Vizslak
Well-Known Member
It must do however brave you or the horse are.
In defence of Ashdale Cruise Master
- Thread starter Black Beth
- Start date
It must do however brave you or the horse are.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
you didn't gasp at the way he jumped into the Lake?
sorry, the whole way round I was expecting it. same with Ingrid's round. honestly.
sometimes you can just see it coming.
sorry, the whole way round I was expecting it. same with Ingrid's round. honestly.
sometimes you can just see it coming.
WoopsiiD
Well-Known Member
Thats what I thought.
Even if I did 4* 7 days a week a spill like that and a journey in the air ambulance would always be at the back of mind.
Vizslak
Well-Known Member
I gasped at the lake and thought 'oh no he's got dangly legs again' and yes from that point whilst thinking Oli was riding him well I could see a fall coming
falaise
Well-Known Member
Oliver Townend gets far too much grief on here!! He worked hard for everything hes got, and whether hes an 'aggresive' rider or not, hes had some superb successes with a variety of horses.
I also understand him walking away from the horse. His immediate reaction after the fall was to look at/turn to the horse. The horse got up, OLLIE loosened the girths whilst the horses leg was untangled and he walked the horse forward. YES the horse was stiff, but what difference would Ollie leading the horse rather than a member of his team make??!! And imho Ollie looked uttely dejected - I think its not just the people on here that know something needs to be done about this combination, but also Ollie himself knows it. Hes worked bloody hard to try and make it work, I think he rode the horse well til he started tiring, but at the end of the day, something isn't working and he will probably lose the ride, and knowing this probably made him very sad
PS. BB That is a beautiful collage of pictures you have of the horse. I think he is stunning
I also understand him walking away from the horse. His immediate reaction after the fall was to look at/turn to the horse. The horse got up, OLLIE loosened the girths whilst the horses leg was untangled and he walked the horse forward. YES the horse was stiff, but what difference would Ollie leading the horse rather than a member of his team make??!! And imho Ollie looked uttely dejected - I think its not just the people on here that know something needs to be done about this combination, but also Ollie himself knows it. Hes worked bloody hard to try and make it work, I think he rode the horse well til he started tiring, but at the end of the day, something isn't working and he will probably lose the ride, and knowing this probably made him very sad
PS. BB That is a beautiful collage of pictures you have of the horse. I think he is stunning
Honey08
Waffled a lot!
I think that OT is getting a hard time on here, when he rode really well until the quarry, IMO. He has always been a strong, determined, forward rider, which may not have quite suited the horse, but he stayed balanced and helped the horse at the lake when others would have fallen off.
I've also had a lesson with him, and he was very horse-sympathetic.
Years ago I groomed for a pro male eventer, who was very competitive and in the zone at competitions, and who would have walked away in a similar fashion until he had calmed down. Just because he didn't hug the horse doesn't make him evil - he didn't exactly leave the horse on its own.
I also think that we won't see him on this horse again - and that he had perhaps had his mind made up at the quarry - and that he had mentally distanced himself from the horse. I would think after nearly killing himself last year with that horse, perhaps it had just used up it's "one more chance" - á la WFP - if it leaves a leg again its off the yard... To a professional, competitive rider its not hard to switch off a horse without regret. Its a job not a hobby (not saying its right). I've also worked for another ex badminton rider who mostly trains nowadays, and every working pupil that went to her yard was very matter of factly told to get rid of their (much loved) horse that they brought with them if they wanted to make it. Its another kettle of fish for a pro. Not saying all are like this, but many are.
It will be interesting to hear what OT statements or HH columns say on this topic.
I've also had a lesson with him, and he was very horse-sympathetic.
Years ago I groomed for a pro male eventer, who was very competitive and in the zone at competitions, and who would have walked away in a similar fashion until he had calmed down. Just because he didn't hug the horse doesn't make him evil - he didn't exactly leave the horse on its own.
