In defence of Ashdale Cruise Master

kirstyhen said:
As for OT and ACM, I don't have enough knowledge to comment, but I feel sorry for OT. He gets a hell of a rough ride from pretty much everyone on here, when I think his riding has changed immensely in the last few years and through that sunken road complex, thought he looked brilliant.
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I agree. What's everyone's beef with OT?!
 
Gosh this thread is bizarre, I'm in awe I didn't realise we had so many 4* riders in our midst to give us the benefit of their experience.

I agree with Henryhorn and I feel that whatever our level of experience only Oli T and the ACM team know or will be able to find out what is going on. Yes it is sad when a rider loses a ride but that's professional eventing and it happens all the time.

Also in response to the comment about tired horses at the sunken road I sat there for a long time including for EPs fall and a lot of horses did leave a leg there some were very lucky to stay upright.

By all means ponder what went wrong but give the guy a break, I'm no fan but it seems pointless to drag up old experiences of him I think he rode a good round, certainly at the point I saw them.
 
It may be a partnership thing, maybe the horse goes better for a female, maybe it's something else entirely who knows!
To me he 'looked' fit, he seems a big horse but he looked lean as a whippet but maybe he wasn't that fit?
I don't know much about Oli Townend apart from that he has obviously put everything he has to get to the top, he's very very competitive but that's why he's done so well?! I think he always seems really nice in his interviews and when I've seen him on TV, he always speaks sensibly about his horses. He was saying in the commentary box before he rode round on Saturday that ACM has got a bad name after kentucky but the horse didn't deserve it as he was an amazing horse. I feel a bit sorry for Oli, it must be really frustrating. Maybe he has been too competitive and gone about things the wrong way sometimes but he's still fairly young, late 20's? It's all stuff he will learn, at least he's going for it and helping Britain to win medals.
 
I know someone that used to train acm when he was with emily and she says they found the more you held his head the more he droped a leg.
That said I was at the quarry to witness olis fall, also to see mark todd ride his horse over. Both acm and Lv were obviously very tired, oli also when I saw him very light hands, so in this instance I wonder if it was due more to the horse being tired.
Lv was equally tired the difference being luckily for mark is he does not have a habbit of dropping a leg. Both oli and Mark rode very well.

I do not go for oli bashing he is a very talented rider with a lot of drive and determination, who has a target and will go for that target whatever it takes something to be admired imo, lets face it to start with he had nothing but himself so to get where he is has to be aplauded. That said I would love emily though to have acm back ( I think she still has part ownership of the horse ).

Oli certainly did not go straight home in this instance as later in the evening he was in the bar, so one of our group went up to him and asked if the younger members (14yolds ) could have their photo taken with him, not only did he say yes he also turned round and pulled on the arm of a blonde sitting down saying you'll want this one as well, this one as well turned out to be xara phillips, thankyou oli and xara you made their day.
 
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oldvic said:
The reason he was sent Topping was that he was consistently stopping with his previous rider and he needed some strength, grit and determination to get him going. He was pretty successful on him.
Emily did produce ACM very well but there comes a stage where they have to step up from being nannied round to going up a gear and becoming truly competitive - they are, after all, COMPETITION horses. If you leave it too long then they can't cope when taken to the edge of their comfort zone as they need to quicken their reactions and aren't used to it. This horse has a very long stride and finds it hard to stay adjustable after a certain time and this was a major factor in his fall in Kentucky - he didn't have a great distance because he couldn't shorten - and if they can't adjust and bring their weight back more onto their hind legs then they will be more inclined to leave a leg. I agree that here he fell because he was very tired but this sort of course would be more tiring for this sort of horse than a bouncy horse like Lenamore who is always "on his feet". For a top rider a horse needs to be able to be ridden competitively - it is the point of their job and trying to win is what they are there for.

