Interested in your view on this PTS debate..

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

So I have two elderly cats who are sisters at home (Pog and Mamf are their names), I believe they are about 20; I can't remember exactly and me and mum (who's cats they really are) have had several conversations about PTS and when to, which become quite heated. I am a better a day to soon person, and have much more exposure to having animals PTS, whereas mum is a lot more on the prolong side of the fence. We know their full history as we have had them since kittens.

They are both arthritic and have visible limps, Pog lost a lot of weight and is now on thyroid meds every day (but has to have monthly blood tests with sedation to be on the meds) and Mamf is a good weight if slightly over. She has a hangy belly as they have always been fat cats, but I can feel her hips etc as you would a normal cat now. They both have Metacam daily, Mamf more so then Pog and they have YuMove supplement. The limps are still visible on these meds, but lessened by them. They both have bloodwork done every 6 months or so and they have excellent results on all functions/levels, the vet was really surprised in cats of this age.

They are outside cats, but choose to sleep all day every day really. Mamf will wait at the bottom of the stairs now until someone comes to pick her up and carry her up them and does struggle, they just about jump on the bed with a small table put next to it as a step up, and can just about jump on the sofa. Mamf is now fed wherever she is lying to avoid her having to use the stairs. Pog is stilly pretty mobile but again, can't jump on the things she once would and is visibly stiff.

If it were me I would have PTS due to the limp, especially as it's still there with pain meds - as to me a limp means the animal is in pain, and they don't know why. Whereas mum said they're just old, that's what happens and that we can continue carrying them up the stairs etc, that they still have a quality of life.

Just interested in what your view on this would be?

 

[Hepsibah]

For me it would depend completely on the animal in question. I had a lovely Cavalier King Charles Spaniel who was obviously getting old and winding down. He was very slow, couldn't do steps in and out of the house, wasn't interested in walks any more and slept much more than before. I was okay with all of that because food still made him happy. That was always his greatest pleasure so as long as he got all perky and happy about dinner and treats I felt he still had meaningful quality of life. I called the vet as soon as he went off his food.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

For me it would depend completely on the animal in question. I had a lovely Cavalier King Charles Spaniel who was obviously getting old and winding down. He was very slow, couldn't do steps in and out of the house, wasn't interested in walks any more and slept much more than before. I was okay with all of that because food still made him happy. That was always his greatest pleasure so as long as he got all perky and happy about dinner and treats I felt he still had meaningful quality of life. I called the vet as soon as he went off his food.

Completely fair - they have always historically been overweight. Pog will follow you round the house yelling for food and then may or may not eat it when you put it down, or will eat a little then wander off. Mamf will eat twice a day but will only come downstairs for it now if she is really hungry. Both will eat but they aren't what they once where, they'll both eat a treat with enthusiasm.

 

[Cortez]

This is timely for me, as my old (16 - 17yr old) cat has just started to limp and look a little old. I will have him put down the minute he starts to struggle; he's had a great life, but I won't keep an animal going that isn't able to enjoy life, and being in pain* is no fun for anyone.

*A limp means it hurts.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

This is timely for me, as my old (16 - 17yr old) cat has just started to limp and look a little old. I will have him put down the minute he starts to struggle; he's had a great life, but I won't keep an animal going that isn't able to enjoy life, and being in pain* is no fun for anyone.

*A limp means it hurts.

I completely agree with this view, and to me a noticeable limp despite Metacam twice a day is too much pain to be living a happy life, nor is not wanting to go up or down the stairs. But I was told I was heartless for even suggesting it..

 

[twiggy2]

If the cat wants to go up the stairs but doesn't I would say the pain is significant, feeding the cat where it is lying is also taking it too far for me.
An animal that feels pain all the time has very little quality of life at best IMO.

 

[skinnydipper]

This is timely for me, as my old (16 - 17yr old) cat has just started to limp and look a little old. I will have him put down the minute he starts to struggle; he's had a great life, but I won't keep an animal going that isn't able to enjoy life, and being in pain* is no fun for anyone.

*A limp means it hurts.

