In need of some inspiration schooling...

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Hi,

I have a 4yr old KWPN. Just started working him on the flat, I have been doing lots of transitions, teaching him leg yield in walk and just generally trying to get him off my leg into consistent contact.
He struggles with canter transitions, ie runs into canter!
So I was just wandering what good exercises people use with their young horses to keep them interested and listening to you!

Thanks

Em
 

kerilli

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is he struggling with the size of the arena, or is there plenty of room? sometimes baby horses can get a bit worried if the arena's not huge and they have balance/turning problems at that time in their education.
what are his canter transitions like out on a hack? is he calmer when he has room?
 
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I think this is what he struggles with, came from a stud with a 30 x 60m arena and we have a 20x 40m arena, so he struggles to balance, his transitions are alot better when he schools in the field!
 

kirstykate

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Walk to canter, Canter figure of 8 with simple changes, canter teardrops got to work on the horses balance and tempo in canter if they run to canter back to walk/halt and start again don’t be afraid to take them back quickly to start again and reward quickly when hes done it right :)
 

kerilli

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I think this is what he struggles with, came from a stud with a 30 x 60m arena and we have a 20x 40m arena, so he struggles to balance, his transitions are alot better when he schools in the field!

yep, had exactly the same problem. ok... i'd get his walk and trot work as good as you can at this stage to give him more confidence, lots of gentle half halts before corners etc so he knows you'll never just throw him into them unbalanced, and he trusts you more, and then i'd keep the canters very short initially (e.g. canter just before A or C and just do gentle curve, down long side, trot well before the corner), do this until he realises he's not going to have to struggle to get round a 20m circle (which is SMALL for a baby horse!) and he relaxes and lets you ride him a bit more. then when he stays relaxed through the back, you can make the canters a bit longer, e.g. as before, carry on round short side, then trot, and gradually build it up.

of course walk to canter and all that fancier stuff are great when he is happy to go forward in relaxation without worrying about how small it feels in there... but a figure of 8 with a simple change in the middle sounds like a lot to me for a 4 yr old who has just started working on the flat! ;)
 

kirstykate

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yep, had exactly the same problem. ok... i'd get his walk and trot work as good as you can at this stage to give him more confidence, lots of gentle half halts before corners etc so he knows you'll never just throw him into them unbalanced, and he trusts you more, and then i'd keep the canters very short initially (e.g. canter just before A or C and just do gentle curve, down long side, trot well before the corner), do this until he realises he's not going to have to struggle to get round a 20m circle (which is SMALL for a baby horse!) and he relaxes and lets you ride him a bit more. then when he stays relaxed through the back, you can make the canters a bit longer, e.g. as before, carry on round short side, then trot, and gradually build it up.

of course walk to canter and all that fancier stuff are great when he is happy to go forward in relaxation without worrying about how small it feels in there... but a figure of 8 with a simple change in the middle sounds like a lot to me for a 4 yr old who has just started working on the flat! ;)

I have to disagree, the trot must be balanced and forwards before you should even contemplate canter. Figure of 8 with a simple change complicated:confused::) you should be asking for changes as soon as you start to canter:D
 

kerilli

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I have to disagree, the trot must be balanced and forwards before you should even contemplate canter. Figure of 8 with a simple change complicated:confused::) you should be asking for changes as soon as you start to canter:D

Since you actually quoted me, "i'd get his walk and trot work as good as you can at this stage to give him more confidence" I can't quite believe you ignored it.
Of course the trot must be balanced and forwards before you should even contemplate canter, where did I say that it should not?

And for a young horse who has "just started working" on the flat (as OP stated in first post) I do think that a figure of 8 in canter with a simple change in the middle, in a 20x40 arena he's not coping well with, is pretty difficult.
f course it's not complicated at all, especially on a well balanced youngster who has done a bit more. But at this stage, it sounds pretty tricky if the horse is struggling with his canter.