Oli was very successful on Land Vision (not out of the 1st 3) in the year he rode him including winning the intermediate championship.
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Nobody is disputing that he is a very good rider. He did an excellent job with Topping until their crunching fall at Burghley at the bounce out of the water... when, iirc, the horse had a moment's doubt and tried to add a stride that wasn't there.
I firmly believe you cannot drive a horse at every fence and expect it to get round. At some point the doubt creeps in and nobody is strong enough to shove a reluctant horse over a fence, be it 2' high or 4*... it happened this weekend for KO'C and Mandiba at the Outlander Bank (she did nothing wrong other than ride him to the fence, perfectly, she got a great shot to it, he jumped up perfectly, but (because of what had happened at the previous fence?) his heart wasn't in it), and to Ruth Edge, whose horse showed he wasn't 'taking her' the moment she lapsed very slightly from her perfect position (the hold on the course didn't help her at all though, I appreciate that.)
Back to topic, I think ACM shows his reluctance/tension physically, by starting to be slow with his leading knee when he starts tiring (or, in Kentucky, when he was put very deep, which he's not used to with someone of OT's accuracy).

I disagree 100% that if the horse is taken more slowly, "nannied" as oldvic put it, "if you leave it too long then they can't cope when taken to the edge of their comfort zone as they need to quicken their reactions and aren't used to it. "
To use a very high profile example, Horton Point had never been taken fast, he'd been beautifully produced by Ros and Lynn Bevan but neither was a speed merchant, particularly Lynn - a SJ at heart - who had ridden the horse in the previous few years. She was injured, the catch ride went to Mark Todd the week of Badminton. The horse got a real shock at the first steeplechase fence (story told in MT's autobiography iirc) when the person on top didn't set him up as he expected, just kept coming fast and left him to it, and they nearly fell... but he learnt VERY fast from that and they did a foot-perfect clear inside the time as pathfinders... that old horse had NEVER been taken xc at that speed but wasn't flummoxed, didn't doubt, didn't leave knees down or lose his style... his reactions were fast enough after that one blunder. Okay, he had The Master on him, so maybe that's an unfair example, but I hope it shows that taking a horse slowly (for years and years in his case) did not prevent him from being taken fast later, very successfully.

I don't think it should be the end of ACM's 4* career, fwiw. He usually jumps very tidily until he's tiring. I'd just like to see him taken a little more slowly, get a nice one under his belt, for the sake of both their confidence...
 
Not a fan of OT's style of riding, but it works with some horses.

In this instance though, 3 horse falls in just over 12months suggests there is something seriously wrong with the partnership. No idea what the horse fall at Lincoln was like on their second outing, but the one at Lexington and the one at Badminton were crashing falls that surely will dent their confidence together. Yes they have had successes in between the two but the one at Badminton was obviously going to happen at some point. As the commentator said, they had used up their nine lives from the lake onwards.

The horse looked tired (as did others) but this horse was making mistake after mistake. Perhaps next time OT will pull up rather than plugging on.
 
kirstyhen said:
As for OT and ACM, I don't have enough knowledge to comment, but I feel sorry for OT. He gets a hell of a rough ride from pretty much everyone on here, when I think his riding has changed immensely in the last few years and through that sunken road complex, thought he looked brilliant.
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I'll disagree with this slightly Kirsty - he gets a rough ride from pretty much everyone on here who has commented. As ever, when these posts descend into the HHO post-big event hysteria, and the sniping starts, I believe who hasn't commented speaks more loudly than who has.
 
meardsall_millie said:
I'll disagree with this slightly Kirsty - he gets a rough ride from pretty much everyone on here who has commented. As ever, when these posts descend into the HHO post-big event hysteria, and the sniping starts, I believe who hasn't commented speaks more loudly than who has.
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Agreed, I'm a "know nothing" lurker but the lack of replies by certain users on various threads definitely speaks volumes.
 
MegaBeast said:
I would disagree WoopsiiD, at the moment of immense disappointment whether it's your fault, the horses fault or just simple rotten luck I can totally empathise with the not wanting to look at your horse feeling. Been there, done that got the t-shirt. And no one could have a stronger bond than I do with my mare but it is possible, when something is really important to you, that you feel so emotionally let down, upset, devastated etc that you just don't want to see your best friend. Especially in this case where he would know the horse is in the best of hands and he probably feels both gutted and humiliated. fwiw he wasn't the only rider who walked off in the opposite direction to their horse (and I'm not referring to K O'C).
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agree agree agree!!
there have been times when Im so angry at myself/my horse where I cant stand to look at him/her, we have all been there!
and how many riders that have ridden round a 4* course stay to play pat the pony?!!
at the end of the day the girl that produced him might have done a very nice job and got him to that level but Oli is there to do a job and isnt being paid to canter him round just so that the owners can wear nice badges for the week!
Its well documented that during XC phase the british riders are told to get round and not worry about looking pretty & the riders quoted to be more stylish (e.g WFP etc) have up to 20 years experience over Oli, Its easy to sit behind your computers and slag these guys off but I bet given the opportunity none of you would say any of this to his/their faces!!
 
