Is a 14 year old too old to change?

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Zipzop

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Had my boy for 10 years. He has always been difficult. I have posted on here about him before. He is a very typical sec d.

Over the years we have competed locally, (years ago), retrained classically, however due to his behaviour and 'mental capacity for life' (thats the only way i can describe it!) we have never gotten very far. He has never been able to canter in a balanced fashion and no matter what I do/have tried it didnt ever get better.

He has been bitted/bitless, treed/treeless, barefoot. Had regular everything, chiro, shiatsu, cranio, bodywork, vet checks, blood tests, supplement trials, regular work and long breaks from work. We have had huge amounts of input from various instructors and I am an instructor myself.

He is now 14 years old and I just cant give up on him. I think i'm mad but I just dont want to let go of my dreams to do what i what to do with him, which is to just walk, trot and canter in a steady way, Have a little jump and maybe go to a few very local competitions.

My questions is, is he too old to keep on trying with, do i need to realise that having done everything ive done with him, that we are at the end of the road?, could it ever come right and work out the way i'd like it too or am i 'flogging a dead horse', so to speak?
 
Hard to say - if it’s him then yes if you’ve not fixed him by now then you’re wasting your time. However if it’s you, then the right instructor might be able to help. When I say you, I don’t mean that as an insult, it could simply be your facilities or something like that which has prevented progress but 10 years is a long time to not have got the canter! If you’re an instructor then you presumably must know if it’s him or circumstance? What do the people who have seen him in the flesh think? Have you got a video of him you could post?
 
I got my mare at 14 and she couldn't trot round the outside of the school in a balanced fashion never mind canter or do circles. By 20, when her arthritis put a stop to proper schooling, she had 3 balanced paces and was working towards half pass. Her confirmation is awful and completely set against her but we got there in the end although we never did compete because loading up happily was a problem I never managed to solve. How? Lots of hacking, sneaking the schooling in when she was enjoying herself out and about. Plus a whole load of wonderful input from my instructor (who trains in a French Classical style for the most part). Classical in hand work made a huge difference for the final steps towards canter actually being workable. So yes a 14 year I'm horse can change it's stripes and develop it's schooling. But she was new to me and hadn't had the classical input previously and temperamentally she is pretty sound. Independent and grumpy and will not be forced but would work for you til the ends of the earth once you have her on your side (typical Anglo arab).

Don't give up! Maybe just look for some new input but also stick at stuff if there is even the slightest hint of improvements . Chopping and changing to find the answer can mean you miss the answer as things take so much time!

How about some horse agility stuff to work on his mental capacity? Or give in hand work a go?
 
Zipzop said:
Had my boy for 10 years. He has always been difficult. I have posted on here about him before. He is a very typical sec d.

Over the years we have competed locally, (years ago), retrained classically, however due to his behaviour and 'mental capacity for life' (thats the only way i can describe it!) we have never gotten very far. He has never been able to canter in a balanced fashion and no matter what I do/have tried it didnt ever get better.

He has been bitted/bitless, treed/treeless, barefoot. Had regular everything, chiro, shiatsu, cranio, bodywork, vet checks, blood tests, supplement trials, regular work and long breaks from work. We have had huge amounts of input from various instructors and I am an instructor myself.

He is now 14 years old and I just cant give up on him. I think i'm mad but I just dont want to let go of my dreams to do what i what to do with him, which is to just walk, trot and canter in a steady way, Have a little jump and maybe go to a few very local competitions.

My questions is, is he too old to keep on trying with, do i need to realise that having done everything ive done with him, that we are at the end of the road?, could it ever come right and work out the way i'd like it too or am i 'flogging a dead horse', so to speak?
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If your horse is one of those who enjoys learning and having new input then the answer is no, he is not too old. MY first mare was 12 when I got her and she loved new things, not all horses like people enjoy new things or new aspects of training. My gelding thrives on input and loves being taught new things so for him it would be an easy yes answer.


