Insurers get tough on 'barefoot' horse claims

[Goldenstar]

I'm wasting my typing time but repeat, many trimmers have done much more than a crash course. Perhaps if your farrier looked at say for eg. UKNHCP training or did some of their CPD he might find out why some vets use 'good' trimmers.

You are wasting your time, the people who are completly convinced that just because a farrier has studied for four years he must be doing a good job will change that view.
But every show I go to I see examples of horrendous shoeing done by farriers that have studied for four years.
A proportion of these horses will suffer shoeing induced long term injury that just how it is.
I was fortunate to have at a great young farrier at one time who trained me to look at shoes all the time to asses balance he was great.
What did he do ? Went on to start a barefoot practise and train farriers and trimmers.

 

[quirky]

I'm wasting my typing time but repeat, many trimmers have done much more than a crash course. Perhaps if your farrier looked at say for eg. UKNHCP training or did some of their CPD he might find out why some vets use 'good' trimmers.

Yes and there are others that boast of doing a 3 week course and then promote themselves as qualified.

I think the crux of the matter is, we all know how long a farrier has spent training. A barefoot bod can do 3 weeks or 3 years training and pitch themselves at the same competence level.
Until barefoot people have a recognised and transparent syllabus to follow I think they'll be on a hiding to nothing.

As for angle grinders I would not let anybody near my horse with one. Soft tissues and rotating metal discs should be kept a respectful distance apart imo .... and that would be more than the length of a pastern!

 

[amandap]

Anyone can tell you they are qualified it's up to the owner to check. It seems even some (I'm sure a small minority) farriers aren't qualified but how many owners check the register?

 

[quirky]

Anyone can tell you they are qualified it's up to the owner to check. It seems even some (I'm sure a small minority) farriers aren't qualified but how many owners check the register?

I have moved round the country and have always sourced my new farrier off the register. Needed to find a number for them somewhere

 

[LadyRascasse]

I am not saying all trimmers are bad, just i personally would always use a farrier. Like is said previously I have had a horse crippled by bad shoeing, and seen others badly shod but I am very happy with my farrier and would never change him. I have also seen some horses crippled by some barefoot trimmers. For my piece of mind I would have to use a farrier as they are accountable and there is a legal procedure you can go though should you be unhappy with them. I suppose this is a bit like good dealer/ bad dealer debate.

 

[amandap]

I have moved round the country and have always sourced my new farrier off the register. Needed to find a number for them somewhere

That's the way to get one and by recommendation if you're lucky enough to have a choice.

It is in the end personal choice who you use be it farrier or trimmer but you must take steps to ensure they are up to the job.

 

[SusieT]

'We Barefoot Taliban would never do that with the farriers'
You only have to look at this thread to see that thats not ture. The suggestion that all farriers leave horses standing in pools of blood/lame/let their dogs run around.

 

[SusieT]

And here's a question-why do barefoot trimmers NOT set themselves up a properly recognised course so that we can all move past the 'but they're not qualified' sticking point?

 

[Oberon]

'We Barefoot Taliban would never do that with the farriers'
You only have to look at this thread to see that thats not ture. The suggestion that all farriers leave horses standing in pools of blood/lame/let their dogs run around.

I'm afraid you are misquoting. I never said anything about dogs or laming horses (although I could share more stories).

I mentioned a farrier left my healthy horse standing in pools of blood after a routine trim. That is a fact and that is when I turned to using a trimmer.

I don't slag off farriers.

But I am explaining my decision to use a trimmer and why, after they've been doing a great job for many years now, I will continue to do so despite the NFU decision.

 

[LucyPriory]

And here's a question-why do barefoot trimmers NOT set themselves up a properly recognised course so that we can all move past the 'but they're not qualified' sticking point?

Actually if you read previous threads you will realise they have. There are now agreed NOS, but so far no funding to adminster them.

I even got a government grant for part of my training.

 

[Oberon]

And here's a question-why do barefoot trimmers NOT set themselves up a properly recognised course so that we can all move past the 'but they're not qualified' sticking point?

There has been many mentions on this thread that main organisations have been trying for many years.

They were very excited in 2007 that it would all be sorted 'soon'

 

[Goldenstar]

'We Barefoot Taliban would never do that with the farriers'
You only have to look at this thread to see that thats not ture. The suggestion that all farriers leave horses standing in pools of blood/lame/let their dogs run around.

