Is a cob harder to train than a warmblood?

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ycbm

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Is a cob harder to train for dressage than a warmblood? And how does different breeding compare?

Just musing about how difficult various horses I've had have been to train for flat work/dressage. I'm currently training a short and thick necked, thick through the gullet Clydex up to medium standard and he's possibly the most difficult horse I've ever trained at this level.

He isn't naturally built to do dressage, and he's a master at shifting my weight where he wants it (forwards and to the left) and using the strength in his neck to run straight out through the bit.

The easiest, until kissing spines got too much for him, was a purpose bred Hanoverian warmblood.

Comparing the two it was so easy to train the warmblood. He was preprogrammed with the aids for lengthening, shortening, impulsion and cadence. Another warmblood I had was temperamentally very difficult (KWPN) but again physically extremely talented with natural cadence and elevation.

What are your experiences? Do people who can get a tune out of horses not designed for dressage have a harder time of it, or just a different time of it? Are they more skillful, or differently skilled?
 
I've no experience with dressage bred warmbloods but I was surprised by how the sport horse took to lengthenings. I expected his legs to start moving furiously but the first time I asked, he powered forward and actually felt like a fancy dressage type. He's a half bred ish. Mabey the sport horse conformation helps.
 
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The warmblood may be easier, but it is far more satisfying producing a silk purse out of a pig's ear - especially if you are not aiming for the Olympics. I have great satisfaction getting great results from the less athelitic horse, rather than riding a superstar and not having the riding ability to get the best out of him
 
Good question...

I'm not really qualified to answer if I'm honest, having never trained/competed either a purpose bred warmblood or a cob above novice level. It's definitely easier with a purpose bred at that level to pick up good marks because they've got easy balance and rhythm there naturally, so once you've taught them fairly basic commands you're good to go.

But I have backed a fair few in each category and I would say that you get naturally heavy, hard work horses and naturally light touch horses in both types. Some warmbloods look very easy but are a real workout to ride and take (ime) a particular type of rider to produce them really well above elementary/medium level.

The most consistently straightforward types to train I've found are natives. As long as you get their brains then they can be trained well with all sorts of approach and by all sorts of rider. Their movement is generally rhythmic, forward and easy to develop. Closely followed by thoroughbreds.
 
I think that quite a lot might depend on the individual horse. I've certainly not trained him myself but my cob's rider is enjoying teaching him as he picks things up fairly easily, remembers what he has been taught and is fairly even tempered. The other horses on the yard are mostly warmbloods and as DabDab has said they often seem to be quite hard work. My rider has said that some will learn a movement one day and then have totally forgotten it the next so it can take a lot of skill and patience until the message sinks in! Many also seem to be much more reactive to changes in weather, objects in different places, changes in routine etc.

My son's horse is an Anglo-arab x cob. He is very well put together and a responsive, safe and clever ride. Once he has done something in the school twice he will helpfully perform that move on the third time round with very minimal rider intervention. Brains and elegance combined!
 
Depends what you mean by harder to train. Having trained both I would say a cob is easier to train to the lower levels but struggles physically at the higher levels to get things like extension and tempo changes ... they just don’t have the natural athleticism that the warmbloods do... my cob can do the trot work including a baby piaffe and passage but we struggle with tempis and canter half pass - he just runs out of steam - I don’t see him going any higher than medium in a truest competitive way.
 
I love my cob and we do enjoy training but she can be tricky. She doesn't suffer fools! Needs sensitive riding and lots of praise and encouragement. She gets very happy when she knows she's getting it right. She's pretty athletic but definitely a natural collector rather than extender. I think she's clever but that's a good and bad thing as she learns evasions as well as good stuff so you've got to be on the ball. No where near as bad as the Anglo Arab for that though :lol:

Cob's favourite trick is definitely to get her weight through her left shoulder! I think shoulder barging is a feature of cobs.

I can't compare to a warmblood as I've never trained one. She's easier in most ways than the Anglo but my Anglo was very very jaded by the whole thing by the time she came to me so not necessarily representative.
 
I also think this is a lot down to the individual horse (and rider).

My welshie (built like a stumpy cob rather than the sporty variety of Ds) has been difficult temperamentally but finds the work quite fun once she agrees. She was fairly average to get up to medium and then really started to shine when we taught her changes. She loved learning tempis and has a talent for piaffe. She struggles a bit with being told what to do ;) but once she's on side she is very willing and learns fast. The biggest thing for her is her fitness, advanced level work is really intense for her and I have to manage her energy carefully so as not to waste it.

My WB is a totally different ride. In theory she should find it easier but her brain is useless by comparison. It's much harder to get her to concentrate and her capacity to learn is nothing like the pony brains I've worked with. She forgets what she was doing 5 mins earlier if we have a walk break :lol: and when she loses her balance it's much harder to manage because it's like she's a puppet with the strings cut. She's the most kind, honest horse but it feels like slow progress at times. On the other hand she's not bright enough to have a million evasions either so when she understands, she will have a good crack at something.