Have you had a look at Solensia? Monthly subcutaneous injection which, if your vet is happy for you to do so, you can administer yourself at home.

 

[Cortez]

Have you had a look at Solensia? Monthly subcutaneous injection which, if your vet is happy for you to do so, you can administer yourself at home.

Oh don't worry, he's a long way from the chop yet!

 

[skinnydipper]

This is timely for me, as my old (16 - 17yr old) cat has just started to limp and look a little old. I will have him put down the minute he starts to struggle; he's had a great life, but I won't keep an animal going that isn't able to enjoy life, and being in pain* is no fun for anyone.

*A limp means it hurts.

If he has started to limp, and you feel he is in pain, Solensia may help. It provides analgesia by reducing nerve growth factor in osteoarthritic joints.

https://www2.zoetis.co.uk/about-zoe...etmab-a-new-therapy-for-feline-osteoarthritis

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

I’m not in the camp of putting an animal down too soon anymore than I’m in the camp of letting an animal suffer unduly. I think it’s very personal and totally down to the individual animal. Cats are not very good at faking being well when they’re not and you’ll soon know when they’ve had enough.

People with arthritis still lead good lives and so can animals up to a point. I’m not sure that it is relevant that your mums cats sleep a lot and I agree old animals as well as people sleep more and do less it doesn’t mean they should die.

I bet most of us live with a greater or lesser degree of pain especially as we get older but we don’t want to end our lives because of it.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I’m not in the camp of putting an animal down too soon anymore than I’m in the camp of letting an animal suffer unduly. I think it’s very personal and totally down to the individual animal. Cats are not very good at faking being well when they’re not and you’ll soon know when they’ve had enough.

People with arthritis still lead good lives and so can animals up to a point. I’m not sure that it is relevant that your mums cats sleep a lot and I agree old animals as well as people sleep more and do less it doesn’t mean they should die.

I bet most of us live with a greater or lesser degree of pain especially as we get older but we don’t want to end our lives because of it.

The relevance of them sleeping a lot is me trying to say that they have never been cats that would roam for miles so they aren't missing out on that side of their quality of life. I should have said 'have always chosen to sleep all day everyday'. I completely agree with you that I wouldn't rush to PTS a stiff elderly animal, but I am only considering it here as they are noticably lame despite being on the maximum amount of painkillers they can be, plus they will wait at the bottom of the stairs to be carried up, to me that says they aren't leading good lives, but long ones for the sake of it - and that is coming from someone who lives with arthritic hip pain.

I completely agree that it's super subjective, but I guess I am comparing it to a horse. If I had a horse that was 3-4/10ths lame bilaterally in front and stiff behinf, despite being on the maximum dose of bute, I would be looking at PTS.

ETA: I guess I just wanted to sound check on here as I want to just do the right thing by them, I have only ever had horses & dogs PTS and I know cats are very different animals of course. We haven't ever lost cats to old age before, as with our previous two, one was a victim of the road and another was shot by some yob. They have been my companions for 20+ years, I am desperately sad at the idea of losing them, even if my post may sound as though I am being emotionless about it.

 

[Cortez]

It doesn't sound that way at all. You are thinking about their feelings above your own.

 

[Cortez]

Double posted.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

The relevance of them sleeping a lot is me trying to say that they have never been cats that would roam for miles so they aren't missing out on that side of their quality of life. I should have said 'have always chosen to sleep all day everyday'. I completely agree with you that I wouldn't rush to PTS a stiff elderly animal, but I am only considering it here as they are noticably lame despite being on the maximum amount of painkillers they can be, plus they will wait at the bottom of the stairs to be carried up, to me that says they aren't leading good lives, but long ones for the sake of it - and that is coming from someone who lives with arthritic hip pain.

I completely agree that it's super subjective, but I guess I am comparing it to a horse. If I had a horse that was 3-4/10ths lame bilaterally in front and stiff behinf, despite being on the maximum dose of bute, I would be looking at PTS.

