In favour of 'strong' bits...

It really REALLY narks me when people say every horse can be schooled to go quietly in a mild bit. The 'mild bit' in question being the snaffle.
I'd like to say a few things;
Firstly, you probably CAN train every horse to go quietly in a snaffle in the school or in familiar situations. However SOME horses will ALWAYS be excited by jumping or going across country, or just by competition, or even hacking, and control is ESSENTIAL to the safety of horse and rider.
Secondly not all horses happen to LIKE snaffles. Years ago the great big fat eggbutt snaffle was considered one of the kindest bits around. NOW people understand that the conformation of a horse's mouth plays a HUGE part in how comfortable a bit is or isn't to an individual animal and REAMS have been written about how harsh the nutcracker action of the single jointed snaffle is. There are REASONS all these new bits have appeared in recent years, and it's not all about stopping!
I LIKE 'strong' bits. I LIKE strong bits because they enable me to have a light hand and more importantly my seat remains secure because I don't have to use my weight (I don't mean weight aids) to stop an animal who has at least 10 times as much strength as I do. I LIKE that I can stop A and PF with a squeeze rather than a pull (steady or otherwise) and I don't give a sh:t WHO thinks my horses are inadequately schooled because I know how much thought and how many alternatives I tried before settling for the bits I use.
Personally, I think anyone who blindly sticks a snaffle in their horses mouth because it's 'mild' is a simpleton. Consider how much thought and care goes into choosing a saddle? Why should bitting be any different? Each animal should be considered individually and many MANY things have to be taken into consideration. Obviously an unbalanced rider with heavy hands should not ride in a curb, but just because you can stop a horse in a certain bit, it doesn't necessarily mean your horse is comfortable or happy in that particular bit and I don't see any harm at all in trying as many alternatives as possible to find the right one and if the 'right' bit is a double (Zara Phillips and Ardfield Magic Star) or a hackamore or whatever, what right does anyone watching from home, who has never SAT on the horse, or seen it being schooled have to sneer at it??
This is not a dig at MissElz BTW. I have no problem with people asking what a bit is or how it works.
 
B

bhpride

Well-Known Member
Joined
10 June 2006
Messages
1,122
Location
S.Wales
Visit site
[ QUOTE ]
Each animal should be considered individually and many MANY things have to be taken into consideration. Obviously an unbalanced rider with heavy hands should not ride in a curb,

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely agree, every horse and rider is different. Nice to see someone saying that for a change.
 
i am incomplete agreement with you.

it gets right on my tits when people cast judgement on what is in your horses mouth without ever sitting on the horse themselves.

i feel better knowing someone feels the same as me!
grin.gif
 
I agree pickle goes so badly in a snaffle, he spends the whole time with his head either on the floor or chucking his head up and down! while in a waterford he goes beautifully. Equally out hacking, I could take him out in loose ring waterford, but would mean hauling on his mouth! would rather use the universal gag with light hands!
 
[ QUOTE ]

Secondly not all horses happen to LIKE snaffles. Years ago the great big fat eggbutt snaffle was considered one of the kindest bits around. NOW people understand that the conformation of a horse's mouth plays a HUGE part in how comfortable a bit is or isn't to an individual animal and REAMS have been written about how harsh the nutcracker action of the single jointed snaffle is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree with you on this from personal experience - my ponio will not tolerate a jointed bit, but is happy as larry with his straight bar pelham...the dentist came out recently, looked at the conformation of his mouth and told me to stay well away from jointed bits.
 
Seconded...just that there are far too many people who claim expert knowledge who are the opposite... I also shun the term "horsewoman" which a few people have tried to tar me with...I'm just an ocasionally over enthusiastic hobbyist with and enquiring mind. What is most telling is that those who claim to be experts and don't like being questioned...usually turn out to be shams.
 
I agree 100%. I sold a horse a couple of years ago and told the girl that she would need to SJ / XC in a stonger bit as he was a very very strong although also very well schooled.
I went to see her going XC recently and was quite amazed when she said that he flew round in a snaffle but normally too fast. I did at first feel a little upset as I sold this horse because he was too strong and big for me.
It wasn't until I saw her doing her round to se her hauling on his mouth and not being able to stop him, then having to come back to walk half way round for her to have a breather as all the tugging and hauling had taken it out of her.
I would far rather have seen a nice steady round in a stronger bit than this, but the girls opinion was that she was being kinder taking him round in a snaffle. Had she used a stronger bit she probably would have had a lovely clear within the optimum time.
It would really be nice to see bitting experts that can come out to you and your horse and discuss bits as a saddler would dicuss sadddle. Above horse couldn't be ridden in a single jointed snaffle as he had a low palet and a large tongue. Guess what she was XC in!!!????
 