If my memory serves me right one person had had a pools of blood episode , one mentained unruly dogs ( mine does this it drives me mad big dog growls at mine pees on Haynets) .
The trimmers need to sort their status no one disaggrees with this I dont think.
It's in a way a new disapline and I think in time it will become more mainstream.

 

[cptrayes]

'We Barefoot Taliban would never do that with the farriers'
You only have to look at this thread to see that thats not ture. The suggestion that all farriers leave horses standing in pools of blood/lame/let their dogs run around.

Why is it that every time a barefoot taliban member says "a farrier did this to my horse", that we are accused by the anti-barefoot brigade of saying "all farriers do this to all horses" ?

No-one on this thread has said "all" farriers do anything.

So let's drop that old rant now, shall we?

And here's a question-why do barefoot trimmers NOT set themselves up a properly recognised course so that we can all move past the 'but they're not qualified' sticking point?

They have, long ago. There are four reputable trimming organisations with lengthy and expensive training with fully qualified trimmers operating in the UK - AEP, UKEP, ANHCP, UKNHCP. As I belong to none of them I think I can say without prejudice that from my point of view, having looked closely at them all, that there are minor differences in what they are taught to do, but that in the end every sound working barefoot horse's foot ends up looking as if it could have been done by any of them or by a farrier.

 

[Amaranta]

They have, long ago. There are four reputable trimming organisations with lengthy and expensive training with fully qualified trimmers operating in the UK - AEP, UKEP, ANHCP, UKNHCP. As I belong to none of them I think I can say without prejudice that from my point of view, having looked closely at them all, that there are minor differences in what they are taught to do, but that in the end every sound working barefoot horse's foot ends up looking as if it could have been done by any of them or by a farrier.

That could be part of your problem, why on earth are there four separate organisations? Surely one, with clearly defined standards would be better? Having four just muddies the waters

 

[LadyRascasse]

Would it not be better for the farriers council to run a qualification for people to be qualified as just trimmers? That way they are fully accountable for there actions in a court of law/insured and have CPD.

 

[indie999]

ok Why do BAREFOOT trimmers do the FARRIER training and do barefoot afterwards then??????

ie that it is an extra discipline in addition to a profession.

Farriers were registered due to poor or non existent hoof care years ago! Now we are going backwards with other organisations? They should be united.

So barefoot become farriers.

 

[Amaranta]

ok Why do BAREFOOT trimmers do the FARRIER training and do barefoot afterwards then??????

ie that it is an extra discipline in addition to a profession.

Farriers were registered due to poor or non existent hoof care years ago! Now we are going backwards with other organisations? They should be united.

So barefoot become farriers.

Sounds like a good starting plan to me

 

[cptrayes]

That could be part of your problem, why on earth are there four separate organisations? Surely one, with clearly defined standards would be better? Having four just muddies the waters

"Your problem" - "We" don't have a problem. There is no "we".

It is history that there were two US organisations and the UK arms split off leaving 4. They do all operate to the same standards, the NOS standards that have already been pointed to in previous posts.

The answer to this mess is for the WCF to get its finger out and train trimmers who are not accredited to shoe, on a shorter apprenticeship, AND to train shoeing farriers better in how to manage barefoot horses.

Then we can put a law in place making it illegal to trim for payment unless you are registered.

Blame the WCF for this fiasco, for not responding to what people need. Don't blame the trimming organisations, all they have done is try to fill a gaping great hole in the horse foot care market.

 

[YorksG]

Why is it that every time a barefoot taliban member says "a farrier did this to my horse", that we are accused by the anti-barefoot brigade of saying "all farriers do this to all horses" ?

No-one on this thread has said "all" farriers do anything.

So let's drop that old rant now, shall we?




They have, long ago. There are four reputable trimming organisations with lengthy and expensive training with fully qualified trimmers operating in the UK - AEP, UKEP, ANHCP, UKNHCP. As I belong to none of them I think I can say without prejudice that from my point of view, having looked closely at them all, that there are minor differences in what they are taught to do, but that in the end every sound working barefoot horse's foot ends up looking as if it could have been done by any of them or by a farrier.

