Incident with land owner - WWYD?

I still think that with an admission that the op hit him until he let go and photographic evidence of wounds I think she is the one at fault here. I'm actually feel for the land owner here wether he was shouting at her and held the reins when the sarcastic little madam (and I get feeling that the apology and the I will never come here again comment was also said a little sarcastically too) wanting to know where she was from, mist probably to complain to the yard owner. Does not deserve to be battered with a whip.
 
I seriously cannot believe the total arrogance of some of these replies!! Thank the lord I live in Scotland is all I can say. There is no way in the world I would have given the man any details whether it was his land or not. Why on earth could he not have politely informed you that you were on his land and ask you to leave at first given opportunity. He grabbed your horses and put you in a state of fear. Id have done exactly the same as you, if not worse. Its a really sad world we live in with all these jumped up land owners around. We may not have it perfect up here but at least we have freedom :) ;)
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
First we have trespassing. You tried to leave and said it would never happen again. This guy was hell bent on being aggressive by grabbing your horse roughly and not letting you leave. At this stage it becomes self defense and fear for the safety of you and your horse. So I for one would not apologise for that but would apologise about the land thing. Personaly, and I know it's different in England, I just would never ride on anyone's land unless I absolutely knew I had permission. But that's just me. But I'm also the type of person that will defend myself to the last. I would have done the same.

What if this was a girl in a car. She's lost. She turns around in a lane and a guy comes out and starts trying to get you out of the car to get your details and read you the riot act. You gonna sit there or step on the fecking gas? You guys are hilarious on this board sometimes. If you smack a horse occasionally for pushing boundaries you're an abuser. You defend yourself in a situation that was escalating in which your very safety and that of your horse was in jeaporady and all you all care about is tresspasing. WTF? OP clearly states she tried to leave and said it was never going to happen again. She wasn't stealing or destroying property. This guy was way out of line. Give a tongue lashing but DO NOT touch or threaten. It's that simple.

Terri
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My thoughts exactly, not sure what else she could do given the circumstances. How long was this guy planning to keep her there?
As annoying and damaging as trespassers are, he handled it very badly.
 
JanetGeorge said:
IF you go to the meeting, take a sensible and cool-headed friend at LEAST! Preferably, take a solicitor. Apologise for trespass - but nothing else. You acted in self-defence. Make tyhe point that the person (who claimed to be the landowner) was agressive and threatening and you were extremely fearful that he would hurt you and/or your horse by his actions!
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This is very bad advice Janet, though I am sorry to contradict you.

If she apologises, that will be the end of it. No criminal record, no court case, no costs.

If she won't apologise it will probably go to court as "assault by beating", and at court she will have 3 magistrates or one District Judge shown photographs of weals on the guy's back, while she cannot produce any evidence of her own at all that she was in any danger, far less that it was self defence.

The Bench will have trouble understanding how a person sitting five or six feet up on a horse's back can feel threatened by a man on the floor, or why she could not simply have hit the horse to make it tear its reins away from the man if she was genuinely frightened. Don't shoot the messenger here, I understand perfectly well, as would any rider. The people on the Bench are unlikely to be riders or to understand at all.

Photos of the weals, on the other hand, will speak volumes.

She was entirely in the wrong being where she was. I live in open country. We all know we cannot just go and ride on someone else's land without permission. She was wrong to refuse to give her details, because if the man subsequently discovered damage to his land or stock, he was entitled to demand payment for that.

And to anyone who says how can he have weals - have you tried having yourself hit with a whip with a raised arm from six or eight feet up? To the people who think she can't have hit his back, he was standing close facing her and she hit him overarm over his shoulder. The Bench is likely to think that if she was geniunely frightened she would have hit his hands and/or his face.

OP apologise and have done with it. I am sure you will regret it if you do not, because even if you were (very unlikely) to win the case, it will have cost you hundreds in fees to your lawyers. And if you lose (very likely) you'll be paying an additional several hundred in court costs and doing some unpaid work for the community at weekends instead of riding your horse on other people's land.



ps I have been in this exact same situation, by the way. I gave the guy my name and address and he let go of my horses reins. Same thing would have happened in this case. She could have given him anyone's name and address that sounded female and he would have been happy and let her go. It was her own attitude that caused this problem.
 
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Exactly. Of course he could have welts on his back. You are above the person on the ground. I don't carry a stick on any of mine but safe to say he would have gotten much worse from Abba. She would have just mown him down.

