Interested in your view on this PTS debate..

[I'm Dun]

It doesn’t sound as if the cats are at crisis point

Surely the whole point is to avoid crisis point though?

 

[ycbm]

I totally disagree with you on this. Pain is pain. IME you can tell if an animal is generally happy or content when you’ve looked after it all it’s life and that’s what I always base my decision on not some imaginary thought process the animal may or may not be going through based on human thought processes…

I don’t really believe animals hide pain any more than humans do especially predators. Humans endure way more pain than animals ever have to IMO because we can’t choose euthanasia and most people’s instinct is to survive so taking ones own life is not easily achievable.

I’ll make it clear none of my animals have ever been left to suffer - none!

I believe that there are now studies which show that cats can have severe arthritis before they start to limp, and that once a cat is limping it is in real pain.
.

 

[tda]

If the cat wants to go up the stairs but doesn't I would say the pain is significant, feeding the cat where it is lying is also taking it too far for me.
An animal that feels pain all the time has very little quality of life at best IMO.

These are my thoughts too

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Surely the whole point is to avoid crisis point though?

I’m not saying she should wait until crisis point just that an immediate decision does not need to be made and she has time to go through the QOL with her mother so hopefully can avoid a crisis. However it’s not actually her decision nor anybody else’s.

 

[ycbm]

These are elderly cats though not with severe injuries. Mine always go very quiet and hide or don’t move. They don’t go around normal sleeping, eating and bimbling around when they’re poorly or in severe or significant pain.

But they do.

I noticed that my last ginger tom was breathing very quickly and shallowly.i took him to the vet expecting some antibiotics for a chest infection. The vet said that the breathing was because of congestive heart failure and that he must be put to sleep then and there, but that she could not guarantee that he would not drop dead before the procedure could be got through.

That cat cannot possibly have been in no discomfort, but his behaviour never changed.

 

[twiggy2]

These are elderly cats though not with severe injuries. Mine always go very quiet and hide or don’t move. They don’t go around normal sleeping, eating and bimbling around when they’re poorly or in severe or significant pain.

What's the difference, pain is pain? also often pets start sleeping a lot and a vet will prescribed painkillers and the animals become more active, sleeping all the time is not an automatic part of getting old, often the sleeping is a sign of pain or illness.
Eating where you sleep, not being able to climb stairs etc etc are not going around normally for these cats, old age can creep in I've a few years and by the time lots of symptoms are there the degree of suffering can be significant.

 

[honetpot]

I took a young cat to the vet, about ten months old, because IMO its just wasn't right, not behaving as it should, and there must be something really wrong with it, to PTS. The vet wanted a X-ray, so OK, it's got a massive chest tumour, so it was PTS. Was it in any pain, I have no idea, but once an animal is not able to carry out its normal activities of living, get away from danger and avoid harm, it's time for it to go. I have done the holding on, until it's slept its self to death, and I am ashamed of myself. Yes it didn't appear in pain, but it must have felt terrible, and was just existing.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I believe that there are now studies which show that cats can have severe arthritis before they start to limp, and that once a cat is limping it is in real pain.
.

That’s interesting. Does anyone know how pain can be measured in cats scientifically speaking? I get that animals can hide pain just as we can going around our daily business but if the animal isn’t showing signs of pain how do they know the animal is in pain or how significant it is to the animal?

My pain threshold I think is a lot higher than some peoples but obviously I can say what level of pain I’m feeling depending on the stimulus and that can be compared to other peoples whereas a cat can only show it through its behaviour.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

That’s interesting. Does anyone know how pain can be measured in cats scientifically speaking? I get that animals can hide pain just as we can going around our daily business but if the animal isn’t showing signs of pain how do they know the animal is in pain or how significant it is to the animal?

My pain threshold I think is a lot higher than some peoples but obviously I can say what level of pain I’m feeling depending on the stimulus and that can be compared to other peoples whereas a cat can only show it through its behaviour.

Any animal which is limping must be in pain, I don't see how that can be up for debate.