I don't start asking for simple changes as soon as I start to canter, because I want the horse to get the idea of going forwards in canter first.
 
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Thank you!
What sort of exercises do you use to improve the trot? He usually starts off quite keen and tends to rush around a bit on the forehand, so I do lots of transitions to slow him down and get him under control!
Really interesting to hear what others do with their young horses and any ideas are appreciated!

Em
 

kerilli

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Yes, lots of transitions, lots of changes of direction to keep it interesting. Once he is accepting the half-halt you can work on a bit of lengthening down the long side or across the diagonal, just a few steps at first then rebalance, it'll all build his strength as well as his confidence in you having him balanced for the next corner etc.
Spiralling in and out, shoulder-fore progressing to shoulder-in, are really useful. I do everything in walk first so they understand, plus losses of balance are easier to correct in walk! Then when he understands what shoulder-fore is, progress to trot.
He should be able to cope with a 15m trot circle, maybe spiral even smaller for 1 or two and then go larger again.
trot, walk a few strides, trot again is great with the onward bound ones. 5m and 10m loops in from track, changing the bend. leg yield from 3rd track to 1st (using natural pull of fence initially to help you) then from 5th track to 1st, then leg yield zig-zags down long side, this is a great suppling exercise and I find horses really enjoy it when they get the hang of it. Again, I do it in walk first.
Travers and renvers in walk, just a few baby steps to begin with.
All these should help towards the canter transitions too... :)
 

SpottedCat

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I'd say canter-walk as per a simple change is actually pretty darn complex for a 4yo, especially one which is still finding its balance. To do a simple change the horse needs to be able to collect the canter, take a lot of weight behind in self carriage and be totally off the seat aids - there's a reason collection comes last on the scales of training and that you don't get simple changes in prelim tests ;)
 
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Thanks kerilli!
Will definitely start trying all those exercises tonight, lots for him to think about and keep him interested! He's very sweet but can be distracted easily which means we end up trotting around aimlessly attempting To keep his attention!
:D
 

kerilli

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Thanks kerilli!
Will definitely start trying all those exercises tonight, lots for him to think about and keep him interested! He's very sweet but can be distracted easily which means we end up trotting around aimlessly attempting To keep his attention!
:D

I can't remember where I heard it, it might have been a Carl Hester demo, but I think the gist was "no more than 20 strides of anything without changing something" (direction, pace, length of stride, bend, etc) which is a very very good one to bear in mind... :)
 

ajf

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As others really.

Also (unless he's going to be a pure dressage horse) I'd school in fields and hack alot for now if you can. Find some nice undulations as well and get him to start to think about his feet and slowing and balancing himself (obviously after you've helped him a few times first). If you say he finds the school a little small this could potentailly make him a little stale of the school and not want to go forward in a relaxed manor. Yes work him in walk and trot but keep the canters short and sweet and don't attempt any proper corners (think more 20m circle turns).

My now rising 5yo was very balanced as a 4yo. Yes he could pop up from walk to canter when a little above himself or if I kicked too much when he wasn't listening ;) but no way could I have done canter to walk with him! He didn't have enough strength to take all his weight behing and sit properley and I would never have dreamed to have asked him! I will start to introduce it this year as I know he will pick it up quickly, along with some counter canter (again I will start this in a field as more space!).

Good luck :)
 

Gracie21

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I can't remember where I heard it, it might have been a Carl Hester demo, but I think the gist was "no more than 20 strides of anything without changing something" (direction, pace, length of stride, bend, etc) which is a very very good one to bear in mind... :)


*Writes on post-it note and sticks on horse*

Great advice that!
 

kerilli

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As others really.

Also (unless he's going to be a pure dressage horse) I'd school in fields and hack alot for now if you can. Find some nice undulations as well and get him to start to think about his feet and slowing and balancing himself (obviously after you've helped him a few times first). If you say he finds the school a little small this could potentailly make him a little stale of the school and not want to go forward in a relaxed manor. Yes work him in walk and trot but keep the canters short and sweet and don't attempt any proper corners (think more 20m circle turns).