At the end of the day his reaction was way over the top and did not fit the action. I'm from the US too which is why in my mind is if I don't own it I don't use it. But at the same time you absolutely have the right to defend yourself.

I think really the only "wrong" thing the OP did is in not reporting the incident as soon as she got back. I would have acknowledged I was wrong on the trespassing but told them I was frightened and scared. That incident could have been much worse. OP falls off is at the hands of a clearly over reactive person. Horse could have run off loose killed a driver or gravely injured himself ect. I'd say if you look into this guy's history you might find other incidents of losing it for minor things. And the fact he ran straight to the police to cry foul. It all adds up to a person that just isn't quite right. My gut feeling.

OP, take a lawyer and your husband with you to the meeting. Don't claim abuse for your horse but do definitely make the point known how scared you were.

Good luck
Terri
 
zaminda said:
Don't you dare hang your head in shame! I would be complaining to the police about there attitude! He assaulted you
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Don't see where the OP was assaulted. How are the police at fault having responded to an assault where the complainant was WHIPPED?!

horserider said:
Good heavens. On behalf of considerate horse riders, I'd like to go to this meeting and apologise to him.

Riding around the countryside like the Lady of the manor and giving someone a good whipping because they object to you trampling across their land isn't quite the done thing these days.

However, if you don't want to apologise, make a lawyer rich instead.
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This. I too would have been very scared, but I would not have dreamt of thumping someone with my whip! You were scared, he was injured by you. That's assault. Apologise, mean it and pray he doesn't press charges.
 
How rude can Irish dan be saying jumped up landowners, I own land work hard and don't earn a fortune, before you make accusations try being a landowner and earning a living from it or is it jealous. Horse owners like the rest of us must respect things and going where you don't know you are allowed to be is wrong, or I will bring my horse on her lawn or has she keep off signs?
 
cptrayes said:
This is very bad advice Janet, though I am sorry to contradict you.

If she apologises, that will be the end of it. No criminal record, no court case, no costs.

If she won't apologise it will probably go to court as "assault by beating", and at court she will have 3 magistrates or one District Judge shown photographs of weals on the guy's back, while she cannot produce any evidence of her own at all that she was in any danger, far less that it was self defence.

The Bench will have trouble understanding how a person sitting five or six feet up on a horse's back can feel threatened by a man on the floor, or why she could not simply have hit the horse to make it tear its reins away from the man if she was genuinely frightened. Don't shoot the messenger here, I understand perfectly well, as would any rider. The people on the Bench are unlikely to be riders or to understand at all.

Photos of the weals, on the other hand, will speak volumes.

She was entirely in the wrong being where she was. I live in open country. We all know we cannot just go and ride on someone else's land without permission. She was wrong to refuse to give her details, because if the man subsequently discovered damage to his land or stock, he was entitled to demand payment for that.

And to anyone who says how can he have weals - have you tried having yourself hit with a whip with a raised arm from six or eight feet up? To the people who think she can't have hit his back, he was standing close facing her and she hit him overarm over his shoulder. The Bench is likely to think that if she was geniunely frightened she would have hit his hands and/or his face.

OP apologise and have done with it. I am sure you will regret it if you do not, because even if you were (very unlikely) to win the case, it will have cost you hundreds in fees to your lawyers. And if you lose (very likely) you'll be paying an additional several hundred in court costs and doing some unpaid work for the community at weekends instead of riding your horse on other people's land.



ps I have been in this exact same situation, by the way. I gave the guy my name and address and he let go of my horses reins. Same thing would have happened in this case. She could have given him anyone's name and address that sounded female and he would have been happy and let her go. It was her own attitude that caused this problem.
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Totally this! If the OP wants this situation to go away with the minimum of fuss and upset she should just apologise.

It would stick in my throat too, but it's the quickest and most cost effective way to end the situation.

Neither OP or landowner acted totally sensibly but if she makes the apology the problem will go away.
 
mon said:
How rude can Irish dan be saying jumped up landowners, I own land work hard and don't earn a fortune, before you make accusations try being a landowner and earning a living from it or is it jealous. Horse owners like the rest of us must respect things and going where you don't know you are allowed to be is wrong, or I will bring my horse on her lawn or has she keep off signs?
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Seriously?? Riding your horse on my lawn is hardly the same as riding down some farm track, but you are more than welcome:)
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
OP, take a lawyer and your husband with you to the meeting. Don't claim abuse for your horse but do definitely make the point known how scared you were.