 

[ycbm]

That’s interesting. Does anyone know how pain can be measured in cats scientifically speaking? I get that animals can hide pain just as we can going around our daily business but if the animal isn’t showing signs of pain how do they know the animal is in pain or how significant it is to the animal?

My pain threshold I think is a lot higher than some peoples but obviously I can say what level of pain I’m feeling depending on the stimulus and that can be compared to other peoples whereas a cat can only show it through its behaviour.

What this comes down to is that you would be prepared to risk that your animal is in pain but hiding it, and keep it alive, whereas I would rather PTS my animals while they are experiencing little or even no pain, so that they never have to.

We come from different ends on this.
.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Any animal which is limping must be in pain, I don't see how that can be up for debate.

No one has said that limping doesn’t mean there isn’t some pain it’s more of a question as to whether that pain is severe enough or debilitating enough to make the QOL of an animal unacceptable. People have differing views on what that might be and only the OP and her mum can decide that given the cat(s) in front of them. Maybe if they were mine I’d make that decision now or may have already made it before now or maybe I’d think that they’re still enjoying their comfy life. I just don’t know.

 

[[153312]]

I completely agree with this view, and to me a noticeable limp despite Metacam twice a day is too much pain to be living a happy life, nor is not wanting to go up or down the stairs. But I was told I was heartless for even suggesting it..

Metacam twice a day and still limping is too much for me too personally, especially if it's stopping them coming for food :/

 

[Sussexbythesea]

What this comes down to is that you would be prepared to risk that your animal is in pain but hiding it, and keep it alive, whereas I would rather PTS my animals while they are experiencing little or even no pain, so that they never have to.

We come from different ends on this.
.

If you are going to insult me I’d say that I have deep empathy with my animals that you perhaps lack I can spot a mile off if anything is amiss. I woke up suddenly at 3.30 am and looked for my kitten the other day as he didn’t come immediately and I found he was poorly probably due to his vaccination although it was 36 hours ago. I slept with him in the spare room for the remaining few hours of the night.

All of my animals have been elected to be pts when ready none have died in their sleep.

 

[Cortez]

If you are going to insult me I’d say that I have deep empathy with my animals that you perhaps lack I can spot a mile off if anything is amiss. I woke up suddenly at 3.30 am and looked for my kitten the other day as he didn’t come immediately and I found he was poorly probably due to his vaccination although it was 36 hours ago. I slept with him in the spare room for the remaining few hours of the night.

All of my animals have been elected to be pts when ready none have died in their sleep.

The only insulting going on is from your corner. Not sure why you're prepared to do that, but there is no need to be rude, we are all interested in alternate points of view.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

The only insulting going on is from your corner. Not sure why you're prepared to do that, but there is no need to be rude, we are all interested in alternate points of view.

I think suggesting that I’m prepared to let my animals suffer is an insult, however, if I read too much into YCBM’s comment or misunderstood then I apologise.

I’m not some raving anti-pts person but I’m not so black and white about it either.

 

[ycbm]

If you are going to insult me I’d say that I have deep empathy with my animals that you perhaps lack..

I have not insulted you, I have stated the facts. You asked how to obtain a definitive answer as to whether an animal is in pain and there isn't a way to do that. Therefore, you are prepared to risk that your animal actually is in pain but not showing it, however slim you perceive that risk to be it is not zero. You are in common with most people on that, and you are content that you are making the right decision based on the quality of life as you judge it and you feel fully able to judge whether your animal is in pain. I don't feel that confidence, myself, from my own direct experience of managing animals.

Perhaps you should just be content with how you choose to manage things and stop judging people who put their animals to sleep earlier than you do out of fear that they will leave it too late.
.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I have not insulted you, I have stated the facts. You asked for a definitive answer to whether an animal is in pain and there isn't one. Therefore, you are prepared to risk that your animal actually is in pain but not showing it. You are in common with most people on that, and you are content that you are making the right decision based on the quality of life as you judge it and you feel fully able to judge whether your animal is in pain. I don't feel that confidence, myself.

Perhaps you should just be content with how you choose to manage things and stop judging people who put their animals to sleep earlier than you do out of fear that they will leave it too late.
.

