Ignoring the bad...

Lammy said:
This is actually a lot like my boy. He's always worse in the spring or in winter if he's had to be in for a couple of days - or (because he's a diva) if he's been out in the rain and wind. His go to move is to try and get in front of me and wave his front legs in the air. He ignores any shouting or growling from me as apparently I'm not all that scary so once he's up in the air it's done and there's not much I can do about it so I have to stop it before he gets the wind up his arse. Which is why the dually is so good as a few "half halts" as we walk down the track to the field is enough to keep him listening to me, whereas the head collar is useless. On the days I know he's likely to be a pillock he doesn't get the privilege of a relaxed rein and is constantly checked if I think he's going to try and get his body in front of mine. Youngsters...who'd have 'em?!
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I know. I'm getting too old for this. Your boy sounds like a handful. I could have prevented it I suppose if I'd led her out in her rope halter and kept her held and checked. I did think about doing that but then thought I didn't want to make her think I was expecting something different and therefore upping the energy IYSWIM? Holding on to them and checking them is upping the anti, but sometimes it may be what is needed and I understand your thinking. That's what my girl does; leap forward to get in front of me then up on her hind legs waving her fronts in the air. Could it actually be dominance and trying to impress on me her superiority? Or is it as I was assuming, just excitement? Maybe I underestimate her intentions? This is a very useful discussion. Thank you.
 
_GG_ said:
If that doesn't work quickly...prepare yourself mentally to have an all out battle of wits with her. Sometimes, the only way they "get it" is if we go back at them with ten times the energy and intent. If that means she ends up galloping around you in a circle...so be it, just hang on and keep her moving when she wants to quit. Little madam knows what she's doing doesn't she, but it doesn't sound like it's coming from a nasty place, just a petulant place.
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No, she is always careful not to hurt me. Last week she went up twice in quick succession. I don't normally have to move out of the way because she keeps a good space between us. But the first rear was a little close and although I didn't want her to move me and so kept my position, I did think, sheesh that's a bit close. It was strange because it was almost as if she noticed it too becaus she came straight back down and rearranged herself to go up again at a much safer distance. I always do my inhand work on a 12 foot like rather than a normal lead rope so it is possible to keep my distance and WOULD step out of the way if I needed to. But am always reluctant to let them think they have moved my feet.
 
This is a really interesting discussion, i have a young mare in at the moment who sounds similar to yours wagtail. However i am convinced hers is not just high jinx as if you ask her to move back in the stable she will threaten to or actually bounce up at you with ears back. I think I've decided with this mare the behaviour is dominance related, however she appears a very anxious horse and has separation issues. I find that taking a firm line and being consistent and standing my ground actually seems to settle her. It's almost like she tries to be dominant and throws her self around when she's anxious and she actually wants you to take control. Some days she's a dope on a rope,it's usually when things unsettle her, noises, routeen changes, lots going on around, even bad weather coming !! They are strange beasts. I've been around horses forever but this mare is really giving me a new angle on behaviours and making me really think what I'm doing and how I'm handling her, you never stop learning with horses.
 
I worked with a pony who you couldn't tell off in the normal way. he'd been abused and was scared of everything but wouldn't cower in fear, he'd come at you. Couldn't raise your voice at him, but he understood the word No. So I just said it in a normal quiet, calm but firm voice "Pony, No" whenever he was pushing boundaries and it was enough to stop him.

I'd cut the feed though. I don't care what feed manufacturers say about feed being for "resting" or "laminitic" horses, that doesn't mean there's no energy in it and a lot of the horses it's aimed at would blow a fuse/get fat/worse if given any feed at all. If the bad behaviour is at this time of year and was before too, then it's probably connected to spring grass, so I'd cut the feed.
 
