Insurers get tough on 'barefoot' horse claims

[LucyPriory]

I can't comment on the NFU position - just that I know they insure barefoot trimmers.

I am insured by Eastlake and Beachell a company which insures farriers. Every year my premium goes down. It wasn't that much to begin with.

As previous poster said, insurers are concerned with risk, not morals. Obviously E&B must think me pretty low risk as my premium was low to start with and is getting lower, despite my workload going through the roof.

I do have a genuine concern with some hoof care work. Over the years I have seen some pretty shoddy stuff. And the genuine truth of it is that all of the really bad work has been done by registered farriers, even award winning ones.

I have come across poor work by trimmers, mostly owner trimmers, but not always, but none of them have done the sometimes substantial damage I've seen done to shod horses.

 

[SO1]

We are not like the states here litigation is rare the likihood of a trimmer or farrier being sued is small. For example how many of the people on here who mention farriers being responsible for problems that their horses had actually sued their farriers - none I expect.

Because insurance actuaries are only interested in risk and the fact is that even a badly trained trimmer is unlikely to do enough damage to result in an insurance claim, now that Strasser is effectively illegal in this country. Their bet is that they will recieve more in insurance premiums than they will ever pay out in claims. I think they are right.

I agree with what some others have said here that the trimmers need to come across as more professional with one governing body with an accredited qualification based on scientic facts to lobby for them and it will probably take a few years for them to set themselves up. At the moment anyone can set themselves up as a trimmer or set up an organisation registering trimmers which causes confussion for insurance companies and customers. I think if there was one organisation which had the backing of the majority of vets as well as farriers they would get recognition. A really respected trimming organisation may also get farriers and vets signing up with them too.

 

[LucyPriory]

A really respected trimming organisation may also get farriers and vets signing up with them too.

You mean like the AANHCP - which was started by a farrier, has a fair number of ex farriers in the ranks and has vet members too?

And I found out about a year ago that my vet from when I was much younger has trained as a trimmer too.

 

[alsiola]

You mean like the AANHCP - which was started by a farrier, has a fair number of ex farriers in the ranks and has vet members too?

They might be better respected if their founder didn't come out with statements such as...

As strange as it seems — the bones neither
carry weight nor propel mass! In short, they are
simply “along for the ride”.

Made with complete disregard for scientific evidence, and supported only by mindless thought experiments.

I'm not anti-barefoot, and do think the majority of horses I see do not require shoes. The problem I have is that if I recommend a trimmer to someone, then I'm concerned that alongside good foot care and sensible dietary advice, they are also going to preach anti-scientific drivel in which I will appear complicit.

 

[hairycob]

Juat had a look on their website - they list 7 practitioners in the in the UK.

 

[cptrayes]

I agree with what some others have said here that the trimmers need to come across as more professional with one governing body with an accredited qualification based on scientic facts to lobby for them and it will probably take a few years for them to set themselves up. At the moment anyone can set themselves up as a trimmer or set up an organisation registering trimmers which causes confussion for insurance companies and customers. I think if there was one organisation which had the backing of the majority of vets as well as farriers they would get recognition. A really respected trimming organisation may also get farriers and vets signing up with them too.

I do not think that it is good for the horse or the horse owning community for horse foot care to be split between two organisations at all, never mind more than two as at present. If the WCF would only get its act together we could move away from the dafter statements made by K C la Pierre as pointed out by Alsiola, (a vet), and know where to go for hoof care for our horses.

The "really respected trimming organisation" should, in my opinion, be the WCF, otherwise we have this crazy situation where KC trademarks his "High Performance Trim, HPT" in order to market it, some AANHCP bang on about wild horses and owners worry that one trim is different from another and fret over which they should choose. It's such a load of nonsense. Farriers could all be great barefoot hoofcare practitioners if only their apprenticeships would teach them to be.

And who better to have trim your barefoot horse for you than the person who can actually apply a shoe should you need it, like in the case of a foot bone fracture?

 

[amandap]

I think that quote Alsiola posted was written by Jaime Jackson (not K. C.) in one of his articles. I seem to remember discussion about the article a good while ago on Vet board.
I remember understanding what he (JJ) was getting at.

 

[cptrayes]

I think that quote Alsiola posted was written by Jaime Jackson (not K. C.) in one of his articles. I seem to remember discussion about the article a good while ago on Vet board.
I remember understanding what he (JJ) was getting at.