ETA: I guess I just wanted to sound check on here as I want to just do the right thing by them, I have only ever had horses & dogs PTS and I know cats are very different animals of course. We haven't ever lost cats to old age before, as with our previous two, one was a victim of the road and another was shot by some yob. They have been my companions for 20+ years, I am desperately sad at the idea of losing them, even if my post may sound as though I am being emotionless about it.

I don’t think you’re emotionless nor do I think it’s wrong to ask yourself and others these questions to help you get your thoughts straight. You’ll always get opinions that don’t necessarily chime exactly with yours which I guess is the purpose of forums and discussion to see other perspectives that may sometimes change what we think or confirm our thoughts.

 

[SOS]

I don’t think you can compare human and animal pain…
-They are a lot tougher than us and don’t like to show pain, so if they are making themselves vulnerable it’s normally quite bad.
-They cannot complain/comment on pain like us, so you are picking up on their physical signs of pain which only show when it gets a bit more severe.
-They cannot choose whether to live or die, just endure.
-They dont have the emotional connection to life that we do. A cat does not hope it makes it until next Christmas so it sees Aunty Sally again.
-A cat wants to run and jump and be able to be safe (cat instincts tell them to stay up high and be nimble). It places a degree of stress on them knowing they can’t do that. A human cannot relate to this.

Amongst many other reasons.

I would ask your mum what she sees as the point where intervention is needed. Animals rarely pass away peacefully in their sleep. More often than not they are rushed down to the vets in a state of collapse or flatness as their bodies have truly given up. Even a heart attack during the night is hardly a peaceful death. Maybe your mum will then see that a decision has to be made at some point.

 

[Gloi]

I left my first cat too long when she was old and she died in the basket at the vets while we were waiting to have her pts. I had my elderly cat pts this summer when she started limping and losing weight. I could have kept her alive longer but it would have been for my benefit rather than hers. I will do the same if I am in that position again.
.

 

[twiggy2]

I’m not in the camp of putting an animal down too soon anymore than I’m in the camp of letting an animal suffer unduly. I think it’s very personal and totally down to the individual animal. Cats are not very good at faking being well when they’re not and you’ll soon know when they’ve had enough.

People with arthritis still lead good lives and so can animals up to a point. I’m not sure that it is relevant that your mums cats sleep a lot and I agree old animals as well as people sleep more and do less it doesn’t mean they should die.

I bet most of us live with a greater or lesser degree of pain especially as we get older but we don’t want to end our lives because of it.

After seeing cats with horrendous injuries still managing and people around them not realising how severe things are I disagree cats can be masters at disguising pain and illness.
People living with pain can decide to take extra painkillers, put heat rubs in, take a hot bath etcetera etcetera a cat can't make those choices and take those actions.
I wouls also say that many people do want to end their lives because they are enduring pain (even with the a ility to take extra drugs to try and control the pain) many don't because they either can't or because of the hurt it will cause those left behind.
Animals do not know it is their last day and a trip to the vet for a cat that has monthly blood test under sedation would be a normal monthly visit.
I agree OP that you will get many different views, ultimately it sounds like you and your mum need to have some sit down chats about what to expect and when you can agree the time will be and try and come to a middle ground if you can.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I would ask your mum what she sees as the point where intervention is needed. Animals rarely pass away peacefully in their sleep. More often than not they are rushed down to the vets in a state of collapse or flatness as their bodies have truly given up. Even a heart attack during the night is hardly a peaceful death. Maybe your mum will then see that a decision has to be made at some point.

I have tried to ask her this and she doesn't really have an answer, she just goes back to the fact that they have quality of life at the moment; she gets very emotional about it so it's difficult to have a rational conversation with her about it. I honestly think she's waiting for them to either have end stage kidney failure, or to stop eating or to physically collapse for her to make the decision, whereas imo that's way too late.