amy_b said:
agree agree agree!!
there have been times when Im so angry at myself/my horse where I cant stand to look at him/her, we have all been there!
and how many riders that have ridden round a 4* course stay to play pat the pony?!!
at the end of the day the girl that produced him might have done a very nice job and got him to that level but Oli is there to do a job and isnt being paid to canter him round just so that the owners can wear nice badges for the week!
Its well documented that during XC phase the british riders are told to get round and not worry about looking pretty & the riders quoted to be more stylish (e.g WFP etc) have up to 20 years experience over Oli, Its easy to sit behind your computers and slag these guys off but I bet given the opportunity none of you would say any of this to his/their faces!!
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i've been angry with horses, but NEVER after a mistake xc, no matter how disappointed i was. if i'd just put a horse on the floor (and most horse falls are imho rider error in some way) i'd want to console the horse, not murder him. ;) ;)
do you really think that riders who do take horses slightly slower UNTIL they feel they can safely go faster, such as WFP, are "being paid to canter him round just so that the owners can wear nice badges for the week"?! It is all part of a big scheme.
LC is a prime example, she had everything to play for, but she rode with a maturity well beyond her tender years to bring that horse home nicely clear. She could have gone faster, if she'd got the time she could perhaps have won her first ever Badminton... but she rode slightly slower (and nobody ever said 'canter round' fgs) for a super clear and a top 10 placing.
Other very young riders also rode very very well, and sensibly - Lauren Shannon, Alice Pearson. They did super clear rounds that will have done their horse's confidence the world of good. I hope their day will come...
there are 4* riders who obviously dote on their horses, i can think of quite a few.
you know what, i don't say anything on here i would say to someone in person.
 
what I meant is that in my personal experience where the horse has done something wrong (and im NOT saying it wasnt my fault for whatever reason!!!;)) personally I would often leave him/her so that i dont take it out on them!
and the ones that as i said 'canter round' (i mean give them a nice clear) are usual first time riders or first time horses and i dont think that anyone can disagree with that, I didnt say WFP does that. but this wasn't the horse's first 4* and it wasnt OT first 4* so shouldnt have a need to go steady to give him a confidence run, if anything thats something to save for the significantly sheaper one-days?
I do think there are people out there who want the horse just to get round (cue badge comment:rolleyes:) and if I was offensive i apologise, what i mean is those people are usually proud to get their horses to that level and arent there for the prize money pre se, correct me if im wrong but I dont think this is the case with the top riders and its not fair to give OT all the stick for one mistake at one event when there are riders much better and much worse up and down the country making mistakes on a daily basis, I dont remember Harry Meade getting this much stick for horrifyingly (sp?!) bad horsemanship with dunauger a couple of years ago at burghley(i think?!)
and as for the young riders I dont need any persuading, I go to Bramham every year and see them at various events throughout the season and am in a constant state of envy that somebody in my age group can be so competitive alongside the very best in the sport.
 
Trust me, HM got a huge amount of stick on here for his one-off brainstorm...
the stick for OT is absolutely NOT for "one mistake at one event", it's for 3 HF on the same horse within a fairly short period of time (just over a year). that's a statistic anyone would be concerned about, however illustrious the rider or horse. if that horse had never hung a knee before it'd be different.
the thing is, i think you're still misunderstanding me. there is a huge gulf between 'going for the time' and 'going for a good clear' to the extreme of 'just hacking round for a completion'. i think if this horse was ridden for 'a good clear' rather than 'the time' he'd have more chance to remember to get that leading knee up when he gets a bit tired... and maybe he wouldn't win, but he'd prob get a nice top 10 placing... isn't that better than ending up on the floor again?! also, sometimes 'going for a good clear' gets a win, even at 4*... e.g. Cool Mountain last year at Kentucky. WFP has been quoted as saying he was really surprised to win, he didn't go out there to win, or attempt to get the time (at the horse's first 4*).
i can see a huge diff between, say, getting 10 time penalties and 40... if this horse was just taken a little bit slower i think he'd cope far better and not lose his style so disastrously. just mho though obv.
 