My now rising 5yo was very balanced as a 4yo. Yes he could pop up from walk to canter when a little above himself or if I kicked too much when he wasn't listening ;) but no way could I have done canter to walk with him! He didn't have enough strength to take all his weight behing and sit properley and I would never have dreamed to have asked him! I will start to introduce it this year as I know he will pick it up quickly, along with some counter canter (again I will start this in a field as more space!).

Good luck :)

this is all really good advice too. :)
 

kirstykate

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Sorry didn’t realize a figure of 8 was such an advanced movement of course forgot you would never change the rein in a novice dressage test just go round and round and round all on the one rein and novice jumping courses are all built to be ridden off one rein because a young horse just cant cope the technicality of changing the rein:p
 

kerilli

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Sorry didn’t realize a figure of 8 was such an advanced movement of course forgot you would never change the rein in a novice dressage test just go round and round and round all on the one rein and novice jumping courses are all built to be ridden off one rein because a young horse just cant cope the technicality of changing the rein:p

Is the sarcasm really necessary? Of course everyone knows you can change the rein on an unbalanced young horse!
You suggested, specifically, "a canter figure of 8 with simple changes". This as advice to someone who had stated that their 4 year old had just started being schooled and was struggling with the canter...

I see a world of difference between changing the rein and the exercise you suggested.
 

JustKickOn

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Sorry didn’t realize a figure of 8 was such an advanced movement of course forgot you would never change the rein in a novice dressage test just go round and round and round all on the one rein and novice jumping courses are all built to be ridden off one rein because a young horse just cant cope the technicality of changing the rein:p

I think you are failing to understand what people are saying.
They are NOT saying that changing the rein and a figure of 8 are advanced or complicated.
They are saying that (from what the OP has said) for a horse who has just started working on the flat and is struggling with canter might find simple changes on a figure of 8 difficult to begin with. The horse was used to working in a bigger school, and how has 10m less one way, and 20m less the other, which is actually quite a lot, and may just need a little bit more time to establish his balance in the trot before introducing FO8 etc.

OP- nothing to add as I think there are some posts on here with very sound advice, but the above one made me a little :confused:
Best of luck, I hope we get some updates of how you and your horse are getting on :)
 

SpottedCat

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Sorry didn’t realize a figure of 8 was such an advanced movement of course forgot you would never change the rein in a novice dressage test just go round and round and round all on the one rein and novice jumping courses are all built to be ridden off one rein because a young horse just cant cope the technicality of changing the rein:p

It isn't. But then that isn't what you were advocating, is it? You specifically said:
Canter figure of 8 with simple changes

A simple change involves the horse changing leg in canter through walk, no trot strides at all. It doesn't come in until elementary tests for good reason. It is a canter-walk-canter transition.

You must be being confused by BE, who for reasons best known to themselves tend to write simple change (through trot) on their tests when they want you to do a canter-trot-canter transition with a change of lead through trot. :)
 
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Thank you for all the replies and ideas!

Lots to work on and I will definitely get some pics of him schooling soon so everyone can see how beautiful he is ;)
 

kirstykate

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It isn't. But then that isn't what you were advocating, is it? You specifically said:


A simple change involves the horse changing leg in canter through walk, no trot strides at all. It doesn't come in until elementary tests for good reason. It is a canter-walk-canter transition.

You must be being confused by BE, who for reasons best known to themselves tend to write simple change (through trot) on their tests when they want you to do a canter-trot-canter transition with a change of lead through trot. :)

We dont BE, we are BS, where most 4 yr old do proper changes not simple, we teach flying changes as soon as they canter, we make sure we can steer and have brakes then its out to the field to get the said horse going forwards, the most important thing, all horse do walk to canter, canter to halt, flying changes loose in the field, so it cant be that demanding for the horse.:)
 

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It is when maintaining a rhythm with an additional 60kg ish on your back!

