Incident with land owner - WWYD?

ester said:
see I'm not sure about that because I am not convinced it would take a whole lot of force for someone to remove me from my 14.2 if they wanted to...
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I have to agree with this, many years someone did grab hold of my 14.2 and sexually assaulted me. I will not go into details, but to defend myself I struck him with my whip. The police caught him and he was sentenced for a year, he was a known offender.
So perhaps the OP had right to feel threatened.
 
bonny said:
I'm amazed at the number of people who think it's the same as someone being in your house or garden. It's nothing of the sort, everyone has the right to privacy in their house or surroundings, land is completly different and should be available for everyone to use. It works in scotland so why not in england too ?
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But Bonny, whatever you or anyone else thinks the law *ought* to be is irrelevant. The point is that there is such a thing as private ownership of land and that applies to open fields and farm land just as much as it does to houses and gardens. The rights and wrongs of that situation are a separate issue.
 
Sorry bonny but you are way off, I have a small amount of land where I keep my horses and I certainly wouldn't want random people wandering about on it. Most of the people who own land around here would let you ride on their land if you asked but it is not on just going on somebody's land.

How well does this really work in scotland? I'm sure the general public think it works well, the landowners may not think it works so well
 
If someone touched my horses reins in an aggressive manor I'd have battered them with my whip as well.

You were wrong on his land, you were wrong to be sarcastic and he was wrong overreacting.

None of you are winners in this case.
 
Hmm.

Although OP was in the wrong and shouldn't have been tresspassing, I do think the land owner reacted harshly towards OP after she stated she would leave immediately and not return. I wouldn't have wanted to give my details to a stranger who was acting in an agressive manner either regardless of the situation.

I don't think I would have hit him with a whip though, but I think both of my horses would have pulled away from him in a panic (if he was as agressive as OP says he was) so I wouldn't have needed to. And I do find it curious that you were able to hit him so hard that it left welts, and I don't understand how he was able to keep up with you after you 'gallopped off' or did I misunderstand that bit?

I would have spoken to the police immediately after the incident occurred, as for all you knew, he may not have been the land owner at all and somebody up to no good.

Moving forwards, seek legal advice immediately and don't post too much information on an open internet forum? Could go against you if things do go further.
 
camilla4 said:
But Bonny, whatever you or anyone else thinks the law *ought* to be is irrelevant. The point is that there is such a thing as private ownership of land and that applies to open fields and farm land just as much as it does to houses and gardens. The rights and wrongs of that situation are a separate issue.
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Err, most people on this thread are arguing that the OP was in the wrong for trespassing and so brought it on herself. I'm not even sure there is such a law anyway or that it should be relevant but alot of people are defending the man on that grounds.
 
JANANI said:
I would have told the police that you were terrified for your life and thought that something really bad was going to happen. I would have stated that it was self defense.

Then in future do not ride on peoples land unless you have permission from the land owner!!
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I dont think the police are going to make it up and are only following the law.
I agree NEVER ride on anyones fields unless they gave you permission to do so or ROW for horses etc. Ok you realise the error on this. However my first reaction as being out in the middle of now where its easy to get lost and being a lone woman I was always only too aware in case someone jumped out on me and if this had happened and I was in fear for my life as how do I know he isnt a rapist etc I would have done the same and fought him off so I could get away from him if he terrified me for being so aggressive. If you never made this clear to police when they questioned you you do need to go and get a solicitor OR if you go to the session they are suggesting you apologise and explain why you struck him as he terrified you for your own personal safety.But as you never did this you dont have a leg to stand on, you really cant change your story now. BUT the guy had no right to ask for your name and address legally you did not have to give this to him, he has no power on this matter.
 
bonny said:
Err, most people on this thread are arguing that the OP was in the wrong for trespassing and so brought it on herself. I'm not even sure there is such a law anyway or that it should be relevant but alot of people are defending the man on that grounds.
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Firstly, there is such a law.

Secondly, I didn't mention anything about the man's action being or not being justified. I simply pointed out that private ownership is private ownership, whether it is of large areas of land, homes or gardens so your assertion that they are "different" is wrong.
 
Wheels said:
Sorry bonny but you are way off, I have a small amount of land where I keep my horses and I certainly wouldn't want random people wandering about on it. Most of the people who own land around here would let you ride on their land if you asked but it is not on just going on somebody's land.

How well does this really work in scotland? I'm sure the general public think it works well, the landowners may not think it works so well
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It works fine and in reality lots of random people wouldn't want to wander around on your small piece of land but it does mean that we can ride anywhere that we want to.....
 