I also think that we won't see him on this horse again - and that he had perhaps had his mind made up at the quarry - and that he had mentally distanced himself from the horse. I would think after nearly killing himself last year with that horse, perhaps it had just used up it's "one more chance" - á la WFP - if it leaves a leg again its off the yard... To a professional, competitive rider its not hard to switch off a horse without regret. Its a job not a hobby (not saying its right). I've also worked for another ex badminton rider who mostly trains nowadays, and every working pupil that went to her yard was very matter of factly told to get rid of their (much loved) horse that they brought with them if they wanted to make it. Its another kettle of fish for a pro. Not saying all are like this, but many are.
It will be interesting to hear what OT statements or HH columns say on this topic.
soupdragon71
Well-Known Member
A picture paints a thousand words.....
We were concerned about ACM after the fall as he did look very sore and tired. OT undid the girth and then walked off. We watched ACM all the way back and OT didn't even look back at the horse.
There really is no bond there and no bond in my opinion means that you don't have the crucial partnership needed to do 4*
Wasn't going to comment on this post but this photo reminds me of Burgie a few years ago - Oli didn't have a good weekend and had a few falls. I saw him come down the hill a bit too quick and horse tipped up over the upright palisade and he didn't stand a chance to stay on. A woman in the crowds caught his horse, he grabbed reins off her (didn't say thank you) and threw himself back on it's back to give it a slap and a dig in the ribs, then retire and stomped back to the stables. He decided to go hime before showjumping day - obviously not worth waiting for, and made himself look like a spoilt brat. I didn't really have an opinion of him then, but I certainly do now!
Totally agreee that there has to be a bound with your horse - they have to want to do it not just for themself but for their team mate!
I really hope that the owners get to the bottom of what is going on with ACM - he was a seriously good horse and now is looking a bit tired and lacklustre about the whole thing. Was really surprised to hear Ian Stark talk about how he can be a bit dangly with his front legs.
The contrast between him and Land Vision was very apparent - both tired but LV really picked up and finished well (and SJ'd well the next day). Maybe his heart just isn't in it anymore?
dominobrown
Well-Known Member
I think you are onto something there. I don't think the horse looks happy. When jumping he sometimes looks to be 'climbing' or under jumping. Its like he is saving himself. When horses have done that previously it has been to leg problems and the horse is trying to 'save' itself strain. I think there could be a leg or back problem somewhere there...
Has the horse had any soundness issues in the past?
SusieT
Well-Known Member
Yes I gasped at the lake-and I hadn't expected the horse to leave its legs the way it was presented/previously jumping. V surprised and impressed horse and rider stayed upright!
Whoever said about oli going home pre-sj-I assume all his horses were elim etc. or he was injured? Given you said he had a few falls?
Whoever said about oli going home pre-sj-I assume all his horses were elim etc. or he was injured? Given you said he had a few falls?
henryhorn
Well-Known Member
I see the bunny huggers have crept into here too (sorry but really, slating the man for allowing someone else to lead his horse back? !! )
If you had just suffered a crunching fall off a horse that damn near killed you last year I would imagine you would want a some time to calm down and breathe..
Once that horse got back to the stables you can be certain the rider would have been around to check him over and advise what treatment to give him.
No-one knows what was going through the rider's mind at the time, for all we know he could have been devastated thinking it was possibly the final straw.
Yes he is a very strong rider but he's also a damn good one, and he helped that horse at every jump, he's also a brave one after that dreadful fall last year. Some riders would have declined to compete it again.
Reading everyone else's views I think this horse really isn't happy at this level for some reason, rider/pain/lost his confidence whatever, and needs to step down and enjoy life again. If after some HC comps he regains his lovely jump and zest then it's obvious he needs to drop back and perhaps be a schoolmaster at a low level or do dressage/SJ instead. After all , I'm sure his owners desperately want him to be happy.
If you had just suffered a crunching fall off a horse that damn near killed you last year I would imagine you would want a some time to calm down and breathe..
Once that horse got back to the stables you can be certain the rider would have been around to check him over and advise what treatment to give him.
No-one knows what was going through the rider's mind at the time, for all we know he could have been devastated thinking it was possibly the final straw.
