Is Conformation Always the Most Important Thing?

[texenstar]

Hi Everyone!

Some of you may have seen this post on Facebook recently and it got me thinking...


When looking for a horse to buy a lot of us will assess the horse's conformation and use that assessment to decide on the likeliness of the horse to be successful in competition (i.e dressage or endurance) and to be sound later on in life. However, when I came across this photo:

Link:

https://www.facebook.com/TarrStepsS...7005898804312/511465855691646/?type=3&theater

(I'm not sure how to inbed photos from another site - sorry)


I didn't think for one second that this horse could be a successful competition horse. I know showjumpers can, sometimes, have some interesting conformation but surely this horse will have have soundness issues later on in life?

This is the text that goes with the photo

'So, if you were offered this horse for sale, what would you say?
If you said "no" on the basis of the conformation, you would be losing out. The horse is "Bonzai H" who jumps for Sweden at CSI5* level. He is Baloubet De Rouet x Caletto II and there are five others out of the same mare jumping at a good level. And while the initial impression is off putting, the underpinnings of his structure, his legs and his angles, are good.
So don't judge a book by its cover, or by first impressions. Good horses come in all sorts of shapes and sizes.'

I would appreciate anyone's opinion on the photo or topic Thanks!

 

[eggs]

Fitting a saddle would be interesting.

 

[Kingfisher95]

I know very little about conformation but if I was offered that horse I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Frankly if it doesn't suffer spinal issues at some point I will be shocked.

I suppose if it's going to be your only horse and you can't afford to treat or turn away at points then it would be silly to invest in horses like that. But if you're a professional, taking on something cheap with obvious talent and good breeding will be less of a risk.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Here's an even stranger back. Think he's about 18 and has been a successful horse in his time!

https://firstthoughtequine.wordpress.com/tag/gaynor-ranshaw/

 

[milliepops]

So don't judge a book by its cover, or by first impressions. Good horses come in all sorts of shapes and sizes.'

^^ this I agree with 100% but I think this thread will split opinion
That back looks like it would be awkward to fit a saddle to but if the horse can perform then..handsome is as handsome does. He won't be a show horse, but then he doesn't need to be.

As a child, my fave horse in the world was a connie x TB bred by my then YO. He had the back end of a coat stand, and the front end of a show pony, sharks fin wither and poker straight legs...but he was a successful advanced eventer because he had a fabulous brain and a big big heart.

I have 2 that started out as ugly ducklings and I wouldn't part with them for anything. Though I have found some things that appear to be bad conformation can actually be improved with work, things not quite so dramatic as the horse in that post. I think you have to be able to look beyond first impressions if you are shopping on a budget and can't afford to be picky :wink3:

My old mare was very upside down, verging on ewe necked when I had her - looked great with a long back and generally weak! She has a good topline now so I would overlook something similar in the future provided the neck was stuck onto the body in a reasonable way
My sec D was really pigeon toed when I took her on and had a funky dishing movement. Now she's almost completely straight -all that's happened is good regular shoeing and loads and loads of work to strengthen her up.

 

[nikkimariet]

I stand by my original comment; for dressage, no, I wouldn't buy that horse.

 

[Antw23uk]

If its got a pulse and hacks out alone then it's got my vote

 

[ihatework]

Thing is - it depends on who's doing the buying, the intended job and the expectations of the horse.

Personally no I would not buy that horse. For the disciplines I do it would not be suitable. Saddling would be interesting.

It's bred to SJ. It comes from a successful family line of SJers. So this horse has lived up to its genetic potential. I only skim read the article but it would be interesting to know at what age it was sold (if at all) and I'd also be interested to know price.

Thing is, when you have seen what's involved in top level sport in terms of veterinary care (even on the well put together ones) then you start to understand that 'if it can jump' the running costs are pretty much irrelevant in that kind of circle.

 

[Cortez]

Both of the links to pictures show old horses with significant sway backs which most likely did not start out that way. If they were young horses then no, I certainly wouldn't buy them, but having ridden some oldies with this kind of fault I can say that it didn't stop them from continuing to perform.

