I'm back in one piece... just about!!!!!!! Futurity Championships

cruiseline

cruiseline

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Well I'm back from my trip to the Futurity Championships. Met some HHO members and their lovely babies.

One thing I did manage to get while I was over was the worst stinking cold I have had in years!!!!! Streaming nose, sore throat and a hacking cough!!!!! Flying back was no fun what so ever, I couldn't get my ears to pop, very painful.

I have mixed feelings about the final!!!!! I did like the Champion yearling and both the reserves, lovely babies. However, I was very confused with some of the other results. Lots of the horses presented would not have been out of place in a middle/heavy weight hunter class!!! I could not see how their athleticism mark could have been high as in my opinion a horse carrying that much weight does not move. My horses all looked like skinny hat racks in comparison (which they are not).

We got the comment that one of the 2 year old that we bred (but sold as a yearling) was very nice, but over weight (which in my opinion she is) so was put down the line, her owner went home totally confused and bewildered with the whole thing, as horses that were border line obese were being placed and I really did not know what to say to her.

My Florencio colt was brought in 4th in his class, which was our best result of the day
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here is the link to his photos, although the last 2 1/2 rows are not him, unless he changed colour half way through his presentation!!!!!!!!

http://www.greenlees-equine.com/portfolio39317.html

We had the comment about one of our babies from the judges, that if it had been carrying more condition it would have walked away with the class!!!!!!!! He then offered to buy it, as he said it was superb. So yes I am very confused as to what exactly the judges were looking for and are the finalist suppose to look like middle/heavy weight hunters, because if that is the case, then I will not be attending another futurity championship show class!!!!!!!!!

I also think that not jumping the 3 year olds was a big mistake, I would have loved to see just how some of them actually got over a fence with all the extra weight, judging jumpers in only walk and trot is ridiculous and did cause a lot of confusion as to how they came to the result they did. Using just a walk and trot evaluation in hand, any possible athleticism that they might have shown in their qualifier was definitely not obvious to spectators for the final. The judges must have been blessed with super powers to see if any particular horse was capable of a decent jump!!!!!!

So basically if future futurity championships are not conducted in the same manner as the evaluations (which I thoroughly enjoyed), I don't think I will be bringing any more youngsters to the finals.
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I really hope this does not sound like sour grapes, it is certainly not meant to be, it is just that I was really confused and bewildered by the whole thing.

But on a positive note, they all behaved themselves beautifully, bathing, loading, travelling, standing around, trotting up and back home in one exhausted piece
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Hi Cruiseline - I recognised your daughter there - we were in the same class as your sj foal with the hunter mare who looked completely out of place
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. Don't think I saw you there though - perhaps next time. Bad luck re your cold - must have been something to do with the day/weather as I've now got tonsilitis and a streaming nose!
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I walked past some shirts with your surname one - didn't dare say hi, couldn't hang around either though as a friend took me there.

Well done anyway
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Hi Cruiseline - I recognised your daughter there - we were in the same class as your sj foal with the hunter mare who looked completely out of place
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. Don't think I saw you there though - perhaps next time. Bad luck re your cold - must have been something to do with the day/weather as I've now got tonsilitis and a streaming nose!
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I remember your foal, very nice and extremely entertaining, hope the handler didn't get too many bruises
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he certainly was enjoying himself
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I walked past some shirts with your surname one - didn't dare say hi, couldn't hang around either though as a friend took me there.

Well done anyway
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Were we really that scary that you didn't dare to say hi.
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I remember your foal, very nice and extremely entertaining, hope the handler didn't get too many bruises
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he certainly was enjoying himself
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Thank you Cruiseline - the last laugh will be ours at the end of the month when he's cut
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I walked past some shirts with your surname one - didn't dare say hi, couldn't hang around either though as a friend took me there.

Well done anyway
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Were we really that scary that you didn't dare to say hi.
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Nope!! I am just the biggest wimp, plus I couldn't work out which one was you while walking past you and you all looked like you were quite busy so I didn't want to disturb you.
 
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i think his weight looks perfect!
seems an odd comment.
he is obviously very healthy- over fat babies look awful.

