Interesting backing debate inspired by another thread...

Queenbee

Queenbee

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Now, missy mew, posted a thread, in which she had a dummy lying order the back of a youngster. At some point in the thread, springfeather asked, was this dummy tied down. Op's answer was no. Ops reason was that she would rather the horse be used to things falling off her back as people are want to do (fair point). However, it got me to thinking, if my horse, freaked at having something on its back (when being backed) and bolted/rodeoed or reared... I'd rather it learnt that the thing on its back was not going to be unseated by this, I would hope that learning this would stop any of these reactions becoming habits or evasive tactics as could happen if it learnt the 'weight' would leave its back if it did any of these responses. However, I also see the value of it not flipping its lid when its rider/weight, hits the deck.

Personally, if I was using a dummy, I'd rather go with option one, tying it down than option two.. Not tying it, as for me, the far more valueable lesson is though shalt not ditch your rider...

What would you go for, what's more valuable to you and why?
 
is it like a hard plastic dummy??? if so id want it tied down otherwise ouch!!!!!...... if it was soft and floppy id want the option of both!

however... would a large fabric sack not do the same??? teach it to not learn it can get 'rider' off....but also 'flying rider' (as well all do :/) doesnt matter and theres no need to go mad........
 
ok....well i dont really see how that imitates a rider...... its not very 'life like' with floppy limbs and movement

i thought it may be something more like this! http://www.ardall.com/ardallsr1- i can actually see a point in this one as i think it would really teach a horse common to bucking....or who has been poorly backed before and being restarted... that there is no way the weight is coming off...but its safe and realistic!
 
Why do people use dummies? I suppose I could see the point if it were a horse that had already been broken and had learnt to buck/rear till rider fell off but for a normal breaking in would it not be better to put an actual person on board?

If I were using a dummy I think I'd have it tied down for the main part of breaking in and then possibly use it not tied down if I wanted to gauge the reaction to a rider coming off.
 
I wouldnt use a dummy i cant see the point of it really!! They arent going to be the same weight as a rider, and dont move the same!
 
I always prefer to not let them know I'm detachable, so I would go for tied :p

Never used a dummy, so hadn't given it any thought, I would just hop on.
 
I've never used a dummy either. The only dummies who back my horses are me and my daughter :biggrin3:

No way, having backed an awful lot of youngsters would I ever have anything on it that is not stable and connected. Young horses can get frights and if you have that happen it can set you back weeks.
 
See, this is my view, and moreover, if you did use a dummy and it was unattached and it learnt it could throw it off... Well that's just inviting trouble :(
 
Well I don't use dummies, but if I were to use one I would use it in the same way as any other training technique with a youngster - i.e. with a very specific training goal/outcome in mind.

It strikes me that this untied dummy scenario is not particularly well designed from that respect - either you want to teach the horse to accept having something vaguely human shaped on top of it, or you want to teach it to stand still when something vaguely human shaped falls off its back. Trying to teach the two at once I should think would be confusing and/or overwhelming for most young horses.
 
I would think tied down makes more sense. I don't really see a need for it but can see how a really well secured one might be helpful for a horse who knows how to get a person off through experience. I assume it would be held on by people on the ground but surely any type of misbehaviour would get an unsecured dummy off like bucks, rears, small hops, spooks, sharp turns, sudden stops or trotting unexpectedly... It would teach the horse that all of these things make the weight go away!
 
The whole point of backing is taking things slow and and working up to having someone sat on a horse, not sticking a dummy on its back and then waiting for it to stop bucking because it cant get it off!!
 
I agree totaly,if you need to do this and worry about tied on or not then you have clearly missed all the signals the horse has been giving.It smacks of the rodeo riding of unbroken horses till they give up.
 
Fii said:
The whole point of backing is taking things slow and and working up to having someone sat on a horse, not sticking a dummy on its back and then waiting for it to stop bucking because it cant get it off!!
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LOL This!! Horses are not stupid and they certainly know that a dummy is not a human¬!!! :rollseyes:
 
I can't imagine why anyone would use a dummy. If it's not secure it'll fall off and teach the horse how to get the weight off it's back. If it is secure and the horse panics it'll run off bucking and probably flatten whoever is trying to hold it... Yeah it could certainly work, in the same way sacking out does. Both practices belong in the old west.
Do the IH lot promote this? Is this their idea of humane training?
 
Pass on using a dummy to back a horse - and if there is any bucking at the stage, I think you are doing it wrong.

Someone I know who starts horses for a living, uses a controlled "dismount" once the horses are going confidently to teach them about riders coming off.
 
NZJenny said:
Pass on using a dummy to back a horse - and if there is any bucking at the stage, I think you are doing it wrong.

Someone I know who starts horses for a living, uses a controlled "dismount" once the horses are going confidently to teach them about riders coming off.
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I have always done 'pretend falling off' with my youngsters, ending up on my back under their neck and offering them a bit of carrot!! So far none have been fazed by my antics!! Even when it is for real!! But then I spend a LOT of time leaning over them while standing on a mounting block.....jumping up and down beside them.....hopping up in one stirrup twisting to face forward(very secure position this!) and then hopping down again, ditto rubbing rump with free leg.....so when leg finally goes over and I sit down it is nothing....baby steps!!
 