Wagtail said:
I know. I'm getting too old for this. Your boy sounds like a handful. I could have prevented it I suppose if I'd led her out in her rope halter and kept her held and checked. I did think about doing that but then thought I didn't want to make her think I was expecting something different and therefore upping the energy IYSWIM? Holding on to them and checking them is upping the anti, but sometimes it may be what is needed and I understand your thinking. That's what my girl does; leap forward to get in front of me then up on her hind legs waving her fronts in the air. Could it actually be dominance and trying to impress on me her superiority? Or is it as I was assuming, just excitement? Maybe I underestimate her intentions? This is a very useful discussion. Thank you.
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I think, especially with mine, that it's related in part to trying be a little dominant and control where we're going especially when he's unsure or frustrated about a situation. He was the same with feed when fed in the field, we've moved past that issue now but he used to do the same antic of putting himself in front of me and going up on his back legs "demanding" to be fed there and then. That took me really *******ing him to get it into him that that behaviour is not tolerated, we've not had an issue with feed since and every time he gets feed or a treat he has move back and look away from me until I allow him to eat. Because his rearing is really quite few and far between from what it used to be when we're coming in (and it's more coming in then going out), he's made to stand, walk back, turn and walk a few yards in the other direction before we turn around again and head in. He's only allowed to walk forwards when he waits and if looks like he's about to throw a tantrum he's made to take a few steps back and gets growled at. If I think he's going up again he gets a quick sharp shout and then he seems to register that he's in the ***** and seems to stop having a problem. Although obviously that's a tactic that may not work so well for yours if it's likely to wind her up more.
 
My sensitive & reactive mare with a tendency to wave is generally reprimanded the most effectively with a bloody good growl/vocal telling off. Particularly effective if you catch the eye before anything happens and can keep the rope slack
 
When Sam was a baby I thought the same thing about him!! if I got cross with him he got more and more defensive! however, he will be 7 in a few weeks and now if I raise my voice he soon stops being a k-n-o-b! If he rears he get a swift slap on the shoulder and he stops immediately! once upon a time I was too scared to tell him off because I thought it would make him worse! but they do change as they get older! or maybe boys are just easier!
 
Do do have to cautious with mares who have a greater tendency to show dominance type issues IME .
What command do you her when she does something wrong if you have not taught something you need to .
Here I use a aaa I like that because it's easy it give in different tones and lengths I also use no when they really overstep the mark.
She rising six so less food ( difficult I know when the grass is coming through ) more to think about will help (bored clever horses often become bolsy )horses give much less trouble when they go to bed tired so giving her more to do and more to think about is always going to help.
At this stage you need to show the horse your their leader not their best friend .
 
Horses can hurt you without trying, so don't think they will "protect" you or be "careful not to harm" their owner. ANY form of aggression or dominance from a horse cannot be allowed, ever.
 
whiteflower said:
This is a really interesting discussion, i have a young mare in at the moment who sounds similar to yours wagtail. However i am convinced hers is not just high jinx as if you ask her to move back in the stable she will threaten to or actually bounce up at you with ears back. I think I've decided with this mare the behaviour is dominance related, however she appears a very anxious horse and has separation issues. I find that taking a firm line and being consistent and standing my ground actually seems to settle her. It's almost like she tries to be dominant and throws her self around when she's anxious and she actually wants you to take control. Some days she's a dope on a rope,it's usually when things unsettle her, noises, routeen changes, lots going on around, even bad weather coming !! They are strange beasts. I've been around horses forever but this mare is really giving me a new angle on behaviours and making me really think what I'm doing and how I'm handling her, you never stop learning with horses.
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Very true! My old mare seemed to actually like being told off. It seemed to settle her too. My current mare takes exception to it, however is a darling in the field or the stable, moves back on command, is very gentle etc.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
I worked with a pony who you couldn't tell off in the normal way. he'd been abused and was scared of everything but wouldn't cower in fear, he'd come at you. Couldn't raise your voice at him, but he understood the word No. So I just said it in a normal quiet, calm but firm voice "Pony, No" whenever he was pushing boundaries and it was enough to stop him.

I'd cut the feed though. I don't care what feed manufacturers say about feed being for "resting" or "laminitic" horses, that doesn't mean there's no energy in it and a lot of the horses it's aimed at would blow a fuse/get fat/worse if given any feed at all. If the bad behaviour is at this time of year and was before too, then it's probably connected to spring grass, so I'd cut the feed.
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Fair enough, I'll reduce it to a handful so she still gets a bucket at the same time as the others. It's worth a try as she has way too much energy.

