Introducing Lindeza (lin-day-za)

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I have been thinking I should explain for all the people saying to themselves 'why on earth has she got her hands so high?'

We were leg yielding to the left when a tiny pony wandered into view directly in front of her about 30 meters away, and she fixed her eyes on him and stopped going sideways. I raised my hands to follow her mouth as she raised her head, and I'm neck reining her to the left to make her respond to my request in spite of the fascinating pony. I don't usually ride round with my hands up there!
 
YCBM, nowt wrong with where your hands are in that moment, nor with where your leg and body are either.

A lot wrong with all the leaning forwards, round shouldered, hands below the broken line posture that so many people show.....and horses with their noses and necks below the level of the withers, dragging around on the forehand. Down with that sort of thing, etc.
 
I figured there was reasoning behind your technique!

She's a lovely gal!

I recently ordered a more Spanish style/working equitation saddle (could've probably done this in my regular dressage saddle butttt..) because I want to dip my toe in a few things...whenever my horse is able to with his hoof debacle. Have you considered some working equitation? I find it quite fun and different.
 
ycbm said:
Tell me more CC, where do you find out about it/ train/ compete?
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Not sure about in the UK, are you on Facebook? I've come across a few UK Spanish horse and UK Working Equitation groups on there that might be useful.

I honestly just did some Google searches, watched a lot of videos on YouTube, and just talked to some people in my area. I did ask a local facebook horse group too and they were able to point me toward a trainer. I am also close to Stefan Schneider and hope to clinic with him at some point in 2021 if possible (again, hoof). Maybe Cortez knows a bit more?

We don't have many competitions in my area, so I'd have to go futher away I think. But even by doing some basic internet searches I was able to put a few exercises together in the beginning on my own.
 
ycbm said:
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I have been thinking I should explain for all the people saying to themselves 'why on earth has she got her hands so high?'

We were leg yielding to the left when a tiny pony wandered into view directly in front of her about 30 meters away, and she fixed her eyes on him and stopped going sideways. I raised my hands to follow her mouth as she raised her head, and I'm neck reining her to the left to make her respond to my request in spite of the fascinating pony. I don't usually ride round with my hands up there!
Click to expand...

According to ' My Big Book of Spanish Riding ' - (" El Spookas . Chapter 7 " ) If your horse takes the Pisto and does a Tortillas you should put your Patatas Bravos on and give it a Tapas with your stick .

You're welcome .
 
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I'm having some big issues with Deza. First, though I was warned how little PREs need to eat I had no real idea what people meant. I have her down to 5kg of haylage, soaked 24 hours, and then straw to top up, muzzled for turnout and she is still getting pulses and not losing weight. I am absolutely hating having two horses on such different feed regimes, it's ruining my whole barn free range management system that has worked well for 20 years.

Second, she's too wide. I'm narrow through the hips, old and creaky, and I've begun to get issues that I haven't had since I sold my cob. Today a biomechanics instructor told me I was sat to the right and I haven't been told that since I sold my cob either. It seems when I'm on a horse that's too wide I sit slanted and then can't get my right leg working properly and they fall in on the right rein. Exactly the issue I had last time around.

She's a cracking mare but I feel a bit defeated and I'm seriously thinking of selling :(
 
ycbm said:
I'm having some big issues with Deza. First, though I was warned how little PREs need to eat I had no real idea what people meant. I have her down to 5kg of haylage, soaked 24 hours, and then straw to top up, muzzled for turnout and she is still getting pulses and not losing weight. I am absolutely hating having two horses on such different feed regimes, it's ruining my whole barn free range management system that has worked well for 20 years.

Second, she's too wide. I'm narrow through the hips, old and creaky, and I've begun to get issues that I haven't had since I sold my cob. Today a biomechanics instructor told me I was sat to the right and I haven't been told that since I sold my cob either. It seems when I'm on a horse that's too wide I sit slanted and then can't get my right leg working properly and they fall in on the right rein. Exactly the issue I had last time around.

She's a cracking mare but I feel a bit defeated and I'm seriously thinking of selling :(
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What a pity!

I am sorry to hear that but we need to be able to sit comfortably as we get older. Would a different saddle help?
 
