Incident with land owner - WWYD?

[BWa]

Op hit someone with a whip, more than once and harder enough to leave marks! No sympathy from me either. I would have got off my horse and let it jump on his head!

 

[Lanky Loll]

Did anybody else think that the reason the landowner asked where OP was from COULD be because this is a persistent problem with OP and other riders? He may not of been able to catch previous trespassers but have wanted to locate where they were coming from to put at stop to it? Can't help thinking myself that it was a fairly reasonable question.

And yes OP I do think you were out of order and incredibly arrogant if as seems to be the case you were riding on land that wasn't an ROW and thought it was just OK.
At the end of the day you both exploded a situation that could have been handled very differently and that YOU put yourself in.

 

[Littlelegs]

Re the sarcasm, I mean from the man's pov, it was obvious she was riding, so intended or not I can see why that reply would come across as rude, rather than apologetic.
Re the situation I was in, I prob didn't explain it well. But basically being approached by a random wierdo at dusk. He'd clearly been waiting in a bush because behind them is a solid fence. He approached me, so I just used horses weight to push him away. Point I was trying to make is that in the same situation on foot I would have been intimidated. But even on a 14.2 I didn't feel threatened as I was physically at an advantage. On foot, even a skinny average height male could be threatening if they chose, but with even a few hundred kg of horse, lone female or not, a raging lunatic wouldn't bother me.

 

[siennamum]

It has happened to me. Genuine mistake as the bridlepath sign disappeared at the edge of a field, so I followed the tracks of a previous horse's hoof.
Came to a padlocked gate where the track met a farm yard in the middle of nowhere. Next thing, 3 dogs and a very irate farmers wife came running up,and the farmer was charging across the fields towards me.
Dogs were jumping at the gate, woman was shouting that I was trespassing etc. In reply, I told her how sorry I was, I was unfamiliar with the route and told her where I'd got lost etc. She calmed down and was lovely, opened the gate and allowed me to take a short cut through the yard. She called her husband off which was fortunate as the poor man then had to jump in his landrover to chase some quad bikers who were riding through his fields.

Just being reasonable, acknowledging that you're in the wrong and offering to return the way you came is better than being antagonistic. Of course farmers are going to be angry but accept the telling off and learn from it.

Also happened to me. Was following a track which I was allowed to ride on, got turned around, track led me onto a yard owned by farmer (whose wife & kids are in PC) I apologised profusely, offered to retrace our steps to get back onto correct track (through 2 fields) she was ranting at me about her bean crop and kicked me and child on pony out onto a major A road which was extremely unsafe to ride along. Really nasty experience.

 

[Hoofprints in the Snow]

Op hit someone with a whip, more than once and harder enough to leave marks! No sympathy from me either. I would have got off my horse and let it jump on his head!

Did you read this before hitting the submit button LOL

 

[fburton]

No wonder the land owner went to the Police. Just accept that you need to apologise for your actions... being somewhere you shouldn't have been and for assaulting him with a whip!

Or if someone does anticipate needing to use a whip to get someone off them, take a padded racing whip which doesn't hurt at all.

 

[Mariposa]

All I have to add is good luck with the session, it sounds like a horrible experience, regardless of who was in the right or wrong.

 

[OWLIE185]

Some years ago I was riding accross some land with the landowners permission. A Land Rover came up from behind me and the driver started screaming at me telling me to get off the land and that I had no right to be on it.
I thought at the time that maybe I had crept on to another farmers land. However when I spoke to the landowner and showed her where I had been she confirmed it was her land.
The farmer that had told me off did not even own the ground.
He apparently used to shoot on her land without permission. Needless to say when she next saw him he was told never to shoot on her land again and to keep off it.

 

[fburton]

the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 allows the public RESPONSIBLE access to walk/ cycle/ ride on private land. It does not mean that people can tramp about anywhere or in any mannner they like. There are certain exemptions from these access rights, which are designed to protect landowners'/ managers' land and property. 'Responsible' means not letting your dog poo everywhere/ damage crops/ livestock/ ride a horse in crops/ on very wet ground/ within the curtilage of a house/ caravan/ be considerate of other users/ care for your environment. A whole host of stuff! But in general I would say that the LRA does work.