I always thought trespass was a civil matter.

fwiw I don't think either party behaved appropriately but can understand that the OP might be un nerved by the situation.. the bloke could have been anyone as far as she was concerned not necessarily the landowner and perhaps some guidance on how best to deal with lone females might not go amiss there either.
 
camilla4 said:
Firstly, there is such a law.

Secondly, I didn't mention anything about the man's action being or not being justified. I simply pointed out that private ownership is private ownership, whether it is of large areas of land, homes or gardens so your assertion that they are "different" is wrong.
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Clearly there is a big difference between people's houses and vast acres of land.
 
this is the Scottish Countryside Access Code.

http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/B621366.pdf

http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/A309336.pdf

and yes it does work well, it doesnt mean you can ride roughshod wherever you want but the key is to be considerate and responsible for your own actions.
I have just had a lovely hack through a local estate, we checked with the gamekeeper and there are certain tracks off limit during the shooting season. This hack takes me through a couple of farms, I am polite and considerate, I would say the majority of riders are, but up here its taken for granted you can access these areas, there arent many riders in the area.
 
bonny said:
Clearly there is a big difference between people's houses and vast acres of land.
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Not when it comes to trespassing, there isn't. My property is my property and I would expect that fact to be respected as I respect the property of others - whatever the size!!
 
elsiecat said:
If someone touched my horses reins in an aggressive manor I'd have battered them with my whip as well.

You were wrong on his land, you were wrong to be sarcastic and he was wrong overreacting.

None of you are winners in this case.
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Rightly or wrongly so would I. You were in the wrong going on private property, sounds like he overreacted but perhaps he has had a lot of trouble with people going on his land etc and seeing you was the straw that broke the camels back.

If it was me I would go to the meeting be gracious and apologise and hope he doesn't take it further.
 
bonny said:
It works fine and in reality lots of random people wouldn't want to wander around on your small piece of land but it does mean that we can ride anywhere that we want to.....
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Yes but even then most of us don't. I certainly do the polite thing and ask for permission first. Even though I don't technically need it.
 
The land we have around the yard belongs to the YO so I'm fortunate in the fact that I don't have to ask about fields I hack round. I would never ride on a field that I hadn't asked about. So I think he was right to confront you but there was no need for him to be so aggressive and frighten you!! I would have done exactly the same as you in that situation.
I'd seek legal advice asap.
 
bonny said:
I'm amazed at the number of people who think it's the same as someone being in your house or garden. It's nothing of the sort, everyone has the right to privacy in their house or surroundings, land is completly different and should be available for everyone to use. It works in scotland so why not in england too ?
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NO WAY! We had someone kept dumping their grass cuttings(a whole row of houses) just chucking over their weeds(horses and other animals in the field). What a cheek, I had to go and ask them if they would like me to put their cuttings over their fence. I would never ride on someones fields and if their are crops etc growing that is money the farmer lost for every seedling that is destroyed(horses go a long way and trash fields even the edges). It will all add up£££. Dog walkers coming off the paths and just s...tting dogs everywhere(small children play in the field how would it be if I could just walk my dog over someones front garden).
Bonny can I come and park my caravan in your back garden? If land is so readily available in Scotland.I might tether a few horses too.
 
There really are two issues here.

Firstly, the tresspassing, for which the OP apologised and tried to rectify by leaving. Hey, everyone makes mistakes, it really wan't the end of the world.

Secondly, the assault, which was self defence for the man preventing her from leaving. Lets face it, if he hadn't grabbed and held the horse, she wouldn't have hit him with her whip.

I don't see from her original post that she would have hit him in response to being told she was tresspassing. I also don't see how by saying sorry, and she was leaving and would not be coming back, she was being sarcastic or rude, as some people have suggested?
 
The reason the police are inviting you to this meeting is so they dont have to deal with all the paper work involved it they were actually following the book. Its so that dont get caught up in the petty stuff (thats the theory anyway) and can concentrate on real police work.

You missed a trick when the police first turned up. You should have said 'You feared for your life'

Too late now but perhaps drop that into the conversation if its not going your way and you dont think you are going to get away with this.

Very importantly you say 'You feared for your life'

Good luck and next time stick to bridleways :rolleyes:
 
OP - the wrongs & the rights are irrelevant IMO as the incident has already occurred and no doubt you have learned a valuable lesson from this - what you need to do now before any apologies etc is to seek qualified legal advice.