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It wasn't him that they said was over weight it was this one, and I 100% agree with the judges, she is far too over weight, her owner has done her too well.

http://www.greenlees-equine.com/portfolio39289.html

My comment regarding over fat horses was actually regarding the judging of a different discipline, and there were many that got placed that were fatter than her
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Which really confused her owner and us too.
 
I was there and would not have said that any of the horses were overtly fat or heavy. Which ones were you pertaining too?

Hunters

The above link shows what middleweight and heavyweight hunters look like and there is not one horse on the day that in my mind looked in any way like that.

Regarding slightly larger horses - I also have a 4 year old in-foal mare at home who is pleasantly plump (very good doer!!
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)and I can say with my hand on my heart that the weight she is carrying does not inhibit her fabulous movements at all.

It is a shame you were not happy with the result. I personally thought that the horses all looked superb and that is was great to see so many nice British bred horses in one place, and that if you look at the pictures many would not be out of place in Europe.
 
I did not say that I was not happy with any results, I actually said I was confused by the results, which are two different things!!!!!!!!!

The extra weight on the filly I bred, certainly did inhibit her fabulous movement as was the comment correctly made by the judge on the day!
 
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I was there and would not have said that any of the horses were overtly fat or heavy. Which ones were you pertaining too?



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Do you honestly think I would name any particular horse on an open forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (apart from the one I bred)

I am not that stupid, I will let others make their own assumptions, and I am sure several did without my input.
 
Hiya, good to meet you at the show and have a chat, your horses were gorgeous and i didnt get to see them perform but i just loved your little filly foal, beautiful elegant head on her!
 
Doesn't sound at all like sour grapes to me, hun - and that just wouldn't be your style anyway.
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It does sound as though you were given some very contradictory messages - not surprised you are a bit confused.
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I have only seen photos of a few of the horses - just the ones bred by other HHO members - so can't comment on the weight/condition of the others, and anyway I wouldn't have a clue what sort of condition is required at this event - your Florencio boy looks perfect to me, and a very nice sort! If your other horses were in similar condition, I can't imagine why that judge said one of them needed more!?

But maybe if you posted some more pics of yours someone here might be able to help clarify things?
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I posted after I attended the futurity and got shot down for a comment that my other half (not very horsey) made about "cobs". I got shot down for this! What my husband actually meant was there were a lot of over weight horses. I do agree that some of the horses were carrying a little too much weight. These are after all sport horses, not show horses. The BEF state in their own fact sheet that they do not want to see horses presented in 'show condition'. Unfortunately in my opinion a few were.

My own boy is very lean, not thin, but compared to a few others he did look thin.

Over weight youngsters can experience problems later in life (as can conformational faults) and therefore should being overweight be reflected in their evaluation mark?

Anet - I would hope that none of the horses at the Futurity would look like the horses on the showing website - they are mature horses and youngsters certainly should not look like that!

Had my boy qualified I am not sure what I would have done, I had a conversation with my other half about this while he was still in a qualifying place. I had a big problem with the show jumpers and eventers not being jumped. In a show jumper the trot isn't particularly important and in an eventer the gallop is very important, also the jump of course. Show jumpers and eventers should have the chance to really show off their horses in more than walk and trot. This is as much use as everyone submitting a photo and a video, it would save the fuel getting there as well!

I do think that the series is a fantastic idea. I do feel that there are maybe some double standards. I will probably get shot down for my post - AGAIN! But this is my opinion.
 
A friend of ours took her 3yr old to the champs. He is in show condition as he is shown in hunters inhand. I don't agree when you say that horses in show condition are not as athletic or cannot move properly when they are in good condition, this particular horse moves extremely well, hence why he is shown. He gained 9.75 for Athleticism and jumped 1.15m and got 9.75 for his jumping at Catherston!
 
Personally I didn't see any one horse or foal, although not there all day I grant you, that was what I'd describe as over fat.

I did see a few, mostly broodmares, that I thought needed more condition, and I don't say that from a showing perspective before anyone gets cross with me.

Just that if they were mine I'd have wished them to carry more wegiht to help them feed their foals etc.
 
from where we were sat I didnt see any I would have said were fat, like we see in the show ring every week. I could only see the dressage and show jumping classes.
The hunter youngstock shown in hand at county level are a lot more developed!