As for flying changes without wanting to generalise but most show jumper changes are late behind because they are taught before the canter is balanced enough but for showjumping it doesn't matter. Btw I talk as an ex show jumper and this was watching horses from young horse classes up to GP!

If the OP is aiming at any sort of dressage career flying changes must be introduced carefully. Pros do often introduce as 4yos BUT they are very careful to ensure they are correct as once a horse learns to change late behind it is very hard to correct later in its education.
 

SVMel

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Interesing discussion with very good advice, I have to agree with the majority. I do also have to agree that showjumpers do a very different change to a dressage horse and that it not 'correct' in dressage terms.
 

humblepie

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Late to this post but have had similar experience with not a 4 year old but a 9 year old ex racehorse, who raced 7 seasons. We have a small school and he really struggled. I forgot about cantering other than if out hacking (though not practical over the winter as either frozen or boggy) and really worked on the walk and trot getting as much suppleness and then leg yielding and shoulder fore/in.

To start off with canter in the school was really difficult so we did a few strides then back to a trot circle and then try a few more strides and if he couldn't manage it, we didn't panic.

Gradually he has got the hang of it and last week was doing canter figure of eights with a simple change. A complete light bulb moment for him.

It has taken quite a lot of time though. I am sure with a bigger arena (and better rider) it would have taken less than half the time but you have to work with what you have.
 

CaleruxShearer

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A simple change involves the horse changing leg in canter through walk, no trot strides at all. It doesn't come in until elementary tests for good reason. It is a canter-walk-canter transition.

You must be being confused by BE, who for reasons best known to themselves tend to write simple change (through trot) on their tests when they want you to do a canter-trot-canter transition with a change of lead through trot. :)

Rather embarrassingly, I had no idea a 'proper' simple change was through walk! Having only ever really done them at BE, as have only done Novice BD, I just assumed a simple change was always done through trot! *goes off to read about dressage...*
 

kirstykate

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It is when maintaining a rhythm with an additional 60kg ish on your back!

As for flying changes without wanting to generalise but most show jumper changes are late behind because they are taught before the canter is balanced enough but for showjumping it doesn't matter. Btw I talk as an ex show jumper and this was watching horses from young horse classes up to GP!

If the OP is aiming at any sort of dressage career flying changes must be introduced carefully. Pros do often introduce as 4yos BUT they are very careful to ensure they are correct as once a horse learns to change late behind it is very hard to correct later in its education.

Very true and many of the 60kg ishes are un-balanced:D
 

ElleJS

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We dont BE, we are BS, where most 4 yr old do proper changes not simple, we teach flying changes as soon as they canter, we make sure we can steer and have brakes then its out to the field to get the said horse going forwards, the most important thing, all horse do walk to canter, canter to halt, flying changes loose in the field, so it cant be that demanding for the horse.:)

Sadly I have ridden plenty of 'show jump' produced 4yos and the amount of short cuts they have taken to make the horse to have brakes, steer, walk canter walk, flying changes etc is totally harming the thoroughness of the horse and totally inhibits it from working behind properly with any strength. I think you'll find most show jumpers (not all as some are very hot on the flat so i am not generalising) do not know what a proper 'true' change is!!! It's not just about a fancy lead change! Sorry this really frustrated me as I get sent plenty of young horses from show jump back grounds that apparently do this that and the other and have to spend months re installing the basics. Oh and it is damaging to the horse- in its longevity and soundness.
My 4yos actually do do flying changes but there is no way I can ride a balanced true change on them so there is no way I would claim they do changes. They are just not stupid and change leads to help themselves balance, disguised as a change! ;)
 