Does your trainer ride him and try new things with him, I would say she (apart from you) is the best person to ask if he enjoys or wants to lean new things.
 
What does he do that is unbalanced, I am finding it quite hard to fathom that after 10 years of work any horse wouldn't be able to canter in a balanced manner unless it was particularly physically compromised, or bred not to canter.

Has he ever been sent away for someone else to have a go?
 
ester said:
What does he do that is unbalanced, I am finding it quite hard to fathom that after 10 years of work any horse wouldn't be able to canter in a balanced manner unless it was particularly physically compromised, or bred not to canter.

Has he ever been sent away for someone else to have a go?
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Yes he has had others try but he was so scared of other people riding him he couldnt cope
 
ester said:
Does he have history behind that or just him?
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His history is that he was unhandled until he was about 3 years old. A lady bought him and two others from a field of about 50 horses (travellers) to be backed and used in her riding school(!) All three were completely unhandled and not tame. They were not cut either. She had them gelded and decided she had made a mistake as they were not going to be suitable!

Apparently, one of them double barrelled someone in the stable and was subsequently PTS. The second one was too dangerous to sell on as a riding horse so she kept it and then mine was the best of a bad bunch. I bought him when I was ALOT younger and fell in love with him, very foolishly!

He was backed before i bought him, just.

He had been sent away to be professionally backed and the they took him out cross country the week he was backed.

So he had a pretty traumatic start and when i went to view him, he jumped out of his skin if you so much as touched his hind quarters or sneezed near him. When they rode him, as the girl mounted, they held him down so tightly and kept asking her if she was ok! Then they proceeded to trot him round and round for about half an hour in the blistering heat before letting me get on. I should have known shouldn't I but I had fallen in love!!!!

When they dropped him off they said if you ever give him any time off, lunge him first. I didnt believe them and subsequently got rodeoed off a few times for not listening to this bit of advice.

He was terrible to hack in the beginning and would not let any other horses go near his back end. He is still as bad today and i cant barely hack.
 
I think I'd be asking myself for whose benefit are you carrying on with this horse. He doesn't sound very happy to be a ridden horse. I would have given up a long time ago because life is too short and too precious! Why not retire him and get something you can achieve your aims on happily?
 
FfionWinnie said:
I think I'd be asking myself for whose benefit are you carrying on with this horse. He doesn't sound very happy to be a ridden horse. I would have given up a long time ago because life is too short and too precious! Why not retire him and get something you can achieve your aims on happily?
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Perhaps you are right, he is very stressy. Its just when i ride him,i feel like ive gone home. All my relearning of classical stuff has been on him. i know i can use it on other horses - for some reason in my mind i have linked my riding career and success to this little horse. Somewhere deep inside of me feels like if i let go of all we have done or are trying to achieve, then my riding career will be over. I know it makes no sense (i'm in my 30's) but to say ok ill stop with him and try on something else feels like something inside of me would die a bit and it makes me experience a feeling of grief. Weird...
 
FfionWinnie said:
I think I'd be asking myself for whose benefit are you carrying on with this horse. He doesn't sound very happy to be a ridden horse. I would have given up a long time ago because life is too short and too precious! Why not retire him and get something you can achieve your aims on happily?
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This, I suspect you are now part of the problem, not meaning that in a negative way but you know him so well that you are either making allowances, accepting his limitations or avoiding the issues and I don't blame you in the least, the only suggestion would be to make the move and see if that helps in any way, staying where you are with no facilities will probably mean semi retirement anyway so if moving him brings that forward it is worth the risk, if it doesn't work out then reassess but if he were mine I would have given up long ago and with all his health problems I am not sure I would keep him retired if it was in a livery yard, I have my own land so retiring is an easy option.
 
be positive said:
This, I suspect you are now part of the problem, not meaning that in a negative way but you know him so well that you are either making allowances, accepting his limitations or avoiding the issues and I don't blame you in the least, the only suggestion would be to make the move and see if that helps in any way, staying where you are with no facilities will probably mean semi retirement anyway so if moving him brings that forward it is worth the risk, if it doesn't work out then reassess but if he were mine I would have given up long ago and with all his health problems I am not sure I would keep him retired if it was in a livery yard, I have my own land so retiring is an easy option.
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as usual BP speaks a lot of sense, from your other thread it does sound like the current yard is not going to help you progress at all but you seemed very stressed and anxious about the idea of moving. I think some horses pick up on high levels of stress or worry in their human and feed off it - just throwing that in as something to think about.