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I wouldn't be in favour of using a dummy really, but I I felt the need at some point... I'd make sure the horse in question was thoroughly used to said dummy all around it's legs etc before putting it on top and having the horse move. I suppose you could call it "sacking out", it would involve as much approach and retreat as needed. So, if the dummy did slide off when the horse is in motion, it wouldn't be an issue.
I would never tie the dummy on the horse because, if something unexpected happened, or the horse really objected violently, it could be difficult to remove it. And that could lead to flooding.
 
I know IH use a dummy to imitate someone falling off and being dragged, in order to teach a horse not to freak with something being dragged by its legs, especially for a child's pony.

I'm not planning on using a dummy to back but I will be fake falling off and teaching her to stop and will look into something that she can 'pull' along the ground.

I think with a real rider and their weight a horse isn't going to be able to throw in the real big rears and bucks than it might with a dummy and we are more likely to ride through it and evade these tactics, although slowly does it and it shouldn't come down to that anyway if you are reading the cues and taking it slow enough. I think saddle weights would be better if you wanted to go down this route with lots of time spent up above the horse on both sides. If the horse freaked with the dummy and it went flopping down under the horse that's an awful lot of issues to go back and sort out!
 
Tied down.

We used a dummy on Titchy because no one else is small enough and he was getting my daughter off. The dummy was bigger than her and weighed about the same. Using the dummy and a few other things helped us get him over the issue. Ideal for breaking kids ponies or for self preservation on problem ones. But I agree, I would not want it to fall off. This one was secured in 6 places and could not tip backwards or forwards. The saddle did on occasion slip sideways because he is so small, but as one of the reasons for him getting my daughter off was her losing her balance, that worked quite well as even at right angles to the ground the dummy didn't fall off. We also did some training where as the dummy was "falling" he had to stand still while I ran up to "save" her.
 
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Queenbee said:
See, this is my view, and moreover, if you did use a dummy and it was unattached and it learnt it could throw it off... Well that's just inviting trouble :(
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I'd rather something that came off if the youngster scared itself and was panicking- if the thing on top stayed on, but provided no comfort or help, I can't see it ending well.
 
Lolo said:
I'd rather something that came off if the youngster scared itself and was panicking- if the thing on top stayed on, but provided no comfort or help, I can't see it ending well.
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That's why I don't really see that value in using a dummy to back a horse (other than in situations that FfionWinnie describes). I've seen dummies used very successfully to teach a horse to stand when a rider falls, but that's with horses that are already established under saddle and the dummy is generally still attached to the saddle in some way using a rope so that the handler can drop the dummy off at the right moment.

I cannot see how having a dummy that could fall off randomly at the worst possible time could serve any training purpose whatsoever.
 
I like FfionWinnie's approach. I am keen on Intelligent Horsemanship and have seen them use the Ardall dummy (which is firmly attached) as a prelude to backing. I have also seen a demo on the use of the dummy to 'fall off' in a controlled manner as people describe, to get the horse used to being calm and not reacting if one does fall off. All seems very sensible to me. I guess the dummy is a bit OTT in most situations for the backing part, but useful in some cases and good for the 'falling off' part. Also FW love the point about pony standing while mum rushes up to save daughter!
 
I wouldn't use one for "normal" backing on a more or less normal horse, but I know of someone who successfully used one to fix a horse who panic bolted.
 
FfionWinnie said:
* We also did some training where as the dummy was "falling" he had to stand still while I ran up to "save" her.
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Aww! That seems like a good use for a dummy, I hadn't really thought about using them for tiny ponies but it makes sense. It's a bit different control wise anyway, two people handling a small pony have pretty good control.
 
interesting - until now i have not heard of anyone teaching their horses to 'accept' a falling rider (aside from stunt riding, vaulting, or horses used in filming where i have known this was done) but not for an ordinary riding horse.

but i can see some use to it as it does terrify horses sometimes if you fall. I don't think anyone has ever fallen of one of my horses (unless anyone did backing him) but certainly between 6 and 19 no one has fallen off him. I wonder if he would freak out if someone did!?

our TB ex racer who is quite lively once jumped my husband off clearing a fence more than he had too and they didn't land together but the horse actually halted right after the fence and practically lowered my husband to the floor gently - useful as he is a good 17.2hh. i wonder now if someone at sometime taught him that?
 
Blythe Spirit said:
the horse actually halted right after the fence and practically lowered my husband to the floor gently - useful as he is a good 17.2hh. i wonder now if someone at sometime taught him that?
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Possibly, but maybe not, when I was breaking my first horse in, he was throwing some moves and threw me out of the saddle and up his neck. He immediately threw his neck up and stopped moving, shoving me back into the saddle. He was just a nice kind horse that didn't really want to get me off, nothing he'd been trained to do.
He was the same with novice riders when he was older, if they were coming off he would do his best to get back underneath them.
 
The only time I've had cause to use a dummy was when I was breaking a nervous little cob, that had been really messed up by a silly little girl attempting to break him in. God only knows what she did to him! He went absolutely nuts at the feeling of any weight in the saddle when he moved (was fine stood still with someone leaning over).
So I filled some old trousers with sand, which weighed quite a bit actually. Secured them on the saddle, tied them on, he had a bloody good bronc for a while and realised actually it stayed on and wasn't too scary.

He was fine after that, but still very jumpy. Certainly would have set him back even further if it came off!
 
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