I thought most of the youngsters we saw had a nice topline and condition without being too heavy. Some could have been a little lighter and some needed more topline iMHO but generally nothing like I see every week bumbling round a show ring.
 
Hope that colt was ok that had the accident!!

Ditto whoever it was above about not jumping the 3yos, would have possibly helped the atmosphere and given the people watching something to watch. Also regarding the athleticism marks, a number of competitiors thought that these would be available to the judges, especially in the 3yo SJer/Eventer classes so that the judge at least would have an idea of how the horse jumps? Without these being made available it made the 'first rounds' a waste of time.

A panel judging at the finals may also help improve the judging, as the first rounds were judged as a panel. Was just interesting that the two top scorers of the series were only 3rd and 4th in their respective classes.

I really like the idea of the Futurity and i'm glad someones really trying to promote british breeding of correct horses with potential to be superstars.
 
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Also regarding the athleticism marks, a number of competitiors thought that these would be available to the judges, especially in the 3yo SJer/Eventer classes so that the judge at least would have an idea of how the horse jumps? Without these being made available it made the 'first rounds' a waste of time.

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Each steward assisting in the two arenas had a list of the athleticism scores for every single horse, which they could refer to and give the judge(s) that score at such time as the horse was in the ring being judged.
 
Ok,
firstly the judges did have the athleticism scores available and it did have a bearng on the final placing of some.
Secondly, there were two judges for each disapline, the 'celebrity' judge and an assesor that had been at the futrity assesments.
Thirdly,the horses were judged on the day and what was seen was rewarded,the top scoring youngster did not show well and the owner knows that so it was given the place it deserved on the day.
As for fat horses , during the series it has been mensioned if the assesors thought that a youngster was overtopped that it would be a good idea to keep an eye on it as it may have developmental reprocussions. For sure, at the final there were no fat horses to the point of being restricted and the horse Cruisline was talking about had lost some weight but was still, in the judges opinion [ both judges i may add] carrying too much condition and resulted in it not getting a higher place.
As for the rest of CL's youngstock they seemed fine but were lighter on condition than some and lighter on condition than they had been at the Grange.As with all youngsters they are a 'shifting sand' when it comes to them being 100% what you want when you want it. Stress of travel , bathing the whole lot can make a difference. I am not however coming on here and making the point that those lighter horses should nnot have been there.
The young stock that was presented was ALL of EXELLENT quality and everyone should be proud of what they have acheived with their youngsters.
i dont think for one minute that there were any double standards and the judging was clear and well thought out.The practicality of jumping and time was an issue and i am sure that will be discussed at the 'de-brief' As will many of the points that have been raised here.
This is by no means a perfect or finished product, like the horses that are being bred is not a perfect system it will, i hope continue to evolve and i hope will improve the Britsh bred horse.
 
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Hope that colt was ok that had the accident!!

Ditto whoever it was above about not jumping the 3yos, would have possibly helped the atmosphere and given the people watching something to watch.

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Particpants from last year *demanded* a final attached to a high profile event. This naturally casued time restrictions, hence the lack of a jumping lane.

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Also regarding the athleticism marks, a number of competitiors thought that these would be available to the judges, especially in the 3yo SJer/Eventer classes so that the judge at least would have an idea of how the horse jumps?

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I can assure you that the judges were told the athleticism marks -- espcially in the jumping section but perhaps the real problem is that riders (whoch the judges at the final were -- as *demanded* by the feed back last year have a different way of looking at a horse from an evaluator hence the variation in positions even when the atheleticism/jumping marks awarded at the evaluations were taken into account.

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Without these being made available it made the 'first rounds' a waste of time.

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Absolutelt DOES NOT invalidate/make a watse of time the 'first rounds' as you call them. These first rounds are actually the core of the evaluations and it is the scores for each horse from that these that enter NED as the raw data from which the Equine Breeding Values (EBVs) will eventually be developed. The resulst of the Finals will be recorded for champions and reserves as show results (don't know about the lower placings) but becuase the judges werr not trained evaluators they cannot form any part of the statistical resulst data needed for the EBVs.