I also find that when you are desperate to improve something, you (not you personally, one does) tend to give off some rather stressy signals and when you can curb the desperation that's usually when stuff starts to slot into place. your feelings around needing to turn him around/grief etc just point to not necessarily being in the right headspace to deal with a stressy horse in the best way?

After 10 years I am like ester also quite surprised that you've not been able to make progress with him despite his background, unless there's something fundamentally wrong with him. In this time, have you had access to other horses to ride? It's hard to stay at the top of your game when you have a difficult horse. Would it be worth looking for some schoolmaster lessons etc to hone your skills so you can be best placed to help him?
 
Zipzop said:
Perhaps you are right, he is very stressy. Its just when i ride him,i feel like ive gone home. All my relearning of classical stuff has been on him. i know i can use it on other horses - for some reason in my mind i have linked my riding career and success to this little horse. Somewhere deep inside of me feels like if i let go of all we have done or are trying to achieve, then my riding career will be over. I know it makes no sense (i'm in my 30's) but to say ok ill stop with him and try on something else feels like something inside of me would die a bit and it makes me experience a feeling of grief. Weird...
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Not weird at all and I can really sympathise with you.

My horse is the same age and I've had her a similar length of time. She's not stressy but just plain opinionated and often b****y minded. My goal was to compete at dressage but her attitude to schooling has always kept it just that bit beyond reach. I still plug away at the schooling as I just can't give up - it would feel too much of a failure and I keep thinking with age she will become more mellow. Like you, when I'm sitting on her it just feels like home and so right.

It sounds like your horse is lucky to have found you. For as long as you feel that you are both gaining some enjoyment, I think you should keep plugging away at it like me! Remember that sometimes you have to look back to see how far you've come.
 
Did nothing ever come out from the vets/chiro/physio interactions? Was nothing ever found that could cause the problems you are experiencing?.When horses misbehave there is nearly always a physical reason why, because they find the work hard, or they are in pain whilst doing the work expected from them. Why was he turned away? Have you ever tried a bute trial? Is he worth having the vet out again with a full investigation to see if there is an underlying problem? Maybe he is in pain and this manifests in the symptoms you describe? Maybe he doesn't understand what is being asked of him.

Lots of questions there. I would suggest a bute trial is the easiest way of establishing if his behavior is pain related though. I know you had all the checks done but it sounds like this was sometime ago, so maybe a fresh pair of eyes and all that.
 
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[Would it be worth looking for some schoolmaster lessons etc to hone your skills so you can be best placed to help him?[/QUOTE]

That sounds like a good idea for us both! (we cross posted)
 
Yes I do understand that. I was rather the same with my first sheep dog. Everyone told me to give up as he was useless but I persevered, stubbornly. I did train him to a reasonable degree and got my first shepherding job as him as my main dog, but when I got my next dog who was an utter delight (and was also someone’s cast off so that tells you how awful the first one was!) I realised what they had been trying to tell me was completely true.

Haven’t read your other thread but agree that horses definitely pick up on stress - especially Welsh Ds!
 