No, Not all land is free access. You can be done for trespassing if you cause damage to crops etc, although this has to be proved first. For example.. a neigbouring farm to my OH had just cut a wheat field, that night a group of dirt bikes trashed the field knackering all the unbaled straw. Farmer caught the lads in the act and had them charged. However said lads then decided to get their own back by trying to set my OH's combine on fire the next day. So your really only aloud on land if your not going to harm it.

Scots Law seems very sensible on this matter.

 

[fburton]

So in Scotland are you allowed to walk/ride/cycle/whatever all over arable fields and everything?

In theory, yes - if one didn't cause any damage. However, it is highly likely you would. So, no, one is effectively disallowed to cross arable land in use.

 

[tafyx]

How horrid, you must have been really freaked. he should have just accepted your appology and left it at that, there was no need to do what he did. obvioulsy you will have to deal with it now but stick up for yourself. I got caught out once but the man just accepted my appology and i left, promising not to ride in field again. I dont know why people get so annoyed by it here, its very tempting when you live in the country and most people are sensible about it. you probably should have gone to the police yourself straight after the incident. as to hitting him with stick i would have done the same thing!

 

[Tonks]

You were committing trespass and shouldn't have been there. You don't really have a leg to stand on and cannot prove assault like the landowner. Lack of signage is irrelevant.
It does however, sound like an incident that could have been handled better by both you and the landowner in question. Farmers are not known for their social skills!!
It sounds like the police are attempting some form of arbitration so that the landowner will hopefully not take it further, so as not to incur more police time.
As a landowner myself I would be very cross if I found someone on my land - which I have done - I firmly told them this is private land and they are not allowed on it and please go away.
Let this be a lesson learned - stick to the roads in further or get permission.

 

[fburton]

In all reality even though he had his hands on the horse's reins he wasn't actually "assaulting" the horse as you put it. He had his hands on the reins because he wanted your details because you were trespassing on his land.

If I stopped a rider and held on to the reins to prevent her from going away while I spoke to her, e.g. to give her a lecturette about road safety after I saw her riding in a way I thought was dangerous, would I be guilty of any offence?

 

[fburton]

Thank your lucky stars it wasn't Nich*las van H**gstraten who got hold of you!

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

In theory, yes - if one didn't cause any damage. However, it is highly likely you would. So, no, one is effectively disallowed to cross arable land in use.

You are also not supposed (in Scotland) to ride over hay crop grass once it is ankle height or above as at that stage you will damage the crop. Before that you can. It's a good rule of thumb, which in practice means you can cross it once it is harvested so long as the ground is firm enough for you not to trash the soil and leave great holes in it.

But it is totally different up here for historical reasons and TBH because the population is in most places tiny in comparison with the UK per acre. There is the room up here for the land pressure to be less and these leisure activities to be absorbed. Not the same in densely populated areas of England.

 

[Double_choc_lab]

Haven't read all the replies but either the man was semi naked or you must have hit him with huge force (somewhat more than "reasonable") to leave welts on his back. Surely if you pulled on the opposite rein and legged your horses bum round into him he would have to let go.

I'm sorry but if that puts you in "fear of your life" better not go out hacking coz its mean on them streets out there!

 

[galaxy]

Did anybody else think that the reason the landowner asked where OP was from COULD be because this is a persistent problem with OP and other riders? He may not of been able to catch previous trespassers but have wanted to locate where they were coming from to put at stop to it? Can't help thinking myself that it was a fairly reasonable question.

.

This is exactly what I supect!

From the OPs post I also think her replies sounded very sarcastic and the land owner probably wanted her details to ensure she wouldn't come again. No he should not have grabbed her reins but I feel the OP was FAR more in the wrong with her actions. She cant seriously use the "feared for my life" line now. If she had genuinely felt that way she would have phoned the police and reported him as soon as she had go away. If someone geniunely thought they were going to be attacked you would do that.

The OP won't be back on this thread as she just wanted to be told she was in the right. I wonder how she'd feel if riders/cyclists/ walkers decided to go walking around/through her horses fields/hay fields?? We have the odd walker stray off the bridlepath onto our yard sometimes. 90% of them are very rude when told they are not where they should be!

 

[Pale Rider]

I think you did right, you may have been trespassing, but, he has assaulted you, two wrongs don't make a right.
I think you acted in self defence and used such force as was reasonable to effect an escape.
Personally I'd make counter allegations, and prosecute him for assault.