The fact that there are four trimming organisations speaks volumes to me. Until they can agree one umbrella organisation, which can then regulate all 'qualified' trimmers, they will appear to be at best amateur. They cannot hope to present a well regulated work force, when they do not all work to the same standard. The cost of a regulatory body is usually born by the members.

 

[Amaranta]

"Your problem" - "We" don't have a problem. There is no "we".

It is history that there were two US organisations and the UK arms split off leaving 4. They do all operate to the same standards, the NOS standards that have already been pointed to in previous posts.

The answer to this mess is for the WCF to get its finger out and train trimmers who are not accredited to shoe, on a shorter apprenticeship, AND to train shoeing farriers better in how to manage barefoot horses.

Blame the WCF for this fiasco, for not responding to what people need. Don't blame the trimming organisations, all they have done is try to fill a gaping great hole in the horse foot care market.

But YOU do have a problem, at present there is no ONE governing body who trains, regulates and polices barefoot practitioners. This organisation should be liaising with WCF, at present there is nothing to prevent anyone setting themselves up as a trimmer, this is wrong and not best practice. Instead of lambasting the WCF for not taking you seriously, you (in a generic sense) have to prove that you deserve to be recognised and have something to offer THEM.

Taking the 'I know better' or 'why should we' stance is going to get you absolutely nowhere.

 

[amandap]

There is one easy answer to those who dislike trimming and that is... just stick to your butch, handsome farrier and keep your horse 'safe' in your eyes whilst enjoying the view. Don't use a red head though.

I'm off to spend some lovely time rather than be involved in this revolving pointless thread.

 

[cptrayes]

But YOU do have a problem, at present there is no ONE governing body who trains, regulates and polices barefoot practitioners. This organisation should be liaising with WCF, at present there is nothing to prevent anyone setting themselves up as a trimmer, this is wrong and not best practice. Instead of lambasting the WCF for not taking you seriously, you (in a generic sense) have to prove that you deserve to be recognised and have something to offer THEM.

Taking the 'I know better' or 'why should we' stance is going to get you absolutely nowhere.

Who do you think "you" is?

I am not even a paid trimmer, I only do my own. There is no "you", there are only an increasing number of individuals trying to help other people, some of whom make a living from barefoot trimming and have been properly trained.

The WCF have let people down by not listening to barefoot trimmers or to people who have had big problems with shoeing. I fail to see how it is the fault of the trimming groups that they have had, in the face of some fierce and very nastily worded opposition from many, many farriers to set up their own training to provide what the WCF do not.

It is much to the credit of UKNHCP that their courses are accredited for points for CPD for farriers. They DO talk to the WCF.

"This organisation should be liaising with WCF,"

I disagree. It should BE the WCF but they are failing to bite the bullet. They've made a change in their syllabus of a few words which are completely meaningless unless an apprentice is one of the lucky few who trains with a master who has working barefoot horses on his books.

The WCF is at fault here, not the trimming organisations who have simply responded to customer demand to fill a hole that the WCF steadfastly refuse to accept exists.

If I had a tenner for every farrier who is STILL saying that all horses doing a lot of roadwork need shoes I'd be a rich woman.

 

[ferrador]

one thing i do not really understand is how a trimmer can get liability insurance if they supposerly have no recognised professional qualification and registration .
chris

 

[Amaranta]

Who do you think "you" is?

I am not even a paid trimmer, I only do my own. There is no "you", there are only an increasing number of individuals trying to help other people, some of whom make a living from barefoot trimming and have been properly trained.

The WCF have let people down by not listening to barefoot trimmers or to people who have had big problems with shoeing. I fail to see how it is the fault of the trimming groups that they have had, in the face of some fierce and very nastily worded opposition from many, many farriers to set up their own training to provide what the WCF do not.

It is much to the credit of UKNHCP that their courses are accredited for points for CPD for farriers. They DO talk to the WCF.

"This organisation should be liaising with WCF,"

I disagree. It should BE the WCF but they are failing to bite the bullet. They've made a change in their syllabus of a few words which are completely meaningless unless an apprentice is one of the lucky few who trains with a master who has working barefoot horses on his books.

The WCF is at fault here, not the trimming organisations who have simply responded to customer demand to fill a hole that the WCF steadfastly refuse to accept exists.

If I had a tenner for every farrier who is STILL saying that all horses doing a lot of roadwork need shoes I'd be a rich woman.