No I don't think he is too old to change, but given the situation you describe I think it is unlikely

If you just like having him in your life then is it possible to keep doing bits with him but get another to school alongside? Might just take the pressure off your working relationship with him a bit as well as letting you getting into the groove of achieving stuff with another
 
He sounds a bit 'sec D'. I had one exactly the same, and it does seem that, though there are many fab section Ds, there are some that are just on another planet like this. e.g. took mine like four years to be ok wearing a rug, I never thought we'd be able to have neck covers.... velcro was the hugest issue ever, let alone mounting when the sun was out and therefore shadow would move... does that sound familiar?
I have to say, clicker training is what changed mine round, I didn't use it all the time but it changed our relationship because I was able to ask him to work 'with' me, I used it when having more classical-ish lessons too. I cannot tell you what a difference that made.
If this is any help, he was in the end able to hack alone (we even did some endurance on our own, but it was quite ermmm interesting), as well as doing other things like hunting and what have you. He even wore rugs with necks AND velcro boots sometimes :-p. I wouldn't ever say he was straightforward though!
Even if you're not a clicker fan, what different approaches have you tried? One thing my sec D definitely taught me is that there's no sense just persevering and hoping for the best if you find something difficult, you have to think outside the box and find another way.

Sadly, I lost him last year to colic when he was 15, but I have to say - in hindsight, I do think I persevered for me rather than for him, and I wonder if I'd have known that I'd lose him, whether I would have spent more time just hanging out and doing fun (for him) things rather than trying to 'improve' him so much. Sometimes I look at pictures of us doing things which were ostensibly 'fun' such as endurance and sponsored rides, and while I feel he enjoyed them on some level, you can see in his face that he's stressed and anxious, and I'm still not sure ethically if I think that was the right thing to do.
 
see I'm well aware that some D's can be very D, I just consider 10 years to be a very long time with no real change even with the most stressed and insecure of horses.

OP do you think his inability to canter well is because he is just too tense to do so?
 
I was in a similar position with my boy 10 years ago. I'd only had him 2 years but I'd bought him to be an all rounder and while he was the best hack I've ever ridden, the rest of it really wasn't falling into place. He was difficult on the flat, would put in filthy stops when show jumping (XC was ok) and get very stressy and nappy when we went anywhere.

Our hand was forced when he went lame and, with hindsight, it was all down to him being in pain. It was a condition that wouldn't go away and would just have to be managed so I had a decision to make, whether to keep him and accept limited riding or find him a hacking home and get something else. I got really lucky in that my best friend at the time was having babies so I started sharing her horse - a total gent - and I've spent the last 10 years doing all that I had been hoping to do with my horse with him. While it wasn't A's fault, the relief when I could 'legitimately' stop doing things with him was incredible and the fun I've had with M has been great. He's just so easy, I can't believe the hassle I used to put up with taking A anywhere.

I've managed to keep A by having sharers. Although these days I don't need it financially, now his condition is managed, he loves his work and keeping busy so he has a sharer who hacks him out a couple of days a week. He had a fair break from going anywhere except the beach and fun rides (I will still pick him over M to hack and do things like this with, he's loads of fun) but when M was lame for a few months a couple of years ago we started to do a bit of dressage. The years he spent chilling did him the world of good and since he's started going places again and realised it doesn't have to hurt he's so much better and happier. I've also improved so much as a rider that I can now get a pretty decent prelim test out of A, even though it 's still not his favourite thing!

If you can find a way of taking the pressure off your boy by buying or sharing another, it will probably make you both much happier and it might even help him improve.
 
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Hi OP. As to whether he'll change or not, my feeling would be after 10 years, probably not. But I just wanted to say I know how you feel about riding him. I used to share/loan another horse (also a very nervous Welsh D funnily enough) and riding him was like coming home. I've never had that feeling on another horse and if the chance came up to have him back, I would in a heartbeat. Even though that would mean a complete change in my riding plans - he improved vastly when I worked with him but he wouldn't have ever been anything beyond a happy hacker - but because it was him I was/would be totally ok with it. So I think some of it is taking a step back and just enjoying him for who he is - you never know, with the pressure off some of it may come back together, and if it doesn't it will at least hopefully be more enjoyable for you both. I have to say though, if he gets stressed by being ridden/handled, is it fair to him to try and continue? And I mean that in the nicest way I can.
 
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