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I don't think so PaS. It's the width between my knees that's the issue and my knees are as close to her as you can get, they aren't on the blocks, they are behind them, and it's a monoflap.
 
ycbm said:
I'm having some big issues with Deza. First, though I was warned how little PREs need to eat I had no real idea what people meant. I have her down to 5kg of haylage, soaked 24 hours, and then straw to top up, muzzled for turnout and she is still getting pulses and not losing weight. I am absolutely hating having two horses on such different feed regimes, it's ruining my whole barn free range management system that has worked well for 20 years.

Second, she's too wide. I'm narrow through the hips, old and creaky, and I've begun to get issues that I haven't had since I sold my cob. Today a biomechanics instructor told me I was sat to the right and I haven't been told that since I sold my cob either. It seems when I'm on a horse that's too wide I sit slanted and then can't get my right leg working properly and they fall in on the right rein. Exactly the issue I had last time around.

She's a cracking mare but I feel a bit defeated and I'm seriously thinking of selling :(
Click to expand...

My mare, who looks weirdly so similar to your lindeza!...she’s half arab and half welsh D, black with splash of white on her rear hoof.

Like lindeza, held weight no matter how little i fed her. Fat pads appeared....im soaking hay for years, no change.

Quit that upon further research, added 10g per day of mag oxide, food grade. Magnesium is essential for sugars to be pushed into cells and used for energy. Without adequate magnesium the body will store sugars as fat. Magnesium is low in forage and grass, unless you add Dolomite to your paddocks.

Mine are on mineral/vit balancers and i assumed for ages that the mag in the mix was ‘expertly mixed’ to give balanced nutrition. But it isnt. Its mag content is far too low. So i add extra mag oxide ontop of generic balancer mix.

Secondly quit the straw. I know its a common top up for fatties but look at the research out there. Some straws are low sugar and some are very high and can be higher than grass hays.
Take a peek at this article on feeding straw and why its not a good idea for fatties/insulin resistance, unless you have a consisten supply/same supplier and get it tested to make sure the total sugar content is low:

https://gettyequinenutrition.com/pages/feeding-straw-to-the-insulin-resistant-horse-may-be-a-mistake



Next, i’d pick a haylage that’s high fibre. I wouldnt soak haylage as ive tried it in the past for the reasons you are but just for a couple of hours and i really didnt like the smell at the end ....gut instinct said not to continue, the sugars should all be fermented anyway with it being haylage.
I fed soaked haylage and she had raised foot pulses.
Many haylages are tetraploid ryegrass, and if cut early...around june...will be higher sugars and less fibre. If cut later its much higher in fibre and protein as the seedhead matures more and much lower in sugars.

Since stopping soaking hay/haylage ( free at last!!!) And just adding at least 10g per day of mag ox and getting high fibre haylage...my fat mare lost her fat pads...and i could feel her ribs and the consistent up and down raised pulses/laminitis scares are a thing of the past - AND she can eat all the grass she can get into her greedy self unmuzzled!

The only feed company using tetraploid ryegrass that really are high fibre and she looked the best Ever on and she was eating unsoaked 9kg of the stuff per 24hrs is ‘marksway hi-fibre’ Haylage. Being in the uk youll get it far cheaper than me importing it into ireland. Other says theyre hi-fibre but theyre not as hi fibre as the fore-mentioned supplier.

I’ve had my mare on other brands of ‘high fibre ryegrass haylage’ and she has pulsed feet within 48hrs. You can tell the really dodgy stuff by the very sweet sickly smell it has.....and its very glossy and golden yellow, almost tacky to touch. I now, never feed haylage that smells and feels like that....i call it ‘horse crack’....they love it due to it being partially fermented and high sugar.

On Marksway hi-fibre haylage she’s looked her best, had best foot growth, and her coat shiny. Apart from that she was getting a generic balancer....with added mag ox, in a handful of beet pulp. ....and all the grass she can eat during grazing months and she’s still slim!
i couldnt believe the next spring when she came in from grazing the first few weeks without raised pulses! That was the first time in years!

It’s worth trying a change as she really could slim down, mine no longer waddles around with a wide gut and fat pads while being starved. Its such a frustrating position to be in.

marksway also do timothy haylage which id recommend too, and i mix that in with their high fibre ryegrass for variety and more fibre/less sugar and to avoid a mono-diet of just ryegrass during winter, when there’s not much grass.

There’s hope for lindeza and your hips ?
 