Oh yes I think you are right Amanda. I read the whole article and thought I understood what he meant but that it didn't really make any sense as he wrote it.

I'm confusing it with KC's book that I found contained a lot of unreadable pseudoscientific gobbledegook. At one point he actually suggests a trimmer judge the sole plane by holding a rasp parallel with the sole of the foot but not touching it. This would be a physical impossibility, judging "parallel" while holding a rasp suspended above a horse's foot and looking down on it

I think it is a real problem for people wanting to go barefoot to know who the devil to trust among the four organisations and many unqualified or part qualified people. I just found out that someone who I thought was very good is only part qualified. It's a minefield and I blame the WCF (just in case you hadn't noticed )

 

[indie999]

Why on earth would people who wish to learn to trim horses feet need to spend four years apprenticed to someone who nails shoes to feet what a waste of time.

The reason is some horses can do with shoes and some without so they can offer a full professional service. Unfortunately not everyone agrees with barefoot or can do barefoot.
One professional body for all. I have both options with my wonderful farrier.

It puts me off buying a horse if I cannot put shoes on it(ie if remedial is ever needed) I like to have that option. I think all horses should be able to take shoes if ever needed.

Why do registered chiropodists spend years learning to do foot work? I think its about 3 years????

Its raising the standards thats all.

 

[SO1]

You are completely right this would be the best scenario. My farrier does shoes and trims and I am not sure if the trims are the same as the barefoot trims people talk about or something completely different most confussing! Some clients have shoes on all four hooves, some have trims only and some like my pony have a combination, he has front shoes only and trims on the back hooves which works well for him, sometimes he does not need his backs trimming as my farrier checks them says they are balanced and have worn down evenly and don't need doing.

I would say that most farriers who are good at shoeing should be good at trimming as surely they have to balance and trim the hoof before they put the shoe on.

I do not think that it is good for the horse or the horse owning community for horse foot care to be split between two organisations at all, never mind more than two as at present. If the WCF would only get its act together we could move away from the dafter statements made by K C la Pierre as pointed out by Alsiola, (a vet), and know where to go for hoof care for our horses.

The "really respected trimming organisation" should, in my opinion, be the WCF, otherwise we have this crazy situation where KC trademarks his "High Performance Trim, HPT" in order to market it, some AANHCP bang on about wild horses and owners worry that one trim is different from another and fret over which they should choose. It's such a load of nonsense. Farriers could all be great barefoot hoofcare practitioners if only their apprenticeships would teach them to be.

And who better to have trim your barefoot horse for you than the person who can actually apply a shoe should you need it, like in the case of a foot bone fracture?

 

[Holly Hocks]

I think NFU are right. Would you go to see a GP that had a crash course in medicine?

No I don't go to my GP who has trained for several years at all - I go and see the practice nurse who has had a fraction of the training. There isn't one GP at my practice who I would consider going to see.....

 

[LucyPriory]

I am fortunate to have a reasonable command of the written word, although I am the first to realise it is far from perfect.

In previous jobs my role included rewriting the words of many people, all educated to the highest standard, but completely unable to make themselves understood in written English.

I think it is rather cruel and disrespectful to deride someone just because they are less fortunate, in any respect, including an inability to express themselves clearly.

Which is just as well because few in the medical professions are able to write in an accessible, user friendly form.

And I do agree JJ's use of English (American) is dreadful, and so is some of the material he produces, but he is no worse than any English vet I have come across, bar maybe two.

In the spirit of Easter, let's be generous and cherish people for their good points and accept that none of us are perfect, no matter how hard we try.

 

[cptrayes]

Alsiola is a vet Lucy, and I see her point entirely if she was to recommend an AANHCP trimmer who believed every word Jaime writes, who then tells her client that horses don't carry weight on their bones. He's done a lot of great stuff, but he has positioned himself, by his publications, as an expert in horse movement. We have to be able to criticise someone who puts himself in that position if he publishes nonsense, even if a lot of what he has done is great, sorry

 

[amandap]

I am 100% with Lucy on this one.
If we disregard someone because of one or two aspects then we must disregard everyone. Including my vet who told me emphatically that wet grass causes diarrhoea. I still use him and respect him.