 

[alainax]

I think judging by all the replies its a case of both were in the wrong, she shouldnt have been there, and he should have let her leave. He shouldnt have grabbed her reins, she shouldnt have hit him.

Unfortunately it was her actions that put her there, and although I agree that I would have freaked out if someone grabbed my reins, if she wasnt in his field it couldnt have happend.

Im so glad we dont have that worry in Scotland, however its still very much common sense here. Alot of the farmers lock thier gates so thats an easy sign that your not welcome, and many others have special gates for walkers to get through without opening the main one. Also never hack into a field with crops or livestock is nice etiquette

 

[jodie3]

Thank your lucky stars it wasn't Nich*las van H**gstraten who got hold of you!

But you wouldn't have been able to get on his land unless you jumped the freezers he used to block the access!!!

The only bit I am confused on is how the OP managed to hit the guy so hard he had weals on his back. Does that imply he had his back to her and was trying to lead the horse as opposed to holding the rein to stop her going? Just I would have thought if he was facing her and she hit him wouldn't he put his arm up to protect himself and deflect the blows?

 

[jendie]

You were in a horrible situation and I can understand why you were afraid. If he had harmed your horse or your bridle it could have been considered as 'criminal damage', but I guess you have no evidence that harm was caused. He, on the other hand, has shown his injuries to the police and they have probably been photographed and well documented. I'd give him his grovelling apology, promise never to darken his territory again, and avoid the risk of getting a criminal record. The police usually act very sensibly in these cases and they obviously realise you are not a villain. A meeting and a simple apology will put an end to the problem and then you can try to forget all about it.

 

[JanetGeorge]

I wouldn't being apologising to him for hitting him either. I would apologise for being on the land but that is it. I would also tell him that if someone was to grab my horse like that I would welt them with my whip. Lone female on my own in the middle of nowhere and some strange man (murderer rapist ????) grabbed my horse to restrain me. Any female in that situation would do the same thing.

Exactly! Someone DID once grab my horse's reins and tried to drag me off it - it was extremely frightening and I kicked my foot out of the stirrup and kicked him VERY hard in the jaw. I'm pretty sure it broke - I left him doubled over nursing it and galloped off - and reported the incident to the police when I got home. (I was about 16 at the time!) I would NOT have apologised and - strangely enough - he did not report the incident to the police!

IF you go to the meeting, take a sensible and cool-headed friend at LEAST! Preferably, take a solicitor. Apologise for trespass - but nothing else. You acted in self-defence. Make tyhe point that the person (who claimed to be the landowner) was agressive and threatening and you were extremely fearful that he would hurt you and/or your horse by his actions!

I remember when a sab grabbed Mark Sprake's (huntsman of the Surrey Union) horse's bridle. Horse reared over backwards, landed on Mark and Mark ended up with a ruptured kidney. He could easily have bled to death if a friend hadn't been handy to call an ambulance!

 

[Miss L Toe]

errrm, OP, are you mad or something?
You were caught trespassing, asked for details so the land owner can bring a claim against you, refused, clouted him with your whip repeatedly for a good measure and you want HIM to apologise to you?
Jeez

What sort of a claim does he want to bring ... all he needs do it tell her not to ride on his land, end of.

 

[Miss L Toe]

I1m so glad we dont have that "tresspass" worry in Scotland, however its still very much common sense here. A lot of the farmers lock their gates so thats an easy sign that your not welcome, and many others have special gates for walkers to get through without opening the main one. Also never hack into a field with crops or livestock is nice etiquette

Yes even after twenty years farmers are still not happy with people or riders, locked gates are widespread which is understandable in lambing season.
The BHS do nothing to open access up, for example windfarm gates are for people only, no room for carriages or horses [which are mentioned in the Code of Practice], and access is no better than it was years ago. We don't have bridleways.
Its attitude. I wanted to keep my pony on a farm which had a huge new road running through it [access to windfarm], and was told by YO that I could not use it. well why not, it causes no problem whatsoever. I decided I did not want to keep my pony there, all she wanted was the money and nothing else, everything was a problem for her, not surprised she had two empty stables.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

First we have trespassing. You tried to leave and said it would never happen again. This guy was hell bent on being aggressive by grabbing your horse roughly and not letting you leave. At this stage it becomes self defense and fear for the safety of you and your horse. So I for one would not apologise for that but would apologise about the land thing. Personaly, and I know it's different in England, I just would never ride on anyone's land unless I absolutely knew I had permission. But that's just me. But I'm also the type of person that will defend myself to the last. I would have done the same.