Conformation is a guide, not a rule book, so it doesn't always follow that a horse with a particular conformation issue will definitely be affected (this annoys some people . Perhaps one of the reasons that show horses seldom excell in other areas. There are many competition horses out there with atrocious shapes, but if you look at the whole horse it is often strong in the places that really matter. There are certain things that are deal-breakers for me (neck placement and hind end angles, usually), and a whole bunch of things that I can live with if everything else is harmonious.

 

[milliepops]

Both of the links to pictures show old horses with significant sway backs which most likely did not start out that way. If they were young horses then no, I certainly wouldn't buy them, but having ridden some oldies with this kind of fault I can say that it didn't stop them from continuing to perform.

The SJer is 17 and still jumping GPs so not that old... and the horse posted by FW apparently came out of the womb like that

 

[smja]

Depends on your budget and what you want the horse for. For any discipline, you've got to weigh up physical ability and mental attributes. There's no point in buying something with a physical disadvantage unless its mental attitude makes up for it and there's no point buying something that can jump the moon if it's so spooky you won't get it within 50 yards of a fence.

 

[Orangehorse]

There was a very famous picture of a horse with even more extraordinary conformation that was trained in High School Dressage, rather to prove a point I think.

No I would not buy that horse, but if you happened to own it and no one would buy it you might find that it could beat the world. As someone else said "handsome is what hansome does" there are plenty of horses with poor conformation that have been brilliant competitions horses, but the fact is that over the centuries there has come to be accepted what is "good conformation" and there is generally a reason for it.

In the days when you could go round the stables at Badminton on the dressage days we were astonished at some of the poor conformation of the horses there, but that was in the days when they retired as teens and generally horses were not purpose bred.

 

[Cortez]

17 is old for a competition horse, and yes, I have seen foals with severe spinal lordosis that went on to be ridden leisure horses. I personally wouldn't buy a young horse with a sway back, but then I also wouldn't buy a horse with a low neck, long pasterns, a straight hind leg or sweet itch or any other PITA condition. If the horse is performing well, then obviously it doesn't have a problem. Conformation is VERY important, or should I say knowledge of conformation is, that way you should be aware of potential problems that are more likely to occur, but may not.

The most perfectly formed horse in the world can turn out to be useless at one thing or another, so is it the MOST important thing? It is one of them.

 

[ihatework]

In the days when you could go round the stables at Badminton on the dressage days we were astonished at some of the poor conformation of the horses there, but that was in the days when they retired as teens and generally horses were not purpose bred.

Honestly, for the most part, you will still see a good proportion of 4* that meet those criteria!

 

[FfionWinnie]

I've got a sheep with this issue. I'm going to eat her because it's getting worse and she isn't much of a jumper machine (self shedder).

As for horses. While I wouldn't go looking for one like that (particularly as they are both grey!) if I was offered a horse which was doing the job I wanted it to do and had been doing it successfully for a long time then I would consider it.

What I do wonder is why these two lads even got a chance in the first place. You could imagine seeing what you had bred and writing it off straight away. Be interesting to hear how they were able to show they weren't held back by it particularly when the first through is going to be you'll never get a saddle on that, so what else is it going to do other than potentially be a really large lawnmower which is also going to need gelding so the costs are stacking up before you consider anything else. Good on them for giving the horses successful and useful lives.

 

[milliepops]

No I would not buy that horse, but if you happened to own it and no one would buy it you might find that it could beat the world.

That's exactly what happened to the eventer i loved as a child, he was for sale as a youngster but didn't pass the vet. What a lucky chain of events for his owner, because she ended up having a great deal of fun and success as a result.

Just googled some videos of Bonzai H and for me, his movement and technique looks pretty good/standard esp compared to some other top SJers - who probably look a lot more normal untacked but have lateral canters and lots of buckaroos... I agree you wouldn't seek out a horse that was built like that but he can clearly do the job chosen for him.

 

[ester]

I think it makes an interesting point, and as to whether he is a random freak for doing so well in spite of it or not, and how much vet care keeps him going. I think TS responded to say that she didn't think he had anything special saddlewise just padding.