Lammy said:
I think, especially with mine, that it's related in part to trying be a little dominant and control where we're going especially when he's unsure or frustrated about a situation. He was the same with feed when fed in the field, we've moved past that issue now but he used to do the same antic of putting himself in front of me and going up on his back legs "demanding" to be fed there and then. That took me really *******ing him to get it into him that that behaviour is not tolerated, we've not had an issue with feed since and every time he gets feed or a treat he has move back and look away from me until I allow him to eat. Because his rearing is really quite few and far between from what it used to be when we're coming in (and it's more coming in then going out), he's made to stand, walk back, turn and walk a few yards in the other direction before we turn around again and head in. He's only allowed to walk forwards when he waits and if looks like he's about to throw a tantrum he's made to take a few steps back and gets growled at. If I think he's going up again he gets a quick sharp shout and then he seems to register that he's in the ***** and seems to stop having a problem. Although obviously that's a tactic that may not work so well for yours if it's likely to wind her up more.
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ihatework said:
My sensitive & reactive mare with a tendency to wave is generally reprimanded the most effectively with a bloody good growl/vocal telling off. Particularly effective if you catch the eye before anything happens and can keep the rope slack
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Kezzabell2 said:
When Sam was a baby I thought the same thing about him!! if I got cross with him he got more and more defensive! however, he will be 7 in a few weeks and now if I raise my voice he soon stops being a k-n-o-b! If he rears he get a swift slap on the shoulder and he stops immediately! once upon a time I was too scared to tell him off because I thought it would make him worse! but they do change as they get older! or maybe boys are just easier!
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Well she used to react badly when I raised my voice at her, but last time I did it was two years ago so she might have changed.

Goldenstar said:
Do do have to cautious with mares who have a greater tendency to show dominance type issues IME .
What command do you her when she does something wrong if you have not taught something you need to .
Here I use a aaa I like that because it's easy it give in different tones and lengths I also use no when they really overstep the mark.
She rising six so less food ( difficult I know when the grass is coming through ) more to think about will help (bored clever horses often become bolsy )horses give much less trouble when they go to bed tired so giving her more to do and more to think about is always going to help.
At this stage you need to show the horse your their leader not their best friend .
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Yes, she understands aaa. I use it when lunging if she's misbehaving. She definitely needs to be in proper work, that's for sure. Problem has been me. Just as I think I'm well again I get ill. This time I'm hoping I'm properly on the mend and she can have some consistency.

Cortez said:
Horses can hurt you without trying, so don't think they will "protect" you or be "careful not to harm" their owner. ANY form of aggression or dominance from a horse cannot be allowed, ever.
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I agree. Thing is, I have not been seeing it as dominance or aggression because she doesn't show it in any situation other than when she's frustrated. So I have viewed it as her being young and unable to control her exhuberance. However, this maybe a misunderstanding on my part. Whatever the reason behind it, I have to put an end to it. Ignoring hasn't worked this time.
 
The hooligan has had an abusive past, and although he has now been with me for 6 years, the effects of it are still evident when he does something he knows is wrong. Three times since I've had him, he's bitten me. But before I've even registered what he's done, he will shoot away and stand shaking in his stable. I can only assume he's been battered for similar behaviour and is awaiting a beating.
If you raise your voice, he goes into a complete and utter meltdown and his usual answer is to stand up.

My way of correction on the ground is to move his feet, back him up and speak in a firmer voice than normal, so he knows the difference but is not frightened.
I will admit he got a rare smack a few months ago when he quite visciously bit my back as I turned away - through 3 layers of thick clothing, he drew blood, caused a wound the size of a fist and has actually left a scar. I immediately felt awful as he was genuinely very upset about the situation, but if he'd have got my face I dread to think what would have happened and he needed to know that was completely unacceptable.

Under saddle, if he is told off, he actually has a quivering meltdown and his behaviour becomes heightened. Again, I am firm and persistent, I try to defuse the situation but also insist that he gives me the correct answer, even if it takes some time.

When I bought him, on his first hack out, he went a little behind my leg as we left the yard and I felt him begin to nap. He ignored my leg and with no whip, I instinctively gave him an encouraging but actually very light thwack with the reins on either side of the neck. It was the tool that always worked with my Dales and I did it totally out of habit. He stood up. Lesson learnt instantly from my point of view!
 
scats said:
The hooligan has had an abusive past, and although he has now been with me for 6 years, the effects of it are still evident when he does something he knows is wrong. Three times since I've had him, he's bitten me. But before I've even registered what he's done, he will shoot away and stand shaking in his stable. I can only assume he's been battered for similar behaviour and is awaiting a beating.
If you raise your voice, he goes into a complete and utter meltdown and his usual answer is to stand up.