Good luck
Terri
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Terri all this girl has to do to make this whole thing go away is to voice a completely insincere apology. That will be the end of it.

If she takes a lawyer with her it will cost her a lot of money.

If she refuses to apologise, it is completely irrelevant whether she is morally in the right or not, she will end up in court and even if she wins she's going to be badly out of pocket.

OP please. Go to the meeting. Swallow your pride. Say "I am very sorry that you were hurt and that I trespassed".

And walk out of there and forget it.

Otherwise, you are going to spoil your Christmas planning for a court case and waste a lot of time, emotional energy and money. You do realise that you probably cannot get legal aid for this, and that you will not be paid back for your lawyer's fees even if you win, don't you?



...
 
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Actually I thought the advice from JanetGeorge was very sensible (as always!). I understood that if you apologised for trespass and offered a shilling (ok showing my age) for any damage, the landowner could take no further action. I would have felt very threatened by the actions of this guy and whose to say any of us would have reacted differently in this situation. I think some of you are being unbelievably hard on the OP, particularly knowing Norfolk well and the type of country. OP - I would be interested in a PM as to exactly where this happened?
 
Irishdan said:
Seriously?? Riding your horse on my lawn is hardly the same as riding down some farm track, but you are more than welcome:)
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agree with this - there is a world of difference between wrecking someones lawn and going down a track.

Ive thought about this scenario since seeing this thread and if someone got hold of my horse’s reins and wouldn’t let go there is NO WAY ON EARTH I would give out my details. Id have my phone out of my pocket and be calling 999 telling them I felt threatened and if he hadn’t let go by then I would do whatever necessary in self defence to blurry well make him let go! In this day and age you never know what the next move would be - haul you off the horse and assault you? *shudder* Id have been terrified!
 
Don't see where the OP was assaulted. I will say one thing to all of you. I've been a victim before. Will never happen again. Unless you know what that's like, you have no idea. Do you wait to be assaulted first or do what you can to get the hell away from someone who is hanging on to your horse. Think of people that have become victims. I can guarantee you if they could do it over they would have changed what they did and gotten away before the situation was beyond their control.

Again I have never wavered in my having respect for what other people own. So unless I have been given permission I would never ride on someone's land. But how you all feel sorry for an over reactive jerk is beyond me. Again she wasn't stealing crops and I seriously doubt she tore the field assunder. Yell at her make her feel very an idiot for trespassing. But you do not grab a horse and continue yelling and becoming aggressive. Some people on here go freaky if someone pet's their precious horsie. Or, OMG, leads Pookie in from a field, or passes to close on another horse. But yet you think a guy hanging out of a bridle while being quite over the top is just fine and dandy because you own land. Yeah, ok.

Terri
 
Sorry to hear about this OP :(

Disregarding the trespassing issue (as this is wrong, signs or no signs but you've learn your lesson by the sounds) as a women's self defence instructor, if I was miles away from help and alone with an aggressive stranger and a flitty horse, I'd have acted in the same way.

I know its wrong but when your safety is threatened your fight or flight instinct kicks in and it's far better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

The man may just have been an aggreived land owner, but who's knows what his next actions would be? Had the OP not fled would he have attempted to drag her from her horse and restrain her until she provided her details? ...... We all know what the OP has done is wrong, but by her own admission she knows this. Until you've been in that situation where you genuinely fear for your safety or perhaps your life, please do not judge her. That is what the court is for.

Its not worth much OP but I'd have done the same had he continued to hold my horse and be confrontational and aggresive.

For the sake of what could be a lengthy court case, I'd go to the meeting, play the 'dumb blonde' and say 'I'm ever so sorry Mr'. Then look up your local bridleways!! Xxx
 
attheponies said:
Actually I thought the advice from JanetGeorge was very sensible (as always!). I understood that if you apologised for trespass and offered a shilling (ok showing my age) for any damage, the landowner could take no further action. I would have felt very threatened by the actions of this guy and whose to say any of us would have reacted differently in this situation. I think some of you are being unbelievably hard on the OP, particularly knowing Norfolk well and the type of country. OP - I would be interested in a PM as to exactly where this happened?
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This isn't, unfortunately, a case of what is fair or even reasonable. It's a case of being able to prove assault by one person while the other has no evidence whatsoever for their explanation. In court, proof goes a long way and the photographs of weals on a grown man, through his clothes, will speak volumes. So will where she hit him and the fact that she did not herself report the incident. I am sympathetic about her fear but even so I find myself questionning why she did not hit his hands to make him let go of the reins, or his head if she could not get at his hands and instead chose to belt his back. It's really not going to look good in court :(

It isn't even a question of her having her day in court and winning. She might. Unlikely, but she might.