JJ's writing is hard to follow but I look way past that to how much he has done for horses and desperate owners. He was my original inspiration and source of answers to my questions when I was looking for answers that made sense. Imo his methods have stood the test of time exceptionally well and been a foundation for thousands of gifted trimmers who have gone on to learn even more. Surely that's what matters.

ps. If we must only listen to 'scientists' the world would stop turning and imo we'd be in a right old state. lol

PPs.My Uncle was an academic and it was difficult to hold a conversation with him. I often think many inspirational and gifted people who think out of the box are like this. Imo we need people like this in the world.

 

[Goldenstar]

The reason is some horses can do with shoes and some without so they can offer a full professional service. Unfortunately not everyone agrees with barefoot or can do barefoot.
One professional body for all. I have both options with my wonderful farrier.

It puts me off buying a horse if I cannot put shoes on it(ie if remedial is ever needed) I like to have that option. I think all horses should be able to take shoes if ever needed.

Why do registered chiropodists spend years learning to do foot work? I think its about 3 years????

Its raising the standards thats all.

My point is there is no point in training people to shoe if they are never going to do it also a lot of the time apprentices are not in training they are out on there own shoeing I hardly ever see the farrier only the apprentices who are out and about before qualification practising on people's horses.
I have no problem with swopping between the farrier and the trimmer and swopping between shod and unshod.
By the way I dont mind the apprentices shoeing mine they are thoughtful young men very enaged with their training and I am happy with their careful thoughtful work .
But barefoot needs to ditch the physio babble that some of the more self publishising ones have gone in for and get professional finally all of this is not rocket science the principles are simple .

 

[LucyPriory]

Alsiola is a vet Lucy, and I see her point entirely if she was to recommend an AANHCP trimmer who believed every word Jaime writes, who then tells her client that horses don't carry weight on their bones. He's done a lot of great stuff, but he has positioned himself, by his publications, as an expert in horse movement. We have to be able to criticise someone who puts himself in that position if he publishes nonsense, even if a lot of what he has done is great, sorry

I know, and I agree with you. But I think my point may have been missed. We all fail to express ourselves clearly from time to time. Including many vets. Including vets that publish books, articles and research papers. Particularly this group perhaps.

Personally I don't have a huge amount of time for JJ. He presents himself as an expert on a huge range of issues for which he lacks sufficient experience or training. So what's new? I find that all the time with vets, farriers, riding instructors, barefoot trimmers, the person on the supermarket checkout, politicians, tv presenters and let's be honest a lot of people who post on forums.

My point is that just because most of us can be pretty dumb at times I don't find it at all helpful to fail to explore someone's point of view, to try to shut down intelligent discussion or to condemn a group of people because of this. (Although some of the religions do try my patience). As always it is our responsibility to sort the wheat from the chaff. The problems occur when people lack the resources (and willingness to make the effort) to do this.

If some individuals didn't make the effort to step out from the crowd, to try and maybe fail, and possibly look a complete idiot for all to see, then we would still be killing navic horses that could be rehabbed by taking their shoes off and changing their diet/exercise. And I would still be treating my horses for sprains when they actually suffer from laminitis. And Grace would be on the meat lorry, put there by a vet who failed to realise she needs a low carb diet. She would be equally dead mind, if I had followed a particular barefoot guru's dietary advice!

 

[LucyPriory]

I have come across two people who have 'burnt their horse's frogs out' because someone on this forum suggested they use a bleach type product to treat thrush.

 

[amandap]

I have come across two people who have 'burnt their horse's frogs out' because someone on this forum suggested they use a bleach type product to treat thrush.

I will never mention even cleantrax again.

 

[LucyPriory]

I am 100% with Lucy on this one.
If we disregard someone because of one or two aspects then we must disregard everyone. Including my vet who told me emphatically that wet grass causes diarrhoea. I still use him and respect him.

JJ's writing is hard to follow but I look way past that to how much he has done for horses and desperate owners. He was my original inspiration and source of answers to my questions when I was looking for answers that made sense. Imo his methods have stood the test of time exceptionally well and been a foundation for thousands of gifted trimmers who have gone on to learn even more. Surely that's what matters.

ps. If we must only listen to 'scientists' the world would stop turning and imo we'd be in a right old state. lol

PPs.My Uncle was an academic and it was difficult to hold a conversation with him. I often think many inspirational and gifted people who think out of the box are like this. Imo we need people like this in the world.