PF, I hope you dont mind but I want to re-post my most recent reply to the Ben Maher thread, as I feel it is kind of relevant. I never intended that post to become a rant at all those who ride in bits other than a snaffle; far from it.

I would love anyone to have told my horse Mickey that he should go in a snaffle - and then try to stop him when he did decide to 'go'! He was the strongest horse I have ever ridden - once he decided to go, he went - and a snaffle for him would never have been the right way to go. (For the record, I rode him in a vulcanite pelham). As someone else has said previously, I agree with the principle that all horses should be started in a snaffle, but I am open to the fact that they may, as they mature and develop, be better in another type of bit.

I'm sure we would all love to have horses that compete in every discipline in a plain little loose ring snaffle - for sure, it would be a darn site cheaper for us all! But that really isnt what this was about.

I think my initial point was that these bits seem to be getting more and more harsh, more and more severe and complicated in their design. I'm not saying 'this horse would go better in a ......', I'm simply asking whether we all think that the types of bit such as that seen on Ben's horse - and others - at Hickstead are necessary, effective and, I suppose, acceptable. Because let's face it, if a group of Pony Clubbers turned up at a rally in that bit and said to their DC, 'its ok, its only a snaffle and a hackamore,' I'm not sure they would be allowed to continue....

I don't doubt for a second that the top riders try their damndest to get their bitting right. Its in their interests, isn't it - they don't do it for show, do they? Because even those who advocate this type of bit cannot possibly argue that it looks pretty....! What I worry about are those riders who are not 'professional' who catch on to these kinds of trends set by the top riders, and use them negatively on their own horses. I have witnessed, first hand, a very good friend of mine experimenting with a whole host of evil-looking bits. His session resulted in his mare discovering that yes, she could slow down between fences - but she also came away with a bleeding mouth and was unable to be ridden for a week afterwards. Again, as has been said before, any bit can be kind when used in the right hands, and the reverse is also scarily true.
 
Yes, I read your post
smile.gif
My point is precisely that just as much thought should go into bitting as saddling and that goes for opting for a snaffle JUST as much as pelham or kimblewick or a dutch gag. Sadly not enough people have a good enough understanding of HOW bits work; which are elevators, which have poll action, etc, etc. This ignorance works both ways; there are those who blindly follow fads or immitate their idols and those who insist snaffles are the only way...
 
It is better to have a slightly stronger bit and use it gently than a mild bit and use it is roughly.

I object to horses being yanked in the mouth in any kind of bit unnecessarily.
 
[ QUOTE ]
...and REAMS have been written about how harsh the nutcracker action of the single jointed snaffle is.

[/ QUOTE ]
Totally agree. I haven't used a nutcracker mouthed snaffle on any of my horses for at least 20 years and it's something that (sorry) I just won't have in my tack room ... ever! Bits have moved on soooo much since the "nutcracker days".

I have to admit though, when I see some of the curb contraptions around, I do wince when seeing some English riders using them at times. Many of these bits were never designed originally to be used in the manner they are with English riders.
 
[ QUOTE ]
What I worry about are those riders who are not 'professional' who catch on to these kinds of trends set by the top riders, and use them negatively on their own horses. I have witnessed, first hand, a very good friend of mine experimenting with a whole host of evil-looking bits. His session resulted in his mare discovering that yes, she could slow down between fences - but she also came away with a bleeding mouth and was unable to be ridden for a week afterwards. Again, as has been said before, any bit can be kind when used in the right hands, and the reverse is also scarily true.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see where you are coming from MizElz, but I don't think it the responsibility of professional riders to set an example to others. I think people need to take responsibility for their own actions - and to keep in mind the welfare of their own horse.

What I don't understand is why you are assuming that Ben Mayers bit is more severe than traditional ones?? I don't know if it is or not, but a Cheltenham gag or a double bridle can be pretty severe...?
 
Hear hear, I'd like to see someone try and train my horse and then just jump him in a pure snaffle!! a lot of these strong horses have phenomanal amounts of power combined with an agile quick mind. and no way can the rider even begin to try and control a horse like this in just a snaffle, even with the very best of riders.