But even if she does, it will have ended up costing her a minimum of several hundred pounds in legal fees to prepare her defence and represent her in Court.

To avoid that, all she has to do is swallow her pride and say she is sorry.

Any other course of action would be cutting off her nose to spite her face.
 
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^^ echo what CPT says. The only physical evidence will be the photos of the marks.

In criminal cases the standard of proof is 'beyond reasonable doubt'. It is without doubt that this man was struck, it could be doubted that he acted to provoke this attack as its only the claimants say so to make this allegation. :(
 
Your ground aka lawn, ad mine might vary in size but it is each other property and should be respected, also I have to try and earn a living off mine and are liable if folk get injured insurance wise.
 
Can't help feeling a good lawyer would dispute the injuries he claims to have received. However, this would be a costly route - just wondered OP if you have contacted the CAB for independent advice?
 
Crikey what a horrible situation! I can totally sympathise With OP. my original reaction was that she was in the wrong but had apologised and I hope that it was in genuine faith ie not sarcastic or confrontational and that the landowner may have felt that he wanted more details from her so he could contact the stables she came from to make sure that others didn't follow suit ( this happened to me when I was a naughty teenager and riding on stubble fields without permission!)

However my oh said to me well what would you have done if some man had grabbed my horses rein whilst out hacking alone in countryside and actually had I felt that threatened I.e. he hadn't let go and he was genuinely hurting and scaring me and my horse I am afraid my response would have been to hit him with my crop. Its a bit of a react first think second situation. We all hear too many nasty things happening to people in this world that sadly we often don't think first....

However for a swift resolution I would perhaps now say sorry for being on his land because you are clearly in the wrong becuase it is someones elses property but clearly state that his behaviour was unacceptable at best, dangerous at worst and explain the reasons for why you hit him I.e. you felt threatened and were protecting yourself.

Good luck OP not a great situation to be in and I hope you resolve it soon.
 
CBFan said:
So if someone were to walk brazenly into your front room just because they fancied it, are you telling me you wouldn't behave in an intimidating fashion??!
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Theres a big difference between your front room and an open field, in fact its a poor comparison.
Yes she obviously shouldnt have been trespassing, but he also shouldnt have detained her in a very threatening manner.
OP if i were you id really play up that you were in real fear for your safety at the agression this man was showing, which is why in a panic you lashed out and galloped off
 
zaminda said:
Yes, you were trespassing, but how many of us have got lost on badly signed paths and ended up where we shouldn't? I certainly have! Trespass is not a criminal matter, but assault is, the man was acting dangerously, and threatening you, how did you even know he was the land owner? (I have been accosted by someone on private land, which I had permission to be on, by a dog walker who certainly didn't!!) I think the police should see your actions as self defence, lone female, who has apologised and tried to ride off being accosted by man trying to terrify her? Sorry, but it might be his land, that doesn't stop him from behaving decently. All the, you wouldn't ride through someones garden is slightly off track, and it doesn't sound like the OP is a repeat offender, in which case I could understand him getting irrate, but would still never condone this sort of behaviour, and am amazed that anyone is! I doubt if any of us would go outside and attack people I certainly wouldn't.Take legal advice, I would certainly like to know how he found you, that in itself is rather worrying
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Yes, this!
i think this episode is shocking - how the hell are you supposed to know if he owns the land or not? He had no right to demand your name and address, whoever he is,and should have accepted your apology if he was the landowner. And:mad: to grab and hang on to your horse is indefensible:mad:
 
My two pennies worth.
I think at some point we have all ridden somewhere we maybe shouldn't.
Whether that be unitentionable or deliberatly ignoring people's land ownership rights.

That does not excuse the way this man behaved towards you & your horse.
What if you had fallen off & the horse bolted, what might man's next move have been?

But the law is an ARSE.
You should have gone to the police yourself & reported the threatening & potentially dangerous behaviour.