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kirstykate

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Sadly I have ridden plenty of 'show jump' produced 4yos and the amount of short cuts they have taken to make the horse to have brakes, steer, walk canter walk, flying changes etc is totally harming the thoroughness of the horse and totally inhibits it from working behind properly with any strength. I think you'll find most show jumpers (not all as some are very hot on the flat so i am not generalising) do not know what a proper 'true' change is!!! It's not just about a fancy lead change! Sorry this really frustrated me as I get sent plenty of young horses from show jump back grounds that apparently do this that and the other and have to spend months re installing the basics. Oh and it is damaging to the horse- in its longevity and soundness.
My 4yos actually do do flying changes but there is no way I can ride a balanced true change on them so there is no way I would claim they do changes. They are just not stupid and change leads to help themselves balance, disguised as a change! ;)


Fair play, but there is plenty of so called dressage yards too that mess up young horses, and as some progress in the sport can develop abnormal or un- natural actions, of course what a dressage rider may think as a poor change, in the eyes of a jumper is a perfect change horses for courses;), I would say most dressage horse wouldn’t achieve much of a standard jumping even with all the retraining in the world but with less effort a horse with a good solid jumping background will achieve a better level in the dressage arena;) As for the damaging effect take all the un-natural movements dressage horses are asked to perform, they have no long lasting effect? Ive never seen a horse piaffe, passage, over exaggerated extend trot, half pass, while playing free in the fields with there mates! Although I have seen them jump, change, buck, canter and trot naturally while playing in the fields smiling and happy moving free with there mates:) And we haven’t even got to training methods to achieve such over exaggerated and false movements but as said already horses for courses.:D
 

ElleJS

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Fair play, but there is plenty of so called dressage yards too that mess up young horses, and as some progress in the sport can develop abnormal or un- natural actions, of course what a dressage rider may think as a poor change, in the eyes of a jumper is a perfect change horses for courses;), I would say most dressage horse wouldn’t achieve much of a standard jumping even with all the retraining in the world but with less effort a horse with a good solid jumping background will achieve a better level in the dressage arena;) As for the damaging effect take all the un-natural movements dressage horses are asked to perform, they have no long lasting effect? Ive never seen a horse piaffe, passage, over exaggerated extend trot, half pass, while playing free in the fields with there mates! Although I have seen them jump, change, buck, canter and trot naturally while playing in the fields smiling and happy moving free with there mates:) And we haven’t even got to training methods to achieve such over exaggerated and false movements but as said already horses for courses.:D

Oh I agree the dressage yards can be just as bad, they even do sitting trot on just backed 3yo's!!! Always horrified at that, plus they all start napping when asked to go into the menage at one dressage yard i know... wonder why huh!!
I'm talking about producing a balanced, responsive, through sports horse that can perform amd stay sound for a very long time with the rigours of three day eventing which is what I assumed the OP was aiming for with her 4yo. :) anyway off tangent there sorry generally a young 'event bred' horses won't have the natural sit of a show jump bred youngster at 4 hence why it would be harder to achieve the exercises you set out. All horses are different and need taking at different speeds, generally show jumpers produce them thick & fast to sell jumping fox hunters at 5 where as an event horse is produced far slower normally BE100/novice at 5 :)
 

CaleruxShearer

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Ive never seen a horse piaffe, passage, over exaggerated extend trot, half pass, while playing free in the fields with there mates! Although I have seen them jump, change, buck, canter and trot naturally while playing in the fields smiling and happy moving free with there mates:) And we haven’t even got to training methods to achieve such over exaggerated and false movements but as said already horses for courses.:D

Mine did a bloody good bit of passage this morning when I turned him out and he realised the cows had changed fields so they are now next to his! He show jumped to 1.40 level as a youngster abroad but now events. He does do changes, but they are usually always late behind, which makes him unbalanced and panic. However that may well be my incompetence at not riding proper changes! I have been told by various people who have taught m, all of whom teach to international team level, that I'm better off coming back and changing through a couple of strides of trot, than panicking and unbalancing the horse.
 
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