My way of correction on the ground is to move his feet, back him up and speak in a firmer voice than normal, so he knows the difference but is not frightened.
I will admit he got a rare smack a few months ago when he quite visciously bit my back as I turned away - through 3 layers of thick clothing, he drew blood, caused a wound the size of a fist and has actually left a scar. I immediately felt awful as he was genuinely very upset about the situation, but if he'd have got my face I dread to think what would have happened and he needed to know that was completely unacceptable.

Under saddle, if he is told off, he actually has a quivering meltdown and his behaviour becomes heightened. Again, I am firm and persistent, I try to defuse the situation but also insist that he gives me the correct answer, even if it takes some time.

When I bought him, on his first hack out, he went a little behind my leg as we left the yard and I felt him begin to nap. He ignored my leg and with no whip, I instinctively gave him an encouraging but actually very light thwack with the reins on either side of the neck. It was the tool that always worked with my Dales and I did it totally out of habit. He stood up. Lesson learnt instantly from my point of view!
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Heck! You sound an amazing owner. I don't think I could deal with that kind of aggression, whether it is based on fear or not. Many years ago a horse I was checking for her owner nearly took my arm off with her teeth. I was just leaning over her stable door to check if she had any haylage. I was thankfully wearing about five layers as it was mid winter but my arm was black from shoulder to elbow. After that I was terrified of her. I have never known fear like that of any horse. After she had bitten me she also ruptured my trainer's spleen and broke her owner's ribs, so I think I got off lightly. If I'm honest I would have PTS if she was mine. Instead, she was sold for close to £10k to a 15 year old aspiring show jumper. I often wonder what happened to her (or her new owner). Your boy sounds MUCH better that that mare, but would scare me for sure and I applaud you for being such a good owner.
 
i hate to say it, but I don't think they try not to hurt us, they are simply clever and spacialy aware that they don't actually want to land on us as they want to keep their balance.

some horses need telling off and even a wack with a stick at times. but some, like yours, and my mare, don't take it on board. I have to ask my mare, not tell her, but she has gone from rearing up to lead out of a field (she had been mistreated in a terrible loan home before I bought her off the original owner) and nearly impossible to hack alone, to a happy hack even after 7 months off due to pregnancy and childbirth. this took years. But it I personally think was because I was firm but fair. I recognized when she was scared and gave her time, but also she often was just being a stubborn mare! I would then be firm- hold her with a bit in if she was going to go up (at first I had hat, gloves, bridle and lunge line just to bring in) tell her no, back her up, but not try and beat her in strength as that wont work!

she also sounds a little like my friends gelding, who we joke is autistic, as he is a donkey a lot of the time, but any change and he will rear, prance sideways into you, jump all 4 feet off the ground, and he is nearly 18 hands so not safe. But normally it just takes a growl from me and he behaves! But he needs to have his routine varied really so he gets bored, and not so stuck in his ways really.
 
Mine has bitten me - usually relating to food.

Last time she left me with an enormous bruise on my arm (through thick winter clothing). Just so happened I had a schooling whip in my hand - I was just tidying up rather than being armed - but she got an immediate and almighty thwack on the neck. She hasn't launched herself at me in the stable since.

Like most difficult horses it's a behaviour that humans have inadvertently taught her - changing those behaviours is the tough bit.
 
Wagtail said:
Heck! You sound an amazing owner. I don't think I could deal with that kind of aggression, whether it is based on fear or not. Many years ago a horse I was checking for her owner nearly took my arm off with her teeth. I was just leaning over her stable door to check if she had any haylage. I was thankfully wearing about five layers as it was mid winter but my arm was black from shoulder to elbow. After that I was terrified of her. I have never known fear like that of any horse. After she had bitten me she also ruptured my trainer's spleen and broke her owner's ribs, so I think I got off lightly. If I'm honest I would have PTS if she was mine. Instead, she was sold for close to £10k to a 15 year old aspiring show jumper. I often wonder what happened to her (or her new owner). Your boy sounds MUCH better that that mare, but would scare me for sure and I applaud you for being such a good owner.
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The other two times were no where near as bad as this last time. He's very grumpy to rug up and I'm normally very on the ball. He gets warned, via voice and me never turning my back while rugging him, but I was talking to my friend and I went from doing the front straps and moved towards his side to do the surcingles and he turned and grabbed me. I normally warn him via voice and body language as I move around him and he does listen, so I partly blame myself for not being on the ball. He has never kicked or even raised a leg, even at the height of his grumpiness, so I never feel any fear around him, I just keep any eye on the teeth when he's in a strop, but its genuinely only rugging and feeding that cause this aggression. I would never move him on to anyone else. He had had six homes that we know of in the first seven years of his life, and that's with two years unaccounted for. He has a wonderful life now and is actually a very happy horse (rugging aside!). I made it my mission to ensure he has a safe and forever home with me. He's a good lad really.
 