Well I agree with everything you just said...!
maybe the problem is by the time he realised the horse was tired the damage was done, anybody in a competitive position is going to set off for the time surely? and is it fair to blame the rider aaaalll the time? seems to be a silly horse to me!! ;)
 
kerilli said:
I firmly believe you cannot drive a horse at every fence and expect it to get round. At some point the doubt creeps in and nobody is strong enough to shove a reluctant horse over a fence, be it 2' high or 4*... it happened this weekend for KO'C and Mandiba at the Outlander Bank (she did nothing wrong other than ride him to the fence, perfectly, she got a great shot to it, he jumped up perfectly, but (because of what had happened at the previous fence?) his heart wasn't in it), and to Ruth Edge, whose horse showed he wasn't 'taking her' the moment she lapsed very slightly from her perfect position (the hold on the course didn't help her at all though, I appreciate that.)
Back to topic, I think ACM shows his reluctance/tension physically, by starting to be slow with his leading knee when he starts tiring (or, in Kentucky, when he was put very deep, which he's not used to with someone of OT's accuracy).

I disagree 100% that if the horse is taken more slowly, "nannied" as oldvic put it, "if you leave it too long then they can't cope when taken to the edge of their comfort zone as they need to quicken their reactions and aren't used to it. "
To use a very high profile example, Horton Point had never been taken fast, he'd been beautifully produced by Ros and Lynn Bevan but neither was a speed merchant, particularly Lynn - a SJ at heart - who had ridden the horse in the previous few years. She was injured, the catch ride went to Mark Todd the week of Badminton. The horse got a real shock at the first steeplechase fence (story told in MT's autobiography iirc) when the person on top didn't set him up as he expected, just kept coming fast and left him to it, and they nearly fell... but he learnt VERY fast from that and they did a foot-perfect clear inside the time as pathfinders... that old horse had NEVER been taken xc at that speed but wasn't flummoxed, didn't doubt, didn't leave knees down or lose his style... his reactions were fast enough after that one blunder. Okay, he had The Master on him, so maybe that's an unfair example, but I hope it shows that taking a horse slowly (for years and years in his case) did not prevent him from being taken fast later, very successfully.

I don't think it should be the end of ACM's 4* career, fwiw. He usually jumps very tidily until he's tiring. I'd just like to see him taken a little more slowly, get a nice one under his belt, for the sake of both their confidence...
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The interesting thing about Horton Point was that Mark rode him fairly strongly all the way in spite of him being used to a small girl and throughout the 2nd half of the course he didn't ride for any deep distances - he was forward and off every fence. The horse had the scope and the trust to be able to do it and Mark had the strength, skill and eye to make it easy for him. His reactions were not tested to a high degree.

Mandiba did have a perfect shot to the bank but landed a little short so was a little too far off the log for a horse that wasn't really going hence he stopped.
Two Tyme was never reaaly going and Ruth was having to be very strong all the way. She nearly pulled it off but, as you say, as soon as she got out of position he took advantage.
When a horse gets tired the adjustability of the stride goes and then it is too hard for some horses to stay tidy infront. I'm not saying that he can't jump safely round a 4* in his own time but that doesn't make him a competitive 4* horse.
 
WoopsiiD said:
A picture paints a thousand words.....
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We were concerned about ACM after the fall as he did look very sore and tired. OT undid the girth and then walked off. We watched ACM all the way back and OT didn't even look back at the horse.
There really is no bond there and no bond in my opinion means that you don't have the crucial partnership needed to do 4*
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I so agree with this. The horse was upset by his fall and he looked at Oli for reassurance. However competitive Mr Townend may be there was no excuse no to at least give that poor horse a pat.