I meant the You in a generic sense, you may only do your own but there are many who practice commercially, it is these people particularly who need to have properly recognised qualifications, they, like farriers, also need policing - at the moment anyone can practice - even people like Mrs Angle Grinder

Having four governing bodies is a shambolic state of affairs and until this is remedied nothing will change and more insurance companies will make it an excuse not to pay out.

You miss my point, you simply cannot expect the WCF to bend over backwards to accomodate you (again I mean you in a generic sense) and then blame them when they don't. It is up to you to prove to them that you have something to offer them, this could take years and before they will even think about you seriously, you need to get your house in order and sort out your governing body. Interestingly, my farrier recently attended a barefoot course, I believe this was through the WCF so it does appear they are doing something.

My last two farriers buck your trend btw, both actively encouraged me to keep my horses unshod

 

[Cedars]

Having read all of this thread, I have one thing to say.

GET A GRIP.

Those who's farriers have been awful-sack them and get another. Those who want to trim, get trained or a trained person and crack on. Those who's farriers insist on horses being shod, get a new farrier. Those who insist on being barefoot, get real.

THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS IN LIFE!

 

[PeterNatt]

I am afraid that I do not have a link to the article as I read it as hard copy on page 13 in ETN (Equestrian Trade News) April 2012 Volume 36 No 4 Monthly published by Equestrian Managements Consultants Ltd Equestrian Trade News Stockeld Park Wetherby West Yorkshire LS22 4AW

 

[Goldenstar]

ok Why do BAREFOOT trimmers do the FARRIER training and do barefoot afterwards then??????

ie that it is an extra discipline in addition to a profession.

Farriers were registered due to poor or non existent hoof care years ago! Now we are going backwards with other organisations? They should be united.

So barefoot become farriers.

Why on earth would people who wish to learn to trim horses feet need to spend four years apprenticed to someone who nails shoes to feet what a waste of time.

 

[cptrayes]

You miss my point, you simply cannot expect the WCF to bend over backwards to accomodate you (again I mean you in a generic sense) and then blame them when they don't. It is up to you to prove to them that you have something to offer them, this could take years and before they will even think about you seriously, you need to get your house in order and sort out your governing body.

I do not miss your point. I do not agree with you.

It is not, in my opinion up to anyone to prove to the WCF that barefoot trimmers have something to offer or for them to "accommodate" trimming organisations. It is up to them to train their apprentices in every aspect of horse hoof care and they do not do that.

They claim that every horse owner is safe in the hands of a farrier for their horse's hoof care and continue to turn out a high proportion of apprentices who have never seen a barefoot hunter/eventer/long distance in their entire four year apprenticeship, don't know a horse with low grade laminitis when it hits them between the eyes and trim sole callous off a barefoot horse.

Far from missing your point, you do not understand mine. Which is that there is a gaping great hole in apprentice farrier training which the WCF are doing nothing whatever to fill, while they continue to take the moral high ground saying that they are the horse hoof experts.

Trimming organisations only exist because the WCF has failed. Once it stops failing, the trimming organisations will disappear and we will all know where we stand with qualified horse hoof care.



ps I think that you will find that your farrier's course was run either by UKNHCP or UKEP. It would be interesting to know and a genuine step forward if it was actually run by the WCF.


pps I did not want to trim my own horses. I was forced to learn to do it by a lack of trimmers 7 years ago and by an experienced and a newly qualified farrier who both insisted that my horses could not do the work I do without shoes on. If the WCF had trained them properly they would still be looking after my horses today. I'm gald they didn't, I've learnt such a lot and saved a fortune

 

[cptrayes]

one thing i do not really understand is how a trimmer can get liability insurance if they supposerly have no recognised professional qualification and registration .
chris

Because insurance actuaries are only interested in risk and the fact is that even a badly trained trimmer is unlikely to do enough damage to result in an insurance claim, now that Strasser is effectively illegal in this country. Their bet is that they will receive more in insurance premiums than they will ever pay out in claims. I think they are right.

 

[criso]

one thing i do not really understand is how a trimmer can get liability insurance if they supposerly have no recognised professional qualification and registration .
chris

Just to point out that someone on here mentioned they are insured by the SAME insurance company that are the subject of this discussion in case anyone thinks NFU are doing this out of a moral concern about welfare and not just trying to have to both ways.