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A panel judging at the finals may also help improve the judging, as the first rounds were judged as a panel.

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Feedback from last year *demanded8 judging at a final by a single 'specialist' rider for each section. That was what was provided.

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Was just interesting that the two top scorers of the series were only 3rd and 4th in their respective classes.

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Personally I always thought that becuase:

(i) the judges were riders not trained evaluators (at participants request)
(ii) the way it was run was slighty different (although do remember that this is the first year that all animals at all quaifiers were shown loose (anotehr participant *demand*)
(iii) being as much as 7 weeks later in the year than the earliest evaluations so some animals will have changed (superficially at least)for growth/development reasons

there would be a somewhat different set of results (except perhaps in dressage) and there would always be a conflict between the two sets of results and just such a discussion as this would be the result.

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I really like the idea of the Futurity and i'm glad someones really trying to promote british breeding of correct horses with potential to be superstars.

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Thank you for that. The organisers do try eveyr hard to get the system right and take on board the demands of the participants. Its when they backfire, people don't get the results and complain as a result -- even though the system is trying to reflect the requirements of the majority of those taking part (bearing in mond that no system can satisfy everyone) that it gets frustrating.

This year's wash up meeting -- when the changes that should be made for 2009 are discussed-- and to which quite a few HHO members who have provided input and help in the past 12 months have been invited-- will be interesting, but aging <sigh> whatever is decided some people will be unable to view it in the widest aspect of what is ebst fro British breeding and will croticise the changes becuase they find that they do not fit their own particular requirements.

Sorry off soapbox now as have to go to Burghley to help with the stallion parade.
 
just to add> where in the world can you get the best in the business to comment on your horses, cant imagine Yogi pulling out a 'fat' horse as top for eventing, would be
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for 2009> please please please trot up on secure ground and not on gravel....*not demanding just asking nicely in a quiet voice*

that actually is the only neg comment i have, think the whole thing can only be 'good' for british breeders/breeding and WOW havent we seen some of those through the futurity, which has intern, i feel, really lifted the profile well!IMO
 
WOW, I really seem to have ruffled a few feathers here!

Firstly I would like to point out that I whole heartedly feel that the BEF Futurity evaluations are a fantastic opportunity for British breeders and breeding, they are the way forward and I certainly will be supporting the evaluations again in the future.

I do however feel that the championship was more of a "showing class" than a true representation of the sports horses put forward and why they had received the marks they did in their evaluations. That is where my confusion has come from.

I am not denying that there were some stunning youngsters on show, but that is exactly what it was, a show. After all if the evaluation system is working, those present were the best in the country from hundreds put forward.

With regard to the comment made about my youngsters and their condition. I look at it this way, at least I know that I am not putting unnecessary weight and stress on young developing tendons, ligaments and joints in order to win a red rosette as a baby. They have been bred for the future and the future is where they will perform at their best.

One good day in the "show ring" is insignificant if they are unable to complete a lifetimes career in the competition arena.

My comments were in no way meant to offend anyone, I would not be so rude as to point a finger, even though the finger has been pointed at my youngsters (thank you).
 
I have been informed that on the whole condition was within reason. There have been plenty of photo's posted so I am sure we can get an idea from them. I think there have been more positive comments then negatives, so hopefully baring any incidents, that is if my boys can stay out of trouble for long enough I will try to get mine out. I agree it is well worth while having someone else assess them. They are only human & I dont expect that they will get it right all the time, but it is a start. If it add's value to these horses then how benificial is that for everyone.
 
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Firstly I would like to point out that I whole heartedly feel that the BEF Futurity evaluations are a fantastic opportunity for British breeders and breeding, they are the way forward and I certainly will be supporting the evaluations again in the future.

I do however feel that the championship was more of a "showing class" than a true representation of the sports horses put forward and why they had received the marks they did in their evaluations. That is where my confusion has come from.


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I agree 100% !
 
i am sure it said somewhere that the finals were going to be more of a showing class than an evaluation. I went with the understanding that it would be so. With the judges picking the one that they preffered. But that was just my understanding, however i can say that in my opinion horses were not marked up or down on their condition as i am sure if they had my mare would not have been awarded second in the broodmare class.
 
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