Yes he is a very strong rider but he's also a damn good one, and he helped that horse at every jump, he's also a brave one after that dreadful fall last year. Some riders would have declined to compete it again.
Reading everyone else's views I think this horse really isn't happy at this level for some reason, rider/pain/lost his confidence whatever, and needs to step down and enjoy life again. If after some HC comps he regains his lovely jump and zest then it's obvious he needs to drop back and perhaps be a schoolmaster at a low level or do dressage/SJ instead. After all , I'm sure his owners desperately want him to be happy.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK7IqtTJJAs
Here is a vid of his round. Lets see, flower pots, a little over controlled is only real thing you could say. Sunken road-sesnibly opts for the easier route and v. clever corner jumping - suggests to me Oli not confident in the horse jumping cleanly through.
Lake approach-Just watch as he gallops up, oli just letting the horse go at his own pace. Last stride horse should just have popped into the lake but instead just plopped. He does look a bit dull-perhaps a veterinary issue there I suppose, still no excuse for leaving a leg!
Through the gate/double brush complex, again, I don't see this pushy aggressive rider some of you are seeing?
Or how are you all seeing this round?
Here is a vid of his round. Lets see, flower pots, a little over controlled is only real thing you could say. Sunken road-sesnibly opts for the easier route and v. clever corner jumping - suggests to me Oli not confident in the horse jumping cleanly through.
Lake approach-Just watch as he gallops up, oli just letting the horse go at his own pace. Last stride horse should just have popped into the lake but instead just plopped. He does look a bit dull-perhaps a veterinary issue there I suppose, still no excuse for leaving a leg!
Through the gate/double brush complex, again, I don't see this pushy aggressive rider some of you are seeing?
Or how are you all seeing this round?
thumperbos
Well-Known Member
I thought his riding of the xc was really good, I too gasped when he left a leg going into the lake and there was no rhyme or reason as to why he left a leg at the quarry (when tired horses picked their feet up).
But I think in this instance that a great deal if respect and sympathy is due to Oli Townend for putting his faith in this horse after a very nearly serious accident at Kentucky. Trust me when I say that it takes a lot to climb onboard a ride at 4* after a cracking fall like that, especially when everyone is telling u to watch it. And in this Olympic qualifying year, I can only imagine his disappointment after putting his trust in this horse.
I wouldn't want to comment much on ACM except to say that often after a horse takes a heavy fall like in Kentucky they very often try to protect themselves in the future by 'paddling', not in every case but very often as a protective measure.
But I think in this instance that a great deal if respect and sympathy is due to Oli Townend for putting his faith in this horse after a very nearly serious accident at Kentucky. Trust me when I say that it takes a lot to climb onboard a ride at 4* after a cracking fall like that, especially when everyone is telling u to watch it. And in this Olympic qualifying year, I can only imagine his disappointment after putting his trust in this horse.
I wouldn't want to comment much on ACM except to say that often after a horse takes a heavy fall like in Kentucky they very often try to protect themselves in the future by 'paddling', not in every case but very often as a protective measure.
soupdragon71
Well-Known Member
No, he had a lorry load there, and was quite well up with a few in the lower classes so was expected to be there showjumping (falls were all with his more advanced horses). It was also the same year that his then girlfriend, Piggy French, got a bit of a telling off for carrying on with a very tired horse - Chicago. Despite Burgie making sure that all competitors knew that they needed a very fit horse to get round they didn't have their horses prepared. They were not the only southern based riders caught out, it has to be said.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
And how sure are you he wasn't injured? All it takes is eg. a groin strain from having a 'few falls' to make a rider unable to ride the next day. It is wasy to judge withuot facts. Just seeing it from both sides.
BEUnderTheInfluence
Well-Known Member
I watched with huge admiration ACM being ridden beautifully by Emily at Blenheim in 06 and thought jeesh what a horse. I was absolutley devastated when he was taken over by Oliver, then duely crashed in his attempt at the grand slam. Crashed again at Badminton. God, I feel for Emily having to look on at the horse she made being wasted by a rider that a) doesn't really need the ride and b) doesn't really seem to be gelling with it, just reaping rewards or ploughing it into the ground. Christ I bet she can't sleep at night, how horrid.