What if this was a girl in a car. She's lost. She turns around in a lane and a guy comes out and starts trying to get you out of the car to get your details and read you the riot act. You gonna sit there or step on the fecking gas? You guys are hilarious on this board sometimes. If you smack a horse occasionally for pushing boundaries you're an abuser. You defend yourself in a situation that was escalating in which your very safety and that of your horse was in jeaporady and all you all care about is tresspasing. WTF? OP clearly states she tried to leave and said it was never going to happen again. She wasn't stealing or destroying property. This guy was way out of line. Give a tongue lashing but DO NOT touch or threaten. It's that simple.

Terri

 

[Caol Ila]

Good posts from Janet and Terri.

Rider knew she cocked up by riding on land she shouldn't have been on, told the alleged landowner that she was leaving and would never do it again, and the guy went ballistic. His reaction was totally out of proportion with the offense.

If some guy grabbed your horse's reins and wouldn't let go, what would you do? I personally don't think I'd have to go for a whip, because if someone was restraining the horse, screaming at me, and I was terrified, my horse would practice her airs above the ground and the guy could easily end up with a hoof to the face. On a different horse who wouldn't defend herself (and by association, me), you bet I'd try to run him over with my horse or failing that, go for the dressage whip I always carry. Sure, the guy's pissed off about you being on his land, but if he's holding onto your bridle, keeping you from leaving, are you going to wait to see if he tries to get you off the horse, sexually assault you or something? I wouldn't. I'd get myself out of the situation by any means at my disposal.

 

[BWa]

In all reality even though he had his hands on the horse's reins he wasn't actually "assaulting" the horse as you put it. He had his hands on the reins because he wanted your details because you were trespassing on his land.

I feel that we aren't getting the entire story here either.

This, did the man actually put his hands on the op? Yes it sounds very scary but if he was being that rough for a few minutes I'm sure the horse might have reacted a bit more. An angry/scared horse would have been an effective self defence IMO.

 

[Potato!]

Some thing I don't understand Is if this man was acting so aggressively then why would he have his back to the rider. To me the body language is wrong, he had multiple whelts on his back which means she must have hit him really hard to be marked through clothing. IMO he shouted to her she gave a sarcastic comment he got angry. wanted her details of where she was from as he has had issues and wanted to confront the YO. She wouldn't give details he grabbed the rein to stop her and whilst he had his back to her she battered him with a whip ( that's what doesn't make sense). A person acting aggressively doesn't turn their back on the other person

 

[Caol Ila]

There's no evidence the alleged welts were indeed caused by the riding crop. Don't know about UK law, but in US law (which I know a fair bit about and our system is based on yours), the farmer would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that those welts came from the whip.

Anyway, if the horse is tall-ish (we have no idea how tall it is) and the guy were close enough to be holding onto a rein, it would be easy enough for the whip to come down on his back. Think of someone standing against your horse's shoulder, you bring your arm out, and down. Makes sense to me and does not disprove the rider's claim that he was holding her reins when she hit him.

 

[ladyt25]

I don't get why people are being that nasty to the OP to be honest. Do people KNOW the exact area she was riding in? Only the OP knows if she was knowingly riding on land she wasn't supposed to. It isn't always clear if you are following some farm rides. Also, how many people have been accosted by an aggressive man whilst out on their horse on their own? I would say not many. WHEN did he say who he was and confirm he owned the land? Sorry but unless you are in the situation how can you say how you would react? Round here only a few years ago a couple of riders were attacked on a bridleway near me - in a very nice village where you wouldn't expect things like this to happen - the man did precisely what this man did - grabbed the horse's rein. He the proceeded to pull the woman off her horse.

Sorry but in that split second if you are scared and feared for your safety you may react totally out of character.

trespassing accidentally is hardly a criminal act. There is though no excuse for anyone to act aggressively towards or intimidate others in my opinion.