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Also, just to say, any bowel bacterial change can cause footiness, raised pulses, and the soaked haylage may be causing a reaction to her bowel microbiome environment. Soaking for so long a fermented forage is encouraging it to ferment more in water and could be changing its properties, causing gastro upset and thus raised pulses/footiness.

If anything, in the meantime Before you decide if you want to change forage, I’d do the opposite you’re doing: id soak the straw and feed your haylage as it is, unsoaked, unless you know its high sugar haylage, id only soak for an hour and feed straight away, while adding in mag ox too.
 
Well, if it's not going to work, it's not going to work. I'm sure you can find a suitable home for her as she sounds like a nice horse.

But a few things that may be relevant, or not:

I feel as though mine is a bit more rotund than Deza is, but he's had no pulses. I don't know if pictures are deceiving, but she didn't look terribly obese IIRC, and I wonder if more muscle on her would help her with the pulses and handling food. Mone does not do well with haylage and blows up. I avoid straw too. I just use watered hay.

I've used magnesium oxide in the past, and I think you previously said you already have that covered.

What kind of work is she in?

I don't know that all PRE's are super good doers, as mine does eat a fair amount when in work, and others I've dealt with have handled a good amount of hay and even some additional concentrated feed. So it depends on the horse, but I've not met one that had particularly high requirements.

Oddly enough I had a similar issue with sitting crooked on my horse. I tipped to the left. I also rode in a monoflap and my leg behind a block, so nothing bulky. However, it did end up being the saddle, and when I tried others (another brand entirely) I felt much better. My horse was also a tad asymmetrical, and I addressed that. However, if you've had this issue in the past, I suppose it is not such a fixable thing for you and some shapes simply won't work. I can totally understand how ones body just doesn't work with a horse that is wider.

I just find it odd how little food she is on that she still gets pulses. I don't know if something else is going on or what isn't working in the food. I mean, how did she do at her last home?

Either way, she may not be such an issue for someone with a different set-up and sounds like a nice horse, so best of luck to her and you if/when you do sell.
 
I am sad to hear that, she looks wonderful, but I guess she can be wonderful elsewhere and you can have a horse that fits in with your lifestyle better.

On the subject of haulage, that is interesting and I will look into it for my lad with his lami, ems and cushings. I hate soaking hay with a vengeance, and my local farmer does a dry haylage that he says will be suitable, I will have it analysed and see what the starch/sugar situation is with that.
 
ycbm said:
I'm having some big issues with Deza. First, though I was warned how little PREs need to eat I had no real idea what people meant. I have her down to 5kg of haylage, soaked 24 hours, and then straw to top up, muzzled for turnout and she is still getting pulses and not losing weight. I am absolutely hating having two horses on such different feed regimes, it's ruining my whole barn free range management system that has worked well for 20 years.

Second, she's too wide. I'm narrow through the hips, old and creaky, and I've begun to get issues that I haven't had since I sold my cob. Today a biomechanics instructor told me I was sat to the right and I haven't been told that since I sold my cob either. It seems when I'm on a horse that's too wide I sit slanted and then can't get my right leg working properly and they fall in on the right rein. Exactly the issue I had last time around.

She's a cracking mare but I feel a bit defeated and I'm seriously thinking of selling :(
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Hmm... yes I know the feeling. One of the PRE's can eat anything and doesn't change, the other can breathe a blade of grass and her belly touches the ground. It's genetic I believe depending on the bloodlines.

I always thought all horses need high fibre and low sugar... PRE's also need that but also protein. More protein makes the digestion longer. Since I added protein (quite a lot) we've not had to put the muzzle on - and I've kept the work load as high as she can handle. May work, as with all things, each horse is an indivijool! My vet said all horses need to live on a mountain with no grass. He's right of course... anyone know of a sunny mountain this side of Andalusia?
 
Oh the protein thing, that is an interesting point, my PRE is also on a high protein diet. He eats Agrobs MyoProtein flakes, a high protein muesli, and Brewer's Yeast. The muesli has a high fat content due to linseed in it. All is low sugar and starch. He also gets added Vitamin E.

He does well with this. No excess drinking, peeing, or smelly pee so I think it is not too much for his system.
 
Would your fields handle a track system? Mim gets extraordinarily fat on grass and this year has actually worked really well for her.

I completely understand what you mean about two management systems - I had the ancient ISH and a pony with Mim last year, and it was exhausting to juggle them.