I am in the ignore the bad behaviour camp to a certain extent, but you really do need to know your horse to do this. I have two at opposite ends of the spectrum. The nervous carthorse had some real issues and I would react with kindness and tell him all was ok. Once he had gone to a specialist breaker who ignored the nervous behaviour and just quietly insisted on the horse doing as he was asked, I realised my very 'there's a good boy' way was actually reinforcing the nervous behaviour. The breakers view was 'ok, you might not like it but no one is hurting you so you will just have to get over yourself because I am going nowhere'. The horse is 6 soon and very nearly the finished article of manners, confidence and happy obedience.

The bought in mare on the other hand came to me at 5 and totally dominant, arrogant and nasty at times. She simply went wherever she fancied regardless of me. A dually and bluepipe sorted her out and interestingly, as soon as she had boundaries she changed instantly. The barging and biting stopped, she produced a lovely smiley face and actually wanted to be with me. I have had her 5 years now and hardly remember the initial behaviour.

As Cortez says you have to be their leader regardless, how you achieve it can vary greatly though. I also don't think they actively try not to hurt you, if there is only one way out of the situation they don't like and you are in the way, they will hurt you.
 
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AdorableAlice said:
I am in the ignore the bad behaviour camp to a certain extent, but you really do need to know your horse to do this. I have two at opposite ends of the spectrum. The nervous carthorse had some real issues and I would react with kindness and tell him all was ok. Once he had gone to a specialist breaker who ignored the nervous behaviour and just quietly insisted on the horse doing as he was asked, I realised my very 'there's a good boy' way was actually reinforcing the nervous behaviour. The breakers view was 'ok, you might not like it but no one is hurting you so you will just have to get over yourself because I am going nowhere'. The horse is 6 soon and very nearly the finished article of manners, confidence and happy obedience.

The bought in mare on the other hand came to me at 5 and totally dominant, arrogant and nasty at times. She simply went wherever she fancied regardless of me. A dually and bluepipe sorted her out and interestingly, as soon as she had boundaries she changed instantly. The barging and biting stopped, she produced a lovely smiley face and actually wanted to be with me. I have had her 5 years now and hardly remember the initial behaviour.

As Cortez says you have to be their leader regardless, how you achieve it can vary greatly though. I also don't think they actively try not to hurt you, if there is only one way out of the situation they don't like and you are in the way, they will hurt you.
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Its interesting isnt it how you where with the softly softly approach compared to the trainer. I've done both and I still can but i'm in the same camp as the trainer 99% of the time ...... I know its not nice, you might not want to do it, yes it might be a bit scary but you arent going to die and no one is trying to kill you so yes please, lets crack on and get it done shall we, do as I say theres a good girl ... yep that it, nope, still not dead are you so not that bad .. and I literally just keep going because I know I am not going to give up 'asking' until I get the 'answer' that I want. One doesnt need to do that in a bullish way I've very quickly learnt by having a mare ;)
 
Antw23uk said:
Its interesting isnt it how you where with the softly softly approach compared to the trainer. I've done both and I still can but i'm in the same camp as the trainer 99% of the time ...... I know its not nice, you might not want to do it, yes it might be a bit scary but you arent going to die and no one is trying to kill you so yes please, lets crack on and get it done shall we, do as I say theres a good girl ... yep that it, nope, still not dead are you so not that bad .. and I literally just keep going because I know I am not going to give up 'asking' until I get the 'answer' that I want. One doesnt need to do that in a bullish way I've very quickly learnt by having a mare ;)
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The one I did sort out in a bullish and very firm manner was a dominant mare, as soon as she realised she could not continue in the way she did with her previous owner she changed so quickly. It just shows how individual all our horses are and how important it is to treat them as individuals.
 