My humble opinion on the whole situation is that if a horse falls out of tiredness the fault must lie with the jockey/producer not the horse. They are responsible for the horses fitness and if it is not fit enough then they should take responisibilty. If a horse consistantly struggles at this level then he should be looked at for potential problems.
 
Doormouse said:
I so agree with this. The horse was upset by his fall and he looked at Oli for reassurance. However competitive Mr Townend may be there was no excuse no to at least give that poor horse a pat.

Totally agree. Several years ago my friend got her horse to HOYS and we parked next to a well known sj (married to an eventer) and his horse had a paddy and put its hoof through the lorry window. A call was put out for him (before mobiles) and the guy riding riding my friends horse said 'you watch he'll ignore the horse and check the lorry'. Thats exactly what he did, not been a fan since.
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How many of you after a horse fall like kentucky could get back on and get straight back out there asap and compete said horse very competitively again? Would deja vue be going thru your head as you fell again and think i might not be lucky this time? I think ollie trusts his dad to take the horse back to be looked after and prob had to go and see the doctor himself, decide what he was going to say to owners and media. He would be concerned about the horse but as outwardly it looked ok just sore it ould just be a matter of getting back to the stables and seeing what was going on then.
 
Wow, what a long thread!

I cant really criticise OTs riding style too much, i dont compete never mind at that level! I have, however, seen OT come up through the ranks (we competed in ponies at the same time, often in the same classes) and he has always had a very aggressive riding style and it was encouraged by his trainers in the warm ups so it is how he has been taught to ride. He has had much success so I can understand why its hard to try to change that style.

I do find it sad that he (apparently) has no bond with the horse though. Yes, i never competed to the high levels of Badminton, but we did pretty well, and we also had a couple of horrific falls over some tough courses. Every time we had a fall, even if I just fell off and the horse didnt fall (that can often be almost as upsetting for the horse!) I would always, always give the horse a pat of reassurance and walk it back to the lorry with some kind words. Unless I was on my way to hospital ;) I dont think theres any excuse for just walking off without a look back, leaving someone else to care for and reassure the horse after such a heavy fall where he looked to be in some pain afterwards. But, possibly im just too soft, im clearly not cut out for top level eventing as I "retired" from it after my horse was seriously injured in a fall as I was scared to death of losing him. Thats a risk that the rider has to take every time you compete and im not cut out for that at all, im too scared of falling lol.

When I have seen interviews with OT he does come across as very arrogant. I dont know the guy personally, thats just the impression I get. Maybe he has had so much success and has so many people pandering after him that he's forgotten why we all start with competing in the first place - cos we love the horses! Yes, results are important for the top riders, im sure theres a huge amount of pressure to keep winning, but it shouldnt be at the expense of the welfare or confidence of the horses. I have seen Mark Todd and WFP nurse horses around the big courses after they've had a confidence knock, a good rider should be able to do that, not just keep throwing them into the fences and hoping for the best.
 
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Don't you think too many people are going off this one shot of them walking back? From what I saw on tv, it looked as though OT walked over to the horse when he got up to see if it was ok. At that point the horse was on 3 legs and looked injured. A picture doesn't always tell the story. How many horses are grabbed by the grooms as soon as the rider dismounts in the collecting ring, and the rider talks to the tv presenters? Its a different world from our levels.
 
Honey08 said:
Don't you think too many people are going off this one shot of them walking back? From what I saw on tv, it looked as though OT walked over to the horse when he got up to see if it was ok. At that point the horse was on 3 legs and looked injured. A picture doesn't always tell the story. How many horses are grabbed by the grooms as soon as the rider dismounts in the collecting ring, and the rider talks to the tv presenters? Its a different world from our levels.
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The horse was not 'on three legs', he had put his foot through his reins and effectively hobbled himself.
It's a different world IF the rider chooses it to be. Laura B warmed Alf down herself at WEG... I'm sure she could have just handed him over to a groom and gone to the waiting journalists, but she chose not to...
 
RE: the bond thing, I know a lot of pro's try not to get too close to the horses as they can start to become pets, they end up making excuses when things go wrong etc. So by not having too much of a bond they keep a working relationship with the horse. IYKWIM (not sure that makes sense!)
 