I have my horse in an american gag waterford most of the time, even just for hacking, a lot of people dont like this and really SNEER terribly, but he goes beautfully in it, he is relaxed, soft and comfortable and I hardly have to touch the reins and as a result has built up far more muscle, and become more relaxed in his outlook then when he was ridden daily in a snaffle.

That is what is riding is all about, the horse being at its most comfortable and relaxed, and if that means that he is more comfortable and relaxed in a big bit; then so be it.
 
I think you make a very good point!!

I took on a young mare who was labled a loony and unrideable and she was being ridden in a straight loose ring rubber snaffle with no nose band ...ahhhh!! The bit was as useful as a wet piece of spaggetti!!

As she was so strong and the only way i could ride her was to hack out, due to no school, she went in my happy mouth 3 ring gag but was ridden on the snaffle ring...she was fantastic, a massive change. (this was a fair few years ago BTW!!)
 
Hubbies cob goes brilliant in a rubber straight-bar pelham with roundings - nice and light, in an outline - I tried her in snaffle once - she hated it, think it was nipping her big cob lips! My gelding has a loose-ring snaffle with a revolver in the centre, tried others but that whats hes happiest in...I know what you mean though when people are obviously over-horsed and go straight for a gag without sorting out schooling/riding issues - thing is, a horse unhappy in a harsh bit and ridden without compassion will end up bucking/rearing and generally playing up to get away from the discomfort
mad.gif
 
I think the problem arises when people (often kids but not always) put a stronger bit on their horse/pony because they have seen it being used by someone else and think it looks like they are a 'proper SJ' for example!
I saw a pony yesterday at a show, that used to belong to a friend of mine. She did everything on that pony in a loose ring french link, SJ, XC, hacking etc etc. She wassold to a 14 year old girl, and was yesterday being jumped in a bit I didn't recognise but it had great long shanks and a lever action on the mouth. Now said girl is actually a nice little jockey but her one fault is that she doesn't give with her hands as much as she could over the fence. Pony gets tugged in the mouth over every fence on this evidently quite strong bit, and ends up putting in two stops, I'm sure because she wasn't enjoying being tugged on in the air! Now if that was a snaffle, more than adequate for the pony, I'm sure she'd object less and would jump a more fluid round?
So I guess what I am saying is I agree with both MizElz and PF, as I have changed to a universal gag on my horse to stop me having to haul on him when he gets overexcited XC. I think if people have put effort into deciding on a bit and looked into all the options etc, and settle on the mildest bit that does the required job ON THAT HORSE, then thats great. But so often people don't, and just use things because they think they should....and thats what I have an issue with.
 

PF - your point about safety is massively important.

My mare will go 'nicely' in a snaffle. However she is highly strung and can be difficult. I am not a strong man so I ride her in a gag so that I can control this!
blush.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]

I see where you are coming from MizElz, but I don't think it the responsibility of professional riders to set an example to others. I think people need to take responsibility for their own actions - and to keep in mind the welfare of their own horse.

What I don't understand is why you are assuming that Ben Mayers bit is more severe than traditional ones?? I don't know if it is or not, but a Cheltenham gag or a double bridle can be pretty severe...?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I agree - it isnt the responsibility of the top riders at all. And for the most part, people do take responsibility for their own actions, and their own horses - its the ones who dont that grieve me. I hate seeing horses going round local shows with their mouths being sawn to pieces by some inexperienced rider, who's over zealous mother/trainer etc has insisted that they should try a bit that they are by no means experienced/soft enough to use.

And I'm not assuming anything about the severity of Ben's bit in particular - yes, a Cheltenham gag can be very severe, and a double can be lethal in the wrong hands. Wasnt there someone on here a few months ago who has seen someone fracture a horse's jaw using a Dutch Gag on the bottom ring......?

This all reinforces the point that many people have made - not only is it horses for courses, you have to look at the rider, too.
 
Yea me too!
tongue.gif


Thing is, my horse is big and I am small and a bit weak!! I'm sure if a bloke got on him then they would be fine in a mild bit, but the truth is I am just not strong enough, so need a little assistance for some things!

It's ok saying that if they are well schooled then they should go in a snaffle, but when I'm hunting my horse, for example, any schooling goes out of the window because all he cares about is keeping up with those hounds!!