We cross posted Amandap - I agree with you wholeheartedly too. Just check out the history - we would still be condemning those who argued the world was round and not flat and we'd still be burning witches at the stake and putting kids up chimneys (although that might not be a bad idea...........) and I remember learning that the 'educated' folk used to argue that the world would fall apart if we abolished slavery. The list is endless.

And re your point about your vet. I have the same with mine. Not the best diagnostician on the planet, but honest about it. And he doesn't get up his own backside in awe of himself - instead he realises he is just an ordinary human being the same as everyone else. As do all the best vets I've come across.

 

[LucyPriory]

I will never mention even cleantrax again.

it wasn't you (as far as memory serves) and it wasn't cleantrax.

 

[cptrayes]

I have come across two people who have 'burnt their horse's frogs out' because someone on this forum suggested they use a bleach type product to treat thrush.

That's two more idiots in the world we have identifed then, if they were not even looking at what was happening to their horse's frogs with whatever product they were using.

My own vet recommended thin bleach itself, not even a "bleach product", and it works, but surely only a half-wit would use it until it "burnt out" a frog?

 

[cptrayes]

I know, and I agree with you. But I think my point may have been missed. We all fail to express ourselves clearly from time to time. Including many vets. Including vets that publish books, articles and research papers. Particularly this group perhaps.

Personally I don't have a huge amount of time for JJ. He presents himself as an expert on a huge range of issues for which he lacks sufficient experience or training. So what's new? I find that all the time with vets, farriers, riding instructors, barefoot trimmers, the person on the supermarket checkout, politicians, tv presenters and let's be honest a lot of people who post on forums.

My point is that just because most of us can be pretty dumb at times I don't find it at all helpful to fail to explore someone's point of view, to try to shut down intelligent discussion or to condemn a group of people because of this. (Although some of the religions do try my patience). As always it is our responsibility to sort the wheat from the chaff. The problems occur when people lack the resources (and willingness to make the effort) to do this.

If some individuals didn't make the effort to step out from the crowd, to try and maybe fail, and possibly look a complete idiot for all to see, then we would still be killing navic horses that could be rehabbed by taking their shoes off and changing their diet/exercise. And I would still be treating my horses for sprains when they actually suffer from laminitis. And Grace would be on the meat lorry, put there by a vet who failed to realise she needs a low carb diet. She would be equally dead mind, if I had followed a particular barefoot guru's dietary advice!

This is very sound

 

[alsiola]

I am fortunate to have a reasonable command of the written word, although I am the first to realise it is far from perfect.

In previous jobs my role included rewriting the words of many people, all educated to the highest standard, but completely unable to make themselves understood in written English.

I think it is rather cruel and disrespectful to deride someone just because they are less fortunate, in any respect, including an inability to express themselves clearly.

Which is just as well because few in the medical professions are able to write in an accessible, user friendly form.

And I do agree JJ's use of English (American) is dreadful, and so is some of the material he produces, but he is no worse than any English vet I have come across, bar maybe two.

In the spirit of Easter, let's be generous and cherish people for their good points and accept that none of us are perfect, no matter how hard we try.

If I came across as deriding his style/clarity of writing then I have mistyped. While his articles aren't the easiest to read I felt I understood the message he was trying to convey. It was the underlying thinking behind it that I disagreed with, and the presentation of speculative theorisation as proven fact. I agree that communication - especially written - is also often poor in veterinary medicine, and that are many vets who will also present their personal ideas as unanimously accepted. Vets who do this should be challenged just as much as any trimmer, farrier, physiotherapist or chiropractor. I hope that this is gradually changing in the veterinary world - vets who qualify now have a much better foundation as scientists than those of 20 years ago in my opinion.

Essentially I was just using his writing - admittedly a cherry picked excerpt - to demonstrate the issue I have with promoting barefoot trimming. Although these American trimmers may have been instrumental in founding the modern approach to barefoot horses, I feel that it would be advantageous both to practising barefoot trimmers to distance themselves from their quasi-evangelical views.