 

[milliepops]

What I do wonder is why these two lads even got a chance in the first place.

^ agree. I had a quick look but there's not much written in English about Bonzai H but google translate managed to tell me that the rider tends to buy youngstock and keep them long term... Dunno if that's the case with this horse but if so then you'd guess that someone had done something with him as a young horse to show that he was worth bothering with.

 

[Cortez]

^ agree. I had a quick look but there's not much written in English about Bonzai H but google translate managed to tell me that the rider tends to buy youngstock and keep them long term... Dunno if that's the case with this horse but if so then you'd guess that someone had done something with him as a young horse to show that he was worth bothering with.

Sway backs are not always evident in young horses, they can develop over time.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Sway backs are not always evident in young horses, they can develop over time.

The one I posted at least, was born like that.

 

[Damnation]

I knew a horse who had a back like that.

He did his PSG at 18!

He passed aged 24 due to colic, he didn't have back problems but he was very carefully built up, worked, managed with regular physio/chiro visits and a custom made saddle.

 

[rara007]

I don't think it's ever the most important thing?

 

[Willow1306]

I think a lot of horses perform in spite of poor conformation, but I don't see that as a positive thing. Horses would do themselves a favour not to be so stoic much of the time.

 

[only_me]

Tarrstepts is on HHO, or was at least

I also stand by my comment on the post, conformation is important as it is the basic framework of a horse. The closer to perfect the longer it should stay sound, and then whatever ideal you want for its job. That doesn't mean a horse with poor confo can't do a job - and some are exceptionally talented as this one is. Or in fact those with good confo will stay sound or be talented. But by that conformation alone it is not suitable for dressage high level, it's body wouldn't allow a correct outline and onto the bit. To achieve anything near correct would take years and years of work, and even still you are battling against nature. For showjumping however, an outline and working on bit isn't necessary, a horse that jumps is more important. Plus TS herself says horse is jumped in a hackamore, which points to my previous point where it is unable to carry itself into true contact but prefers a high head carriage, as rightly so is built to have one!

For dressage, no I wouldn't buy that horse. For jumping, possibly, based on how it jumped. Eventing I don't think it would stand up to the workload and galloping required.

Don't forget it will have taken lots of money, patience and time for that horse to get to where it is, potentially longer than other horses to get to same level (I don't know about it's career). Also don't forget you don't breed to get a horse with confo like that - you breed to get ideal as they are more likely to be useful. This horse is not ideal but has done the job, many are like him. If you are prepared to work with the conformation then Great, find a job that suits and you reduce risk of injury. Try to work against his conformation and force horse into a job that doesn't suit him (i.e. Dressage) then you will increase risk of injury.

One thing is for sure, I definitely wouldn't be attempting to ride him bareback

 

[stormox]

I wonder what sort of ride would a horse like that give? Im not sure Id want to ride it,you'd feel you were slipping backwards.....

 

[SpringArising]

I had a horse with truly the worst legs ever. She was splayed badly at the front and cow-hocked and splayed and dished awfully behind. I had her from 16-24 and she was not lame once. She's 32 now and is still being ridden.

 

[Goldenstar]

There are always exceptions that prove the rule .

 

[Cortez]

I wonder what sort of ride would a horse like that give? Im not sure Id want to ride it,you'd feel you were slipping backwards.....

Swaybacked horses are famously EXTREMELY comfortable to ride, and having ridden a couple I can a confirm that. American Saddlebreds, which are ridden with very high head carriage (and hollow backs) are very prone to sway backs, I have ridden a few elderly ex show horses that seemed as happy as could be. Still wouldn't buy one.

 

[AdorableAlice]

As to be expected from me, the answer is yes, although I would top it with temperament for a leisure horse.

Lets face it, they bust without good reason, so breed the best from the best and hope for good conformation to see them through a healthy and useful life.

 

[Cortez]

Breed the best to the best and hope for the best: still doesn't always work....(although the converse is certainly a recipe for disaster).