Vizslak
Well-Known Member
well said, better than I put it!
Woodykat
Well-Known Member
Especially knowing how he went about getting the ride in the 1st place (although in his defence I guess you can't fault his business sense!)
There's a very interesting interview with him in Horse mag atm....
soupdragon71
Well-Known Member
You're right - I have no idea if he was injured, but the way he vaulted up on the last one he fell off I would say there wasn't a lot wrong with him!! I don't want to get into an argument about Oli but at the time he was known for being a bit too competitive - too many horses and spreading himself a bit too thin. And wasn't impressed with the way he dealt with the woman who caught his horse! No need for that.
Have been in that situation before (from both sides) and always very grateful, especially when horse had managed to tangle his bridle around his legs!!) My instant reaction is 'is horse ok' but maybe I'm a bunny hugger!! I only have one to compete so he is quite precious. And also had a very grateful pro thank me for catching his escapee.
Cyrus
Well-Known Member
I get saddened by this forum and the flack it gives to OT yes this pairing seem to not suit but this guy cares about his horses and will be saddened by what happened on sunday and ACM will be getting every bit of care needed.
marmalade76
Well-Known Member
How was that? Please spill!
CalllyH
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure oli will be known as a top rider we will give much respect too to be honest. I think sadly if he and his management maybe spent more time looking at good horses and producing them for big events than they do making oli t calendars an ripping off people to join his 'fan club' then he might actually have another successful year.
BronsonNutter
Well-Known Member
Maybe ACM and OT will not be a four star combination, but I don't think that's because neither of them are capable - they both are, as proven by OT winning Badminton & Burghley, and ACM completing with Emily - just seemingly not together.
I'm not a particularly big fan of OT (mainly for a reason that has not been mentioned on this thread, and I don't think it's particularly common knowledge... I also don't like the way he seemingly 'poaches' horses he likes - but it seems quite a lot do that...) and I am just wondering if ACM may be hurting somewhere, as well as having no confidence in his rider. He just didn't look happy imo, especially when compared to those older photos of him with Emily, or in comparison to other 4* horses like Opposition Buzz or Lenamore, just skipping round.
I'm not a particularly big fan of OT (mainly for a reason that has not been mentioned on this thread, and I don't think it's particularly common knowledge... I also don't like the way he seemingly 'poaches' horses he likes - but it seems quite a lot do that...) and I am just wondering if ACM may be hurting somewhere, as well as having no confidence in his rider. He just didn't look happy imo, especially when compared to those older photos of him with Emily, or in comparison to other 4* horses like Opposition Buzz or Lenamore, just skipping round.
Vizslak
Well-Known Member
^^^LOL I agree with this to point! But you can't fault the mans business sense! Those calenders, clothing range, membership fees must be extremely helpful in helping fund the yard and horses and olivers career! You cant say you wouldnt do it! He is popular with the younguns (and a fair few 18-30's!) and fair play to him you can't really damn him for cashing in! I sure would!
He's got some lovely horses coming up through right now, notebly I reckon Jeepers creepers will be the one to watch for the future, pure class. Possibly the horse out of his own stallion he has just taken the ride on as well, Power line?
He's got some lovely horses coming up through right now, notebly I reckon Jeepers creepers will be the one to watch for the future, pure class. Possibly the horse out of his own stallion he has just taken the ride on as well, Power line?
Woodykat
Well-Known Member
I also have a reason not mentioned here yet - hehe, i wonder if it's the same as yours.....?
this is what i was pointing at with my last post - it's all in the interview, inc how he's been told by other riders that he's not welcome!
(apparently anyway!)
Cyrus
Well-Known Member
Fully agree two very very nice horses especially Powerline, him and O already seem to make a great pairing and to those who think he feels nothing for his horses should have seen him wrapped around this horses neck after the SJ at Isleham he was literally hugging him
Trolt
Well-Known Member
Quoted SusieT but could have been anyone with a similar viewpoint
Completley agree. I'm an eventing groom, and I'd much prefer it if the rider handed me the horse and walked off to collect themselves, than acted aggressively (because they are annoyed) with the horse.
