the ground first.

 

[_GG_]

Thanks, GG. Yes, I must admit that is my worry too. I have been lucky enough not to have a rearer under saddle (well not one belonging to me - have ridden a few!). I do worry that this is the way she deals with frustration and they are not small rears. We're talking full up vertical rears. I don't fancy being onboard one of those! Yep, time to get firm. However, I need to be careful that any battle I choose, I am going to win, which is why I will start as mildly as possible and go from there. She will not be getting ridden again until I iron this out on the ground first.

If that doesn't work quickly...prepare yourself mentally to have an all out battle of wits with her. Sometimes, the only way they "get it" is if we go back at them with ten times the energy and intent. If that means she ends up galloping around you in a circle...so be it, just hang on and keep her moving when she wants to quit. Little madam knows what she's doing doesn't she, but it doesn't sound like it's coming from a nasty place, just a petulant place.

 

[Lammy]

It's amazing how different they all are. I like to lead on a loose rope and she walks obediently at my side. These 'explosions' come without warning. One second walking on a loose rope at my side, the next, launching herself or rearing and waving her front legs. However, I do know when they are likely to happen. I had a feeling she would do it this morning, for example. At least she led nicely out of her stable and out of the courtyard, only leaping forwards once we had nearly reached the field. I'd been expecting it all the way! At one time if a routine changed she would charge out of her box almost mowing me down. She stopped doing that with my 'stay quiet and calm' approach and always making her wait with the door open before moving forwards. One time she reared full up twice before we'd crossed the courtyard. Then nothing at all for a year until just lately. Come to think about it, it was the same time of year...

This is actually a lot like my boy. He's always worse in the spring or in winter if he's had to be in for a couple of days - or (because he's a diva) if he's been out in the rain and wind. His go to move is to try and get in front of me and wave his front legs in the air. He ignores any shouting or growling from me as apparently I'm not all that scary so once he's up in the air it's done and there's not much I can do about it so I have to stop it before he gets the wind up his arse. Which is why the dually is so good as a few "half halts" as we walk down the track to the field is enough to keep him listening to me, whereas the head collar is useless. On the days I know he's likely to be a pillock he doesn't get the privilege of a relaxed rein and is constantly checked if I think he's going to try and get his body in front of mine. Youngsters...who'd have 'em?!