To the people who have replied to this (agreeing or otherwise), what I'm interested to know is if you found yourself in a similar situation, ie you strayed onto private land & the landowner became very irrate and aggressive towards you and your horse, what would you do? And no replies of 'it wouldn't happen to me' please as everyone makes mistakes occasionally!

I'm not actually sure how I would deal with it sitting here now in the cold light of day but I think in the heat of the moment if I was genuinely scared for my safety, honestly, I'd do whatever I felt I had to to get away.

I would probably also have gone to the police immediately...

Also - to AMW, that must have been terrible for you - hugs :) People like him should be strung up by their balls :mad:
 
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indie999 said:
NO WAY! We had someone kept dumping their grass cuttings(a whole row of houses) just chucking over their weeds(horses and other animals in the field). What a cheek, I had to go and ask them if they would like me to put their cuttings over their fence. I would never ride on someones fields and if their are crops etc growing that is money the farmer lost for every seedling that is destroyed(horses go a long way and trash fields even the edges). It will all add up£££. Dog walkers coming off the paths and just s...tting dogs everywhere(small children play in the field how would it be if I could just walk my dog over someones front garden).
Bonny can I come and park my caravan in your back garden? If land is so readily available in Scotland.I might tether a few horses too.
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Talk about missing the pont ! In scotland gardens are DIFFERENT ! All other land everyone has free access to apart from school or hospital grounds.
 
bonny said:
Talk about missing the pont ! In scotland gardens are DIFFERENT ! All other land everyone has free access to apart from school or hospital grounds.
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Not true. We have had Joe Public asking to walk through our garden and when the council lady came she found in their favour. This code is run by people in Ediburgh who just don't understand the concept of rural privacy. Anyway, this is all irrelevant as this happened in England.
 
Also OP - as someone who states that they hunt, how can you be so oblivious to what is public and what is private land????
 
I think its important to remember that although we view our horses as part of the family, in law they are possessions. By holding the rein the OP wasn't prevented from leaving and she wasn't assaulted. I'm assuming that the OP doesn't have a disability that prevents her getting off the horse and walking away. In being harsh with the rein the farmer would maybe argue he was trying to restrain a frightened animal (despite it being his shouting that caused the fright) so I don't think you'd have any luck with an animal cruelty charge. You'd have been able to walk away and charge him with theft if he didn't give the horse back.

As for self defence, I'm reasonably sure that someone has to do something to you first,eg shut you in a room, grab you, point a gun at you, or something. I don't think you can attack someone because you felt threatened and then say it was self defence.

OP I think the police *are* being sympathetic to you which is why they're trying to get you out of this mess the easiest way. I'm guessing both you and the farmer have learned your lessons from this incident and its probably not in the public interest to prosecute either if you. I think the farmer probably acknowledges his part in this which is why he's been pursuaded to hold off pressing charges. The facts are you did assault him, he didn't assault you, the rest is opinion.

If you work think of your job. Is it one where you'd be automatically fired for having a criminal record, especially assault? With how horse riders are thought of in general as being rich and posh and above everyone else etc, I don't fancy your chances of any sympathy from an average jury, especially since you were riding where you shouldn't have been. Had you been on a bridleway I think people may view it differently.

I understand exactly why you're upset and why you reacted as you did, unfortunately that doesn't make it ok in law. I hope this can all be sorted out without you getting prosecuted and that you can put it behind you soon.
 
I really don't see how he can bring charges against the OP - there are no other witnesses, its his word against hers. There is no proof. The supposed welts could have been caused elsewhere by anyone. Where is the proof here?????

He is angry and is trying to punish you, but he has not a leg to stand on unless you admit that you hit him. Even then, it was because you feared for your safety, so justifiable IMO.

He sounds like a right tit.
 
the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 allows the public RESPONSIBLE access to walk/ cycle/ ride on private land. It does not mean that people can tramp about anywhere or in any mannner they like. There are certain exemptions from these access rights, which are designed to protect landowners'/ managers' land and property. 'Responsible' means not letting your dog poo everywhere/ damage crops/ livestock/ ride a horse in crops/ on very wet ground/ within the curtilage of a house/ caravan/ be considerate of other users/ care for your environment. A whole host of stuff! But in general I would say that the LRA does work.
That aside, no piece of legislation justifies anyone behaving in an aggressive manner towards you.
 
Bonny you are WAY off!!

The countryside is not a playground, it is a place of work and you should respect that.
Farmers do not slave endlessly maintaining and purchasing land for you to play ponies on because you feel that you are entitled.

Get real.
 
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