So for me I've figured it's less about the body they have and more about whether they are quick witted or not. That doesn't guarantee big scores but makes them easier to train. I like horses that are thinkers. But I'll keep going with the Hann, she's a sweetheart and there's no time limit, plus they are an interesting contrast. I feel a bit out of control when she's properly forward as she's got much bigger movement so also good for my own development!
 
blitznbobs said:
Depends what you mean by harder to train. Having trained both I would say a cob is easier to train to the lower levels but struggles physically at the higher levels to get things like extension and tempo changes ... they just don’t have the natural athleticism that the warmbloods do... my cob can do the trot work including a baby piaffe and passage but we struggle with tempis and canter half pass - he just runs out of steam - I don’t see him going any higher than medium in a truest competitive way.
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I think this is where I am at. Because the work mine is doing now isn't natural for him, it's talking a lot more skill to get it out of him. He doesn't have natural tick tock rhythm and it's taking all my core strength to keep him in it.

All the purpose breds I've ridden have just had natural rhythm and the work was just a lot easier.

I feel as if I'm having to be a much more effective rider to get it out of him, though, as Ellen Jay says, it's probably a lot more satisfying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear (though he is a very nice sow!).


Interesting comments from everyone else too :)
 
Haha, yes MP, the warmbloods do tend to like micro management - the riders I've seen get the best out of them performance wise (no idea if it actually made them nice to ride generally though), are riders with a very direct, crystal clear approach.
 
blitznbobs said:
Having trained both I would say a cob is easier to train to the lower levels but struggles physically at the higher levels to get things like extension and tempo changes ... they just don’t have the natural athleticism that the warmbloods do... .
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Totally agree with this. Theres a ton of gorgeous cobs at the lowel levels in dressage ireland here, but they all stop at medium level, you never see them in the higher levels. I think they are much easily to train at prelim and novice as they have a natural rhythm and a bit of an engine behind. But they lack the athleticism, cadence and suspension in the paces that the more custom built types have. I love seeing cobs at the national championships, but they just disappear at a certain level in the classes.

There was a demo here with judy reynolds and one of the examples of a higher level horse was an irish draught. the horse was foot perfect it its test, relaxed, and you could see it was trying its heart out. When it finished its demo part, had done its half passes and pirouettes in a lovely calm way, there was a debate how it would never score good marks or be truly competitive because it lacked the flash and presence of the flashier warmbloods. It really made an impact on me about how you can be trying to fit a square block in a round hole with a horse who isn't built for the job. And it seemed really sad that a horse who had such a lovely partnership with its owner, a very workmanlike attitude and was foot perfect, would still keep getting average grades and be constantly be beaten by the flashier types.

I love eventing and i enjoy taking cheap horses up as high as I can get them. But it's really sunk into me that if you want to be truly, truly competitive at all you need an animal thats built for the job.
 
It depends what sort of rider/trainer you are and what you're training for. If dressage arguably a WB would be easier as they are purpose bred for it so already move uphill etc. whereas a cob might not. But for me I know I would struggle with a WB. I couldn't sit that fabulous movement and couldn't micro manage them as they like to be (lol). I'd rather have a sane and steady cob with a good and willing temperament than a warmblood with all the flashy movement in the world, but that's just because I'm not a good enough rider yet.
(The key word being yet because it would certainly be nice to be that good one day lol. :) )
 
re cobs above medium, or lack thereof.
Most *people* stop at medium, anyway IMO. teaching flying changes can be difficult and I think there's a belief with lots of trainers that the canter must be 100% perfect before starting the changes which immediately limits people and can make it harder to get the changes later as horses become almost over-obedient to counter canter. I have been on the receiving end of this school of thought and it was basically a handbrake on that horse's progression.

With my sec D I started asking for a change as soon as she could canter round the school well enough, so she never lost that inclination to offer one. And so starting changes formally was such a non-event, and there was no barrier to progression.

I do agree Paddi that a very average horse will end up with average scores going up the levels, and that's why they don't appeal to pros. So it's down to the smaller number of amateur riders who aspire to get their average horses up to the higher levels, maybe for sentimental attachment to a horse or a lack of funds. It takes a lot of effort, for sure but I'd still be making that effort even on a mega horse.
And for amateurs there is still a lot of fun to be had, and if you play to the horse's strengths then it can still be an immensely rewarding experience. my D is getting 7.5s for her changes now, so I pick tests with a lot of them in :D pulls the scores up nicely. We've done Area Festivals at every level (PSG this year), regionals up to AM, just been to the Home International riding for my country and numerous other big shows along the way. Yes I'd love to have a fancy shmancy horse but my square peg has been pretty decent in the round hole in the meantime :)
 
Are you asking about temperament, or physical ability?