I disagree with a lot of the work that Noel Fitzpatrick does and I disagree with animals in wheelchairs, not to mention having a pragmatic view towards the life span of farm animals for example - whereas she is very prolong life at all costs to a point, so I think she sees me as a bit callous and heartless re: PTS decisions, so me addressing it at all gets her on the defence.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

I don’t think you can compare human and animal pain…
-They are a lot tougher than us and don’t like to show pain, so if they are making themselves vulnerable it’s normally quite bad.
-They cannot complain/comment on pain like us, so you are picking up on their physical signs of pain which only show when it gets a bit more severe.
-They cannot choose whether to live or die, just endure.
-They dont have the emotional connection to life that we do. A cat does not hope it makes it until next Christmas so it sees Aunty Sally again.
-A cat wants to run and jump and be able to be safe (cat instincts tell them to stay up high and be nimble). It places a degree of stress on them knowing they can’t do that. A human cannot relate to this.

Amongst many other reasons.

I would ask your mum what she sees as the point where intervention is needed. Animals rarely pass away peacefully in their sleep. More often than not they are rushed down to the vets in a state of collapse or flatness as their bodies have truly given up. Even a heart attack during the night is hardly a peaceful death. Maybe your mum will then see that a decision has to be made at some point.

I totally disagree with you on this. Pain is pain. IME you can tell if an animal is generally happy or content when you’ve looked after it all it’s life and that’s what I always base my decision on not some imaginary thought process the animal may or may not be going through based on human thought processes…

I don’t really believe animals hide pain any more than humans do especially predators. Humans endure way more pain than animals ever have to IMO because we can’t choose euthanasia and most people’s instinct is to survive so taking ones own life is not easily achievable.

I’ll make it clear none of my animals have ever been left to suffer - none!

 

[SOS]

I have tried to ask her this and she doesn't really have an answer, she just goes back to the fact that they have quality of life at the moment; she gets very emotional about it so it's difficult to have a rational conversation with her about it. I honestly think she's waiting for them to either have end stage kidney failure, or to stop eating or to physically collapse for her to make the decision, whereas imo that's way too late.

I disagree with a lot of the work that Noel Fitzpatrick does and I disagree with animals in wheelchairs, not to mention having a pragmatic view towards the life span of farm animals for example - whereas she is very prolong life at all costs to a point, so I think she sees me as a bit callous and heartless re: PTS decisions, so me addressing it at all gets her on the defence.

I completely sympathise as I have the same issue with my mum. As you probably know I work within veterinary and I disagree too with pro life at any cost.

Have you considered a quality of life form with her? Doing them regularly can help people realise their pets QOL is declining.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

IME you can tell if an animal is generally happy or content when you’ve looked after it all it’s life

I think this is part of the difficulty here.. Mum justifies that they are happy because they sleep peacefully all day, they can get up/down the stairs if they absolutely need to, and they snuggle up with each other to sleep or have some fuss and are happy doing so, and I understand her point. But when the traditionally silent cat is meowing for me to pick her up to go to bed, and limping away across the kitchen, or sat looking outside through the door rather then use the cat flap more than is necessary (it has a step) I question how happy they really are.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

After seeing cats with horrendous injuries still managing and people around them not realising how severe things are I disagree cats can be masters at disguising pain and illness.
People living with pain can decide to take extra painkillers, put heat rubs in, take a hot bath etcetera etcetera a cat can't make those choices and take those actions.
I wouls also say that many people do want to end their lives because they are enduring pain (even with the a ility to take extra drugs to try and control the pain) many don't because they either can't or because of the hurt it will cause those left behind.
Animals do not know it is their last day and a trip to the vet for a cat that has monthly blood test under sedation would be a normal monthly visit.
I agree OP that you will get many different views, ultimately it sounds like you and your mum need to have some sit down chats about what to expect and when you can agree the time will be and try and come to a middle ground if you can.

These are elderly cats though not with severe injuries. Mine always go very quiet and hide or don’t move. They don’t go around normal sleeping, eating and bimbling around when they’re poorly or in severe or significant pain.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Have you considered a quality of life form with her? Doing them regularly can help people realise their pets QOL is declining.

I didn't realise this is a thing, I'll have a google - thank you

 

[Cortez]

I totally disagree with you on this. Pain is pain. IME you can tell if an animal is generally happy or content when you’ve looked after it all it’s life and that’s what I always base my decision on not some imaginary thought process the animal may or may not be going through based on human thought processes…

I don’t really believe animals hide pain any more than humans do especially predators. Humans endure way more pain than animals ever have to IMO because we can’t choose euthanasia and most people’s instinct is to survive so taking ones own life is not easily achievable.