I don’t think I’m judging anymore than anyone else on this thread though? It’s all just personal opinions isn’t it? The OP asked for perspectives I have mine and others gave there’s and a few (lots) told me I was wrong and I gave my view back. I absolutely think pts is a personal decision and don’t judge but support friends making that hard decision and if you really knew me you’d know that.

 

[Cortez]

I think suggesting that I’m prepared to let my animals suffer is an insult, however, if I read too much into YCBM’s comment or misunderstood then I apologise.

I’m not some raving anti-pts person but I’m not so black and white about it either.

It's never black and white, and it's always heartbreaking.

 

[Hepsibah]

What this comes down to is that you would be prepared to risk that your animal is in pain but hiding it, and keep it alive, whereas I would rather PTS my animals while they are experiencing little or even no pain, so that they never have to.

We come from different ends on this.
.

That sounds almost as though you might consider pts at birth to avoid any possible pain ever!
I do generally agree with you though. My cat came home one day with a dead tail, obviously broken. Got her to the vet to amputate it but once she was put under and examined it became clear it was broken further up and she was not going to be able to defecate for herself again. I could have kept her going but it wasn’t going to be a pleasant life for her.

 

[ycbm]

That sounds almost as though you might consider pts at birth to avoid any possible pain ever!

I assumed we were starting the discussion from a point where the animal was not unlikely to be in pain (from age, accident or illness), but there are plenty of animals who would be better off if they had never been born.
.

 

[Puzzled]

I’m not in the camp of putting an animal down too soon anymore than I’m in the camp of letting an animal suffer unduly. I think it’s very personal and totally down to the individual animal. Cats are not very good at faking being well when they’re not and you’ll soon know when they’ve had enough.

People with arthritis still lead good lives and so can animals up to a point. I’m not sure that it is relevant that your mums cats sleep a lot and I agree old animals as well as people sleep more and do less it doesn’t mean they should die.

I bet most of us live with a greater or lesser degree of pain especially as we get older but we don’t want to end our lives because of it.

Completely agree with the above…there are plenty of older people who may be a bit sore/arthritic but still have a quality of life. In my experience once cats start loosing their appetite you probably need to make a decision.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I'm rather in the "better a day too soon" camp too..........

My thoughts in this particular situation are centred around the whole subject of "pain" and the issue of "pain" - as evidenced by the limp still being there even though the animal is on presumably the max pain-relief?? For me, this is the real crux of the issue and for me that would be the same as a horse evidencing lameness in spite of being on say 2X Bute a day and that would indicate that pain is clearly evident even after the best attempts have been made to manage it. In fact this is exactly where my mare was back in the summer - and it was because of this (and other issues) we made the decision to PTS.

You have the problem in that mum isn't able to stand back and see things "logically" as she's obviously very fond of both cats.

IF making the decision to PTS......... then my action would be to PTS BOTH of the cats together, at the same time. They've been together all their lives and one will grieve without the other. We did this with our two old veteran horses a few years back and whilst it was a real toughie it was actually a damn good deed we did for both of them. Both were aged, both had mobility difficulties which medication was yes alleviating, but over time was losing its effectiveness to deal with the pain/discomfort, and it was considered by the vet and ourselves that the kindest thing to do was put both down together as they were pairbonded and it wouldn't have been kind to have left one without the other.

Sorry I cannot be more optimistic, but this is what I'd do.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Thank you all for the replies, it's definitely helped me to know I am not over reacting. I will broach it again soon and bring a QOL form that was mentioned up thread.

IF making the decision to PTS......... then my action would be to PTS BOTH of the cats together, at the same time.

Yes, this would be the case.

 

[poiuytrewq]

I can sympathise op.
my partner and I have this disagreement. He seems to have absolutely no qualms with leaving it til the bitter end and makes me feel terrible and doubt myself for ever suggesting otherwise.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I am in the 'better too soon.........' camp too but tbh, if the cats belong to youyr mum, the decision has to be hers. If you don't live with the cats all the time, you will see the deterioration which hasn't noticed when you do see them.The QOL assessment should be of help to you (and to the cats).