I suggest that cobs like to know why they are being asked to do something. They are much happier turning on the forehand to open/close a gate than simply to accede to the rider's request in an arena.

Just picking up on MP's point about perfecting one movement before attempting another; I remember as a child at RS and when riding friend's ponies, we did all kinds of movements, such as flying changes, without worrying about perfection, just because the ponies offered. They hadn't been stultified by being endlessly drilled in a 'school'. In those days we didn't have artificial surfaces, so much of our riding was on part of a field or hacking.

Dressage doesn't ask horses to perform unnatural movements, just expects the rider to be able to produce the movements to a particular standard on demand. Anyone who thinks cobs can't do flying changes or more 'haute ecole' movements should have been watching my cob yesterday when she was playing with the Appaloosa after they had been in for 2 days. She has a full mane and tail, full feather and is very straight moving - up, down and sideways! I was glad I wasn't sitting on her!

OP, your remark about your Clydex shifting you across made me laugh, I had a full Clyde mare who definitely had a preferred diagonal for trotting. She would *always* throw the rider onto the left. I would change diagonal and then find that she had done it again!
 
Our cob is at a much lower level than a lot of previous posters.

He’s been brilliant at intro and prelim and just started novice, gaining 69% in his first test.

He’s regularly getting 70% at prelim level. He’s easy in that he’s fairly chilled so we never have naughty moments out and about. He’s very rhythmical too. So even when very novice son first started taking him out at intro and prelim level he would do very well, beating adult riders on much flashier looking horses as he was accurate, obedient and the rhythm was there, even if at first they struggled to get a consistent outline etc.

He does have a tendency to throw his weight forward onto his shoulder. He finds the mediums a bit hard, but a big contributing factor to that is the fact that his rider has never really ridden them either. He manages a lot better when ridden by our instructor but it’s not something that comes easily. (In my unbiased opinion he looks blooming amazing when ridden by my instructor!!)

From speaking to his instructors (who compete to a decent level) they think he’ll do well up to elementary level but not much further than that, competitively at least.

He’s been easy as a first dressage pony for a novice in that he’ll always try hard, he won’t ever do anything exuberant or scary at home or away. He’s a great confidence builder and if we wanted to move up the levels with something flashier and more purpose built he’s been a fabulous introduction.
 
Having seen quite a few horses and ponies that are definitely not purpose bred for dressage work very correctly at the higher levels, I think the most important factor is temperament (combined with a rider that knows what they are doing). Natural athleticism and correct conformation provides the movement that gets the high marks but if the horse doesn't have a "good" brain then all it's natural ability can go to waste especially in the hands of the wrong rider.
 
A cob brain in a dumb blood physique would be the perfect horse.

A cob is easy to train, he learns bad as quickly as he learns good and then has the brain power to use it against you ! By the time he has educated his owner and vice versa, his stumpy legs and thick gullet very sadly prevent him from going much further than medium and throughout his correct training the judges will always penalise him for lacking expression and cadence.

Personally I think that is wrong and is the very reason so many of us don't BD affiliate because our normal pleasure type of horse, no matter how educated, cannot successfully compete against the ever growing tide of purpose bred dressage horses with their flamboyant and often incorrect, paces. Plus good old cobby just looks embarrassed and ridiculous covered in bling and bandages.

BD, have possibly recognised this by starting their 'Draught' series but even that excludes the unknown breed types, at least I think it does ?
 
milliepops has touched on this with her lovely Welshie but I feel it's actually the most important part of the process.......

training is training - it's not an easy thing to do as we all know. However it is most enjoyable and fascinating with a horse whose personality and type gels with that of the rider.
So would suggest that the answer is actually 'it depends' :)
 
AdorableAlice said:
A cob brain in a dumb blood physique would be the perfect horse.
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I used to think that if she had been younger when I got her a cross between my Westphalian Kaltblut and one of the Standardbred stud's stallions would have been the perfect horse. So long as we had got her brain along with the SB's lighter physique. The SB's do seem to be rather sensible, non reactive horses
 
Milliepops point about not many people getting passed medium is an interesting one. I think this is the level where it really shows up whether the basics are truly there or not, and if not, this is the level where it all starts to go wrong.

If you haven't got good contact, bend, forward, re-balance, rhythm, impulsion etc all well trained then it begins to show in the lateral work and collected paces.

Up until this point a rider of a warmblood might be able to wing it, the rider of a cob might not even get this far. Getting the basics right in the first place makes life difficult
 
That last sentence doesn't make sense lol

It should say unless you get the basics right from the start it makes life difficult.

Going back and putting the basics in is sometimes necessary
 
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