AdorableAlice said:
The one I did sort out in a bullish and very firm manner was a dominant mare, as soon as she realised she could not continue in the way she did with her previous owner she changed so quickly. It just shows how individual all our horses are and how important it is to treat them as individuals.
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She probably felt a lot happier from being relieved of her duties as top mare? My mare is far from dominant but again, like yours, she needs to be lead, she needs to know that she doesnt have to 'wing it' because its my job to show her the way.
 
Antw23uk said:
She probably felt a lot happier from being relieved of her duties as top mare? My mare is far from dominant but again, like yours, she needs to be lead, she needs to know that she doesnt have to 'wing it' because its my job to show her the way.
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Had a few of those types. I actually think we have a duty of care to them when they are like that to step up and free them from the stresses of feeling they need to take charge. So much nicer seeing them without that stress.
 
I have a dominant mare who used to do this - she would, on occasion, come up on being brought in and unchecked she would try and do the same to you loose in the field. It was never nasty (in that she'd always leave distance between you) but it was intimidating and a pia. I always ignored it but an injury left me feeling more vulnerable and less tolerant - I reviewed everything I did with her and took a zero tolerance approach. I got a dually for leading too. It's took months and the odd relapse when she was looked after by others (she can spot a softie a mile off) but she's foot perfect to handle etc. I no longer use the dually and she's gone from rearing with farrier to lifting her feet for me for picking. I freely admit I was scared of her. It wasn't one specific thing (though the dually was a godsend) I just gave her no wriggle room on anything. I now need to do the same with another mare who's manners have gone to s::t since my new horse arrived a couple of weeks ago!! All flaming mares!
 
Ceriann said:
I have a dominant mare who used to do this - she would, on occasion, come up on being brought in and unchecked she would try and do the same to you loose in the field. It was never nasty (in that she'd always leave distance between you) but it was intimidating and a pia. I always ignored it but an injury left me feeling more vulnerable and less tolerant - I reviewed everything I did with her and took a zero tolerance approach. I got a dually for leading too. It's took months and the odd relapse when she was looked after by others (she can spot a softie a mile off) but she's foot perfect to handle etc. I no longer use the dually and she's gone from rearing with farrier to lifting her feet for me for picking. I freely admit I was scared of her. It wasn't one specific thing (though the dually was a godsend) I just gave her no wriggle room on anything. I now need to do the same with another mare who's manners have gone to s::t since my new horse arrived a couple of weeks ago!! All flaming mares!
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Well done sorting that out! Thankfully, my mare is a dream to do in all respects other than this one problem when handling or working in hand. It's never when she doesn't want to do anything, just when she wants to go and I have hold of her. So I guess it could be a strop because she is frustrated that I am stopping her doing something SHE wants to do (usually gallop round like a loon, dig up the arena and roll). I think I need to challenge her brain a bit. Use up her mental energy. She gets bored extremely quickly. I think that is why she was so good to back. She was bored of lunge work and inhand stuff, but someone sitting on her was new, and she really behaved!
 
Wagtail said:
Well done sorting that out! Thankfully, my mare is a dream to do in all respects other than this one problem when handling or working in hand. It's never when she doesn't want to do anything, just when she wants to go and I have hold of her. So I guess it could be a strop because she is frustrated that I am stopping her doing something SHE wants to do (usually gallop round like a loon, dig up the arena and roll). I think I need to challenge her brain a bit. Use up her mental energy. She gets bored extremely quickly. I think that is why she was so good to back. She was bored of lunge work and inhand stuff, but someone sitting on her was new, and she really behaved!
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I've admitted defeat on riding her di not 100% success - she caused the injury (and many more) so I don't think I'll ever trust her to ride (though now she's a dream to handle I do find myself having to remind myself what damage she caused in case I get carried away)! Bwfore my zero tolerance I would accept stuff because I would explain why she'd done it (she also bit me 3 times - once pretty hard) - new approach changed that. There was no acceptable reason for the behaviour - the dually as I said worked brilliantly to sort the rearing (I never once had to really bully her but I did have to be firm and I did always have to get her to do what I wanted). Now I have to do that with my other mare who's brain has gone with the arrival of a new horse. I'm going to start with a dually with her too.
 