I’ll make it clear none of my animals have ever been left to suffer - none!

Hmm, no, don't agree. Having seen a horse apparently happily grazing whilst standing on it's own intestines after having disembowelled itself on a fence post, I'd say that animals are masters at masking pain. I passionately believe that it's better to be a day/week too early than a microsecond too late.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

I think this is part of the difficulty here.. Mum justifies that they are happy because they sleep peacefully all day, they can get up/down the stairs if they absolutely need to, and they snuggle up with each other to sleep or have some fuss and are happy doing so, and I understand her point. But when the traditionally silent cat is meowing for me to pick her up to go to bed, and limping away across the kitchen, or sat looking outside through the door rather then use the cat flap more than is necessary (it has a step) I question how happy they really are.

It’s difficult as you are in the actual situation and some people do need help seeing the wood for the trees. It doesn’t sound as if the cats are at crisis point and hopefully SOS suggestion re the QOL questionnaire might be a good place to help your mum come to the right decision. I do have a friend who is afraid if death and therefore when her horse could hardly walk had to be persuaded to let him go even though it was obvious to everyone else it was time.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

Hmm, no, don't agree. Having seen a horse apparently happily grazing whilst standing on it's own intestines after having disembowelled itself on a fence post, I'd say that animals are masters at masking pain. I passionately believe that it's better to be a day/week too early than a microsecond too late.

Obviously it was too late for that horse although he didn’t seem to be suffering …maybe he wasn’t? No nerve endings in bowels?
Perhaps you should have had him shot the week before in case he disembowelled himself the following week?

 

[Cortez]

Obviously it was too late for that horse although he didn’t seem to be suffering …maybe he wasn’t? No nerve endings in bowels?
Perhaps you should have had him shot the week before in case he disembowelled himself the following week?

Wasn't mine, and you know that's a snarky and unnecessary comment.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

Wasn't mine, and you know that's a snarky and unnecessary comment.

Well don’t use such an irrelevant example then.

 

[SOS]

I totally disagree with you on this. Pain is pain. IME you can tell if an animal is generally happy or content when you’ve looked after it all it’s life and that’s what I always base my decision on not some imaginary thought process the animal may or may not be going through based on human thought processes…

I don’t really believe animals hide pain any more than humans do especially predators. Humans endure way more pain than animals ever have to IMO because we can’t choose euthanasia and most people’s instinct is to survive so taking ones own life is not easily achievable.

I’ll make it clear none of my animals have ever been left to suffer - none!

IME it’s been the complete opposite. Have you seen wildlife programmes where the broken leg zebra still desperately tries to act normal and keep up with the herd so it’s not preyed on for being weak? A human would not do that, we don’t need too. Unless we are in a zombie movie or similar.

I have seen many animals in pain yet hiding it. Pelvis smashed to smithereens in cats still running around, dogs with their organs in their chest from a diaphragmatic hernia still wagging their tail and wanting to say hello, this doesn’t mean they don’t feel it, it means they are very good at hiding it. Hell, a few years ago I had a tooth root infection that rendered me unable to eat, talk or sleep despite max level cocodamol. Yet in practice almost everyday we would do dental on animals whose teeth fall out when we brush them. Hence why many years of research has gone into proving animals do feel pain to a great extent as once upon a time people believed they just didn’t.

We are so lucky that our veterinary and scientific research supports that animals can feel pain and therefore prolonged suffering is wrong. Yet pet owners still see growing old and lame and in pain as normal. (Unlike OP who sought ways to manage pain of their pet and is considered now it’s unmanaged whether or not QOL is still there).

I will always stand by that animals do feel pain, hide pain and it can never be underestimated. We must do all we can to keep them pain free including euthanasia.

 

[Cortez]

Well don’t use such an irrelevant example then.

How is that not relevant? There are countless similar examples, would you like to review them? The point has been eloquently put by several other people and there is scientific research on the subject.