Re the width, my only thought is that sometimes it’s just the angle and the width combined, and maybe a change in saddle will shift where your hips are in relation to your knees?
 
Ugh, that's a bit rotten for you. I'm in an extra wide saddle and I feel your pain - funnily enough I seem to get shoved right by it too, again not an issue on narrower things.
As for management that sounds really tough, I cant suggest much - I'm sure there will be a way if you are determined to make it work, however nobody could blame you for finding her a home with a more suitable set up and a horse you love riding. Horses are expensive and time consuming, if it's not lighting you up personally I see nothing wrong with finding a horse a more suited home and you a more suited horse
 
PurBee said:
My mare, who looks weirdly so similar to your lindeza!...she’s half arab and half welsh D, black with splash of white on her rear hoof.

Like lindeza, held weight no matter how little i fed her. Fat pads appeared....im soaking hay for years, no change.

Quit that upon further research, added 10g per day of mag oxide, food grade. Magnesium is essential for sugars to be pushed into cells and used for energy. Without adequate magnesium the body will store sugars as fat. Magnesium is low in forage and grass, unless you add Dolomite to your paddocks.

Mine are on mineral/vit balancers and i assumed for ages that the mag in the mix was ‘expertly mixed’ to give balanced nutrition. But it isnt. Its mag content is far too low. So i add extra mag oxide ontop of generic balancer mix.

Secondly quit the straw. I know its a common top up for fatties but look at the research out there. Some straws are low sugar and some are very high and can be higher than grass hays.
Take a peek at this article on feeding straw and why its not a good idea for fatties/insulin resistance, unless you have a consisten supply/same supplier and get it tested to make sure the total sugar content is low:

https://gettyequinenutrition.com/pages/feeding-straw-to-the-insulin-resistant-horse-may-be-a-mistake



Next, i’d pick a haylage that’s high fibre. I wouldnt soak haylage as ive tried it in the past for the reasons you are but just for a couple of hours and i really didnt like the smell at the end ....gut instinct said not to continue, the sugars should all be fermented anyway with it being haylage.
I fed soaked haylage and she had raised foot pulses.
Many haylages are tetraploid ryegrass, and if cut early...around june...will be higher sugars and less fibre. If cut later its much higher in fibre and protein as the seedhead matures more and much lower in sugars.

Since stopping soaking hay/haylage ( free at last!!!) And just adding at least 10g per day of mag ox and getting high fibre haylage...my fat mare lost her fat pads...and i could feel her ribs and the consistent up and down raised pulses/laminitis scares are a thing of the past - AND she can eat all the grass she can get into her greedy self unmuzzled!

The only feed company using tetraploid ryegrass that really are high fibre and she looked the best Ever on and she was eating unsoaked 9kg of the stuff per 24hrs is ‘marksway hi-fibre’ Haylage. Being in the uk youll get it far cheaper than me importing it into ireland. Other says theyre hi-fibre but theyre not as hi fibre as the fore-mentioned supplier.

I’ve had my mare on other brands of ‘high fibre ryegrass haylage’ and she has pulsed feet within 48hrs. You can tell the really dodgy stuff by the very sweet sickly smell it has.....and its very glossy and golden yellow, almost tacky to touch. I now, never feed haylage that smells and feels like that....i call it ‘horse crack’....they love it due to it being partially fermented and high sugar.

On Marksway hi-fibre haylage she’s looked her best, had best foot growth, and her coat shiny. Apart from that she was getting a generic balancer....with added mag ox, in a handful of beet pulp. ....and all the grass she can eat during grazing months and she’s still slim!
i couldnt believe the next spring when she came in from grazing the first few weeks without raised pulses! That was the first time in years!

It’s worth trying a change as she really could slim down, mine no longer waddles around with a wide gut and fat pads while being starved. Its such a frustrating position to be in.

marksway also do timothy haylage which id recommend too, and i mix that in with their high fibre ryegrass for variety and more fibre/less sugar and to avoid a mono-diet of just ryegrass during winter, when there’s not much grass.

There’s hope for lindeza and your hips ?
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Thank you but she is already on magnesium and started on the winter supply of haylage that I have still to use after buying too much last year.
 
LadyGascoyne said:
Would your fields handle a track system? Mim gets extraordinarily fat on grass and this year has actually worked really well for her.