The top riders know when it has been their fault, and they are disappointed and angry. It is even more frustrating if you only have yourself to be cross with! They know the horse will be well treated and looked after by the groom ... that is afterall, why they have grooms.
I don't blame Oli for taking a few moments to calm himself down and gather his thoughts. As someone else said on here (which I hadn't considered) this horse almost killed him at Kentucky. Maybe he needed a few moments to consider what he'd say to the owners and decide whether it is worth risking?
Have met Oli at numerous events and he's always been lovely. Have watched him ride some very tricky horses and he's been an utter joy to watch. As for cashing in on it all ... I would to! Very astute, all it would take is one fall and his career would be over, why not try and set up other avenues and make the most money whilst you can??
gabanna
Well-Known Member
amyneave
Well-Known Member
I stood and watched ACM and Oli through the lake, and he left a leg going in. From where I was stood Oli looked well to sit as well as he did, and then get the horse out the straight way. He looked very tired as he approched the lake. I think maybe as he gets near the end, he gets tired and doesn't pick up so well.
amage
Well-Known Member
Slightly different situation but recently we ran a horse in a pt2pt. It is the only horse we trained that my OH actually owned and we had really high hopes for him. The horse had always had bad luck with silly injuries but this season we finally got him right and he was in top form. Cruising along two from home he stopped still for no apparent reason (we later discovered he had bled in his lungs but it hadn't shown). His jockey was 100% sure he was going to win until he stopped as he hadn't even asked him for anything yet and had less than half a mile to go. OH was gutted and couldn't even look at the horse/wash him off and didn't come back to the horsebox till time to leave. I did off the horse and settled him again. I was livid at the time till we got home and OH and unloaded horse and burst into tears. He knew from the minute he went wrong that we would have to retire him and he was so upset he knew that he couldn't have kept his composure so waited until we were home. I would hazard a guess that this may be a similiar reaction to Oli's. He could have been killed off the horse, the two of them had to work bloody hard to get healed and fit and together again, he had masterfully planned the sunken road in the easiest most time efficient manner for the horse and was having a great spin until the lake.
Black Beth
New User
As stated in my op my intention was not to start a new "Oliver bashing " thread. I am far from being an expert and have nothing but admiration for any of you that compete at this level. However, I do believe that, having watched ACM at numerous events, he was not happy from the outset on Sunday. I do not feel qualified to comment on anyones riding on that day but I do know that riding is a partnership.
Yes I do have a connection to Emily in that I have had the privilege of watching her bring ACM throuh the grades. After watching the pair jump round Burghley twice I believe they were capable of great things (my opinion). After all there is a certain amount of luck involved and without the 20 penalties incurred in 2009 and them having to them take the long route at that fence they would have been very close to the optimum time. I for one call a potential top 10 placing competitive!
In my opinion the dye was cast the day the decision was made to take the horse from Emily and aim him at Kentucky. Had ACM had more experience at that level or had Oliver taken the time to build a partnership with the horse things might be different. Maybe they are a partnership that will never work, maybe there is a mechanical problem now and yes they are an accident waiting to happen(which none of us wants to see).
The point I was trying to make is that the horse had enormous potential and we may never know what he might have achieved!
Yes I do have a connection to Emily in that I have had the privilege of watching her bring ACM throuh the grades. After watching the pair jump round Burghley twice I believe they were capable of great things (my opinion). After all there is a certain amount of luck involved and without the 20 penalties incurred in 2009 and them having to them take the long route at that fence they would have been very close to the optimum time. I for one call a potential top 10 placing competitive!
In my opinion the dye was cast the day the decision was made to take the horse from Emily and aim him at Kentucky. Had ACM had more experience at that level or had Oliver taken the time to build a partnership with the horse things might be different. Maybe they are a partnership that will never work, maybe there is a mechanical problem now and yes they are an accident waiting to happen(which none of us wants to see).
The point I was trying to make is that the horse had enormous potential and we may never know what he might have achieved!