Wagtail said:
Well done sorting that out! Thankfully, my mare is a dream to do in all respects other than this one problem when handling or working in hand. It's never when she doesn't want to do anything, just when she wants to go and I have hold of her. So I guess it could be a strop because she is frustrated that I am stopping her doing something SHE wants to do (usually gallop round like a loon, dig up the arena and roll). I think I need to challenge her brain a bit. Use up her mental energy. She gets bored extremely quickly. I think that is why she was so good to back. She was bored of lunge work and inhand stuff, but someone sitting on her was new, and she really behaved!
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To be honest it sounds like she is just long overdue doing some proper work.
 
_GG_ said:
Had a few of those types. I actually think we have a duty of care to them when they are like that to step up and free them from the stresses of feeling they need to take charge. So much nicer seeing them without that stress.
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My old wb was like that, she needed to know her boundaries, could not feel like she was I'm charge at all even in the feild she had to have a dominant mare telling her why to do as she couldn't cope in that position and became nasty.

I did a lot of ground and halter work as she would sometimes go up when being led in so the "correction" was moving her feet, we would spend time to and from the feild doing our ground work and she learnt to just focus on me
 
Wagtail said:
Could it actually be dominance and trying to impress on me her superiority?
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No, it doesn't sounds like that to me at all.

Or is it as I was assuming, just excitement?
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Quite possibly the behaviour is driven by excitement, yes.

Can you correct the behaviour in a more direct way than by reprimanding? Doing that is often more effective because 1) the correction is linked and therefore closer in time with the offending action and 2) you don't have to get angry and you can keep your energy low throughout. A more direct punisher would be e.g. letting the horse bump itself or "run into" the rope (which usually means jerking it at the same time as the horse would take up the slack anyway, which in turn means that there shouldn't be a lot of tension in the rope when the leap starts).

You say that your mare responds badly to a yank on the rope. Would these be yanks that happen after the leaping forward or at the same time? If they're coming after, your response could be better timed.

If they're happening at the same time, you could try toning then down, make them less abrupt. Find out what works better, do more of it, and keep repeating until you get a long lasting change in behaviour.

I think you are a good judge of your mare's general attitude and demeanour. My worry is that you allow yourself to be persuaded that there is a problem with her attitude (dominance etc.), diverting you from dealing with the behaviour and into attempting to show that you are more dominant (for instance) and get yourself into a much worse mess, losing her trust and souring the relationship.
 
fburton said:
No, it doesn't sounds like that to me at all.


Quite possibly the behaviour is driven by excitement, yes.

Can you correct the behaviour in a more direct way than by reprimanding? Doing that is often more effective because 1) the correction is linked and therefore closer in time with the offending action and 2) you don't have to get angry and you can keep your energy low throughout. A more direct punisher would be e.g. letting the horse bump itself or "run into" the rope (which usually means jerking it at the same time as the horse would take up the slack anyway, which in turn means that there shouldn't be a lot of tension in the rope when the leap starts).

You say that your mare responds badly to a yank on the rope. Would these be yanks that happen after the leaping forward or at the same time? If they're coming after, your response could be better timed.

If they're happening at the same time, you could try toning then down, make them less abrupt. Find out what works better, do more of it, and keep repeating until you get a long lasting change in behaviour.

I think you are a good judge of your mare's general attitude and demeanour. My worry is that you allow yourself to be persuaded that there is a problem with her attitude (dominance etc.), diverting you from dealing with the behaviour and into attempting to show that you are more dominant (for instance) and get yourself into a much worse mess, losing her trust and souring the relationship.
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I am so pleased you have responded to this, fburton. Because this has been my unwavering instinct up until now. She is doing it just because she is excited and can't contain herself. She is so not an aggressive horse. She's one of the very few horses I have trusted to press their lips against my cheek for a long nuzzle. Even my last mare, who I loved beyond words, I would never have trusted to do this. In the field or stable, my mare is not at all dominant. I can do everything I want with her when she is eating her feed. However, with so many experienced and capable horsepeople on here, and the fact that my ignore the bad is not working in this instance, I have allowed myself to be swayed alittle, so I am pleased to have a view closer to my own instinct from you.

Regarding the yanking, on reflection I think that yes, it has been badly timed. I used it as a reprimand a split second after regaining control, so she may have reacted badly due to this. ie. she returned to me, got a yank and a telling off. You make a very good point regarding this. She's a smart horse and will take offence at such blunders. The problem is her outbursts come so fast, and out of a calm, seemingly relaxed walk so it's going to take some expertise to time the pull at exactly the right moment.
 
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