I completely understand what you mean about two management systems - I had the ancient ISH and a pony with Mim last year, and it was exhausting to juggle them.

Re the width, my only thought is that sometimes it’s just the angle and the width combined, and maybe a change in saddle will shift where your hips are in relation to your knees?
Click to expand...


I ride all my horses in the same saddles, WOWs and I have had them for years. I really don't think it would help to do anything but ride shorter and I could do that in a WOW but it's not how I want to ride.
.
 
tallyho! said:
Hmm... yes I know the feeling. One of the PRE's can eat anything and doesn't change, the other can breathe a blade of grass and her belly touches the ground. It's genetic I believe depending on the bloodlines.

I always thought all horses need high fibre and low sugar... PRE's also need that but also protein. More protein makes the digestion longer. Since I added protein (quite a lot) we've not had to put the muzzle on - and I've kept the work load as high as she can handle. May work, as with all things, each horse is an indivijool! My vet said all horses need to live on a mountain with no grass. He's right of course... anyone know of a sunny mountain this side of Andalusia?
Click to expand...

That's interesting about the protein, thanks.

Work would work for her, not for me. I do not want to be driven to ride on wild winter days, it turns keeping horses into a chore. I don't ride every day, I never have, and I don't want to have to start now.

I don't want a sharer, either, I would rather sell her than manage a sharer.
 
PurBee said:
Also, just to say, any bowel bacterial change can cause footiness, raised pulses, and the soaked haylage may be causing a reaction to her bowel microbiome environment. Soaking for so long a fermented forage is encouraging it to ferment more in water and could be changing its properties, causing gastro upset and thus raised pulses/footiness.

If anything, in the meantime Before you decide if you want to change forage, I’d do the opposite you’re doing: id soak the straw and feed your haylage as it is, unsoaked, unless you know its high sugar haylage, id only soak for an hour and feed straight away, while adding in mag ox too.
Click to expand...

I have soaked haylage many times over the years with various horses, had two on it this time with both showing no problems with their droppings at all. I don't see any reason why soaking haylage is in any way different from soaking grass. At the time you soak it, fermentation has stopped and I reckon is no more likely to restart in haylage than in hay. It always smells great, I would not feed it if it didn't.

But the soaking has now stopped anyway as of today because I'm moving on to a less sugary big bale after using up the summer's small bale, and if she can only eat less of it she will have straw to top up.
.
 
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I watched her last night and it was fascinating. She had a choice of soaked haylage, Top Chop zero and barley straw. She was eating the chop until Ludo started to pick at the straw, then this happened

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She was cramming as much in her mouth as she could get in it, it was like watching a conveyor belt.

I went outside and moved the bin, and she went back to the chop and then ate the haylage.

She's a competitive eater. Keeping them together, even later in the winter, is never going to work.

1646449_2020-10-22 22_57_30.jpg
 
ive had a nightmare with hip pain when riding my ID mare, so i totally understand where you are coming from. The things that have worked for me are :
1.sports rehab - they want to get you doing sports pain free, he had me in the gym to strengthen up as well as massage. Plus sent me home with a lost of exercises. Im due another visit as creaking again, but hes only gone and got covid. How inconvenient !
2. Cycling - if im having a particularly bad day i hop on the bike and it seems to free me up.
3. Dont be afraid to take paracetomol and ibuprofen . I take them on bad days and it really helps

I figure we need to use it or lose it, and im hell bent on not losing anything until i run out of options.

ive gone from having to hold onto furniture to walk around the house, to now being relatively pain free. It still hurts getting on and off

as for your mare getting chubby, its hard work having a good doer. Its even harder when they are retired. Maybe pop her in the arena for a few hours in the ay to keep her off the grass. It works for my old girl Asha. She hates it, but i figure its better than getting lami.
 
I feel your pain with the diet thing. Millie is barrel-shaped (bigger than your mare, going by your photo) and it’s a constant battle. She’s on 4kg hay overnight, which she doesn’t even eat all of (usually leaves about 1kg) muzzled during the day and has a balancer and a little handful of oats which her magnesium and joint supplement goes in. I have to work her at least 5 days a week or she would balloon. She’s not greedy in the slightest, but her body just seems to be brilliant at storing every bit of food she gets!
Only good thing is, she never gets pulses. Whereas Polly, much, much slimmer than Millie, gets pulses at the drop of a hat in summer.
 
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