I think it is the same with the top SJ/Eventers or any other horse doing whatever they happen to be enthusiastic about, they have to be so bold and brave, plus they have to really love what they do so much... I imaging the adrenaline just takes over, so even if they are perfectly responsive at home in the school, the same may on apply when they are doing their thing!
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]


No, I agree - it isnt the responsibility of the top riders at all. And for the most part, people do take responsibility for their own actions, and their own horses - its the ones who dont that grieve me. I hate seeing horses going round local shows with their mouths being sawn to pieces by some inexperienced rider, who's over zealous mother/trainer etc has insisted that they should try a bit that they are by no means experienced/soft enough to use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea I know - it's quite bad really isn't it!
confused.gif
I don't think some people who ride horses even like them!! Or it would appear that way!
frown.gif
 
I took Henry hunting in a snaffle once....never again
blush.gif
My knuckles were dragging on the floor for weeks afterwards!
grin.gif

I have thought long and hard with henrys bitting, he jumps fantastically in a snaffle, but the approach and getaway leave ALOT to be desired! So I need something stronger without hampering his, the universal seems to have cracked it, today we were doing courses and I had control straight away after landing, cue me looking like this
grin.gif
grin.gif
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think if people have put effort into deciding on a bit and looked into all the options etc, and settle on the mildest bit that does the required job ON THAT HORSE, then thats great. But so often people don't, and just use things because they think they should....and thats what I have an issue with.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly; it's wrong to put a horse in ANY bit, snaffle, hackamore, gag whatever, just because they think they should or because of 'fashion' or (perhaps more importantly) if they think other people will approve or not. Hence people will INSIST on riding their horse in a snaffle and have problems with control when they would do better with what is generally perceived to be a 'stronger' bit. How often do people state their horse is 'snaffle mouthed' in ads, because this is gooood, and having a pelham-mouth is baaaaad?
Essentially, I think the existing prejudice against certain types of bits is just as damaging as the insistence that snaffles are universally good, or that anything Ben Maher or the Whitakers use is cool and to be copied.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I took Henry hunting in a snaffle once....never again My knuckles were dragging on the floor for weeks afterwards!
I have thought long and hard with henrys bitting, he jumps fantastically in a snaffle, but the approach and getaway leave ALOT to be desired! So I need something stronger without hampering his, the universal seems to have cracked it, today we were doing courses and I had control straight away after landing, cue me looking like this

[/ QUOTE ]

I have found getting the balance quite difficult. When I have brakes I tend to feel like he is not jumping quite as well as he can. I've come the the conclusion that I will never have great brakes hunting, but I think that is the case for a lot of people and is probably my fault for not introducing him to it correctly when he was a baby.
smirk.gif
The waterford seems to be working quite well for SJ though, he's still very forward and quite strong at times but he just listens that bit more coming into a fence, which makes all the difference.
smile.gif
 
I'm going to go against the grain for two reasons.

1) There are SO many people who SAY they have good enough hands to ride in this that or the other bit, but the reality is not so.

2) I take your point PF, but I still think that the "norm" or ideal to work towards is a horse who will go well in a simple and mild bit, whatever that bit is.

Horses for courses of course, and if you and your horse are happy in the "stronger" bits then that's fine, just wanted to stand up for those of us who ride ok in "milder" bits too
wink.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
... control is ESSENTIAL to the safety of horse and rider.

... Secondly not all horses happen to LIKE snaffles...

... the conformation of a horse's mouth plays a HUGE part in how comfortable a bit is or isn't to an individual animal...

... it's not all about stopping!...

... anyone who blindly sticks a snaffle in their horses mouth because it's 'mild' is a simpleton...

... Each animal should be considered individually and many MANY things have to be taken into consideration...

... I don't see any harm at all in trying as many alternatives as possible to find the right one...

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points PF. I agree.
Common sense, criterion and, own experience, must be used before making a statement or asking a question.
 
I am not convinced there is such a thing as a 'mild' bit or a harsh bit, they work in different ways and depends entirely on what a horse is happy in. I ride my horse in a 2 ring gag and I have tried other bits, i used a d ring rubber snaffle for dressage but he is heavy/strong in it and I hate hauling on his mouth. My pony though cannot stand a 3 ring gag but is also strong and is a copper roller fulmer, he is also ok in a straight bar pelham (vulcanite) but with no curb chain.

Put the pelham on my horse doesn't really do a lot although ti would be termed 'harsh' bit. The 'harshness' of a bit depends entirely on the horse and what action the horse is happy within it's mouth/ Some horses loathe having a bit at all and go brilliantly in a bitless bridle - is that deemed harsh??
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top