I can't comment on Oli's riding style being an amateur competing locally but didn't he get a bit of a slating not too long ago for entering maybe too many events last year? I can't remember the circumstances or the horse involved but I remember reading comments that it had had too long a season which led to mistakes. Can anyone enlighten me on that please - was it ACM?

What I can comment on though is how lovely Oli was to my husband & I a few years ago at Badminton. We were walking the xc course the evening before the xc & Oli overheard my husband talking to me in his very broad Yorkshire accent, so he came up to us & asked Andy where he was from. They had a good old chat about Yorkshire and Oli then asked me if I was competing :eek: )I'm the wrong side of 40 & the wrong side of 10 stone!!) so as a joke my husband said it was him competing and asked him for the line he would take at the jump we were at! Oli knew it was a p**s take (good old Yorkshire humour) but explained the line to us and said it was a jump he was nervous of. We then walked 3 or 4 fences with him before we let him go so he could concentrate on the job in hand.

To me that wasn't a PR exercise, there was noone else there to see what he was doing & if it was to gain PR brownie points he needn't have spent so much time with us. If we hadn't have let him go I'm sure we could have walked the whole course with him.He really changed my opinion of him and I thought how genuine & down to earth he was.

Maybe he has been groomed a bit since the situation where he took his horse without saying thank you as posted earlier, or maybe he has just had to grow up being in the public eye but whatever it is he certainly didn't seem arrogant.
 
God you all jump on the wagon dont you?? Oli did not just leave ACM his dad Alan checked over him and took him off him.
I do wish Oli would come on hear to clear some of this rubbish up but good on him really for keeping his mouth shut.
How many of you ride at 4* or have even produced a horse anywhere near that .
 
dingle12 said:
God you all jump on the wagon dont you?? Oli did not just leave ACM his dad Alan checked over him and took him off him.
I do wish Oli would come on hear to clear some of this rubbish up but good on him really for keeping his mouth shut.
How many of you ride at 4* or have even produced a horse anywhere near that .
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I know that he pretty much sees most things thats said about him on here and I feel bloody sorry for him, hes a good guy, down to earth and has time for people, yes he may not be everyones cup of tea as a rider but that is no reason to lay into him
 
kerilli said:
I firmly believe you cannot drive a horse at every fence and expect it to get round. At some point the doubt creeps in and nobody is strong enough to shove a reluctant horse over a fence, be it 2' high or 4*...
I don't think it should be the end of ACM's 4* career, fwiw. He usually jumps very tidily until he's tiring. I'd just like to see him taken a little more slowly, get a nice one under his belt, for the sake of both their confidence...
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I have just been watching a recording of Badminton and I'm not sure where the "driving at every fence" comes from. If anything Oli tends to hold him off the fences and sit quiet to them, not with a strong or fixed hand but containing his stride. In fact, he allows him to come to the lake where he leaves a leg and he doesn't hold him off the log where he fell. ACM is clearly very bold and forward thinking to the fences and shows no reluctance. Going the long route at the sunken road would be to do with the horse's technique (or lack of) rather than through not wanting to do it.
 
oldvic said:
I have just been watching a recording of Badminton and I'm not sure where the "driving at every fence" comes from. If anything Oli tends to hold him off the fences and sit quiet to them, not with a strong or fixed hand but containing his stride. In fact, he allows him to come to the lake where he leaves a leg and he doesn't hold him off the log where he fell. ACM is clearly very bold and forward thinking to the fences and shows no reluctance. Going the long route at the sunken road would be to do with the horse's technique (or lack of) rather than through not wanting to do it.
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i haven't rewatched it, so it may be my memory playing me up, in which case i stand corrected... i meant driving hard with legs and seat, nothing to do with 'holding him off the fences' or anything. yes, i agree about the route he took at the sunken road, i thought he was very clever to take that almost-impossible line to avoid the extra risk at the higher (?) rail if the horse did hang a leg.
 
The video link is earlier on this thread. Not one person who says oli was driving/riding 'far too fast' etc. with foot to the floor has commented on it. Perhaps because there is no evidence in the video of riding along those lines?!
 
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