 

[amandap]

Which brings us nicely back to owners taking some responsibility in, as was said earlier, "sorting the wheat from the chaff ". Any professional can only advise, they cannot be responsible for what someone does with that information.
The point about striving for clarity and simplicity in things is also very important I believe. In situations where there is no direct feedback and clarification of understanding it is well known that what people actually understand from the same information in the same format, has huge variation.
The more we coddle ourselves with 'oh it'll be ok because this 'expert' said so', the more we will try/use the get out of goal free cards of blame and litigation if something goes wrong. Trouble is the horse is in the middle of all this.

 

[Amaranta]

I have come across two people who have 'burnt their horse's frogs out' because someone on this forum suggested they use a bleach type product to treat thrush.

Hydrogen Peroxide does treat thrush well, but is very old fashioned, I agree with cptrayes, only an idiot would burn out a frog with it.

However, idiots abound, there was a woman on facebook recently who advocated puting bleach (of the houshold type) in drinking water, to keep it fresh I have to say she backtracked rapidly when people expressed their horror

 

[amandap]

There's already more than enough bleach in drinking water. I've got flouride too here, I don't drink it and I now collect rain water for the horses to drink as one of mine is definitely adversely affected by the tap water here.

 

[LucyPriory]

If I came across as deriding his style/clarity of writing then I have mistyped. While his articles aren't the easiest to read I felt I understood the message he was trying to convey. It was the underlying thinking behind it that I disagreed with, and the presentation of speculative theorisation as proven fact. I agree that communication - especially written - is also often poor in veterinary medicine, and that are many vets who will also present their personal ideas as unanimously accepted. Vets who do this should be challenged just as much as any trimmer, farrier, physiotherapist or chiropractor. I hope that this is gradually changing in the veterinary world - vets who qualify now have a much better foundation as scientists than those of 20 years ago in my opinion.

Essentially I was just using his writing - admittedly a cherry picked excerpt - to demonstrate the issue I have with promoting barefoot trimming. Although these American trimmers may have been instrumental in founding the modern approach to barefoot horses, I feel that it would be advantageous both to practising barefoot trimmers to distance themselves from their quasi-evangelical views.

I agree

 

[paddy555]

Although these American trimmers may have been instrumental in founding the modern approach to barefoot horses, I feel that it would be advantageous both to practising barefoot trimmers to distance themselves from their quasi-evangelical views.

How different it would have been if, 10/12 years ago the WFC had come on board... People turned to Strasser. They knew there was a better way for navics and laminitics. They were proved right. WFC didn't want to know. Strasser was the only option. The American trimmers only came as UK ones didn't want to know. KC was asked over in desperation to provide an alternative to break the Strasser stronghold. How ridiculous we thought it was at the time that whilst we had well trained trimmers (AKA farriers) in the UK we had to look abroad for people to come and teach us to trim. We had to learn to trim ourselves BTW as the majority of farriers simply didn't want to know about BF horses.

I wonder what it would be like today if WFC had got it's act together all those years ago. We could have had a system whereby trimmers were tested and registered with WFC. Vets would be happy to recomend them.
There would be none of the BF and anti arguments. BF methods would just be another method in the toolbox.
Dream on for another 10 years I suppose.

 

[Goldenstar]

I feel that it would be advantageous both to practising barefoot trimmers to distance themselves from their quasi-qevangelical views.

I also agree strongly with this it put me agaist trying barefoot for a long time.
At the time even people calling it barefoot put my teeth on edge I used to think why the h**l can't they call it working without shoes, horses dont have feet.
My curiosity got me in the end

 

[LucyPriory]

How different it would have been if, 10/12 years ago the WFC had come on board... People turned to Strasser. They knew there was a better way for navics and laminitics. They were proved right. WFC didn't want to know. Strasser was the only option. The American trimmers only came as UK ones didn't want to know. KC was asked over in desperation to provide an alternative to break the Strasser stronghold. How ridiculous we thought it was at the time that whilst we had well trained trimmers (AKA farriers) in the UK we had to look abroad for people to come and teach us to trim. We had to learn to trim ourselves BTW as the majority of farriers simply didn't want to know about BF horses.

I wonder what it would be like today if WFC had got it's act together all those years ago. We could have had a system whereby trimmers were tested and registered with WFC. Vets would be happy to recomend them.
There would be none of the BF and anti arguments. BF methods would just be another method in the toolbox.
Dream on for another 10 years I suppose.

and it does well to remember Strasser is a vet