Out hunting an anti got hold of someone's horse in the same way, the rider hit the anti with his crop across the head & faced assault charges, he put forward a counter assault & the case was dropped.

Can you get legal aid?
If not this could be costly for you if you use a solicitor.
Go to said meeting & state that you were acting in self defence as you feared the man's actions were going to result in you either being assaulted or having an accident with your horse.
They hopefully will take into account the mental trauma you suffered & not just his physical trauma.
Good luck.

By the way I do not think that riders should assume they have a right to ride wherever they please, but I would not expect to be abused if I had unitentionally wronged & apologised for my mistake.
 
Haven't read all the replies but a fair few of them and to be honest I'm shocked and appalled at some of the replies.
I'm terribly sorry but for those of you that think she was in the wrong to do what she did, open your eyes and read the news. See the stories of people being attacked, raped and murdered. This happens far too frequently and TBH in that situation even sat on 17hh of horse I'd be scared stiff and would do anything to get out of that situation. I'd rather belt someone with a stick who was being very aggressive and refusing to take their hand off my horses reins than face the consequences of something far worse.
Shame on you those that have berated the OP, actually think for a moment before posting and put yourself in her shoes. If something bad had happened and she had been assaulted or worse murdered would your opinion change!And yes I think she knows she was in the wrong initially, two wrongs don't make a right.
 
I do get your point CP and I most likely would swallow my pride and apologise to make it go away. I would have my husband with me though.

Had this been me though I would have reported it straight away to the police as soon as my horse was put away. But I am telling you, nobody will do something like that to me and me just take it. Like I said, I was a victim once. It will never happen again. He never would have had a chance to put a hand on me or my horse.

But I clearly am not in the camp of landowner had the right to act like an idiot.

Terri
 
It could have ended a lot worse. Recently a local landowner confronted bikers tearing around his newly seeded field (saw a bare field, I suspect, thinking no harm done), a chase ensued, a biker was unseated and the landowners vehicle hit a rutt and the vehicle overturned, killing the biker. So very sad but totally unecessary.

There could have been hidden dangers in the field, rabbit holes, discarded wire, allsorts. I have ridden off piste a few times and tbh have not enjoyed it as I was worried about being caught where I shouldn't be, knowing it to be wrong. Its just not worth it.

I would apologise for your outburst, you reacted because he started to scare you and was worried for your safety, being all alone and iit was out of character. TBH, I think I would have done the same to get away from him if he was being intimidating.

If I see somewhere I would like to ride I often find out who owns the land and approach them. Sometimes a yes, a lot of time a no.
 
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Only read a few responses so sorry if I am repeating anything! There is no such thing as assault of a horse or any other animal for that matter. Animals are considered property in the eyes of the law, so even if a horse is purposely injured by a human the most it would be is criminal damage. Frustrating yes but that's English law for you. You must have admitted the assault for the police to offer you restorative justice. If you don't go along with that you may end up with a caution or worse a charge for what is considered a violent crime and it will stay on your record. Maybe you could tactfully explain your reasons and what he did upset your horse. Not a nice situation but as others have said you were trespassing, and to hit someone to cause welts is unsurprisingly considered excessive by the police in those circumstances.
 
It is quite possible to pull a horse over backwards by hanging on the bit from the ground. This is potentially life threatening for the rider. I would say she acted in self defence.
I don't believe he had the right to restrain someone who had already apologised.

I am glad I live in Scotland where this sort of behaviour would not be defended.
 
ozpoz said:
It is quite possible to pull a horse over backwards by hanging on the bit from the ground. This is potentially life threatening for the rider. I would say she acted in self defence.
I don't believe he had the right to restrain someone who had already apologised.

I am glad I live in Scotland where this sort of behaviour would not be defended.
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Agreed
 
Don't think OP can claim self defense now she has admitted it. OP if you were interviewed at a police station you were entitled to free and independent legal advice, if at your home then at your own expense and now prior to your meeting would be at your own expense. WWID? Apologise with gritted teeth and not trespass again.
 
I have nothing else to add that others haven't already said and I'm probably going to totally change the subject but....

If what Bubley898 says is true that there is no law to protect animals against abuse, does that mean that when someone intentionally harms a horse (as has been seen a lot over the years, slashing etc) it is just criminal damage!? If so, that's disgusting... What's the difference between someone murdering a human to someone murdering a horse...?
 
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