Is H&H condoning this? This is not a racehorse!

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muff747 said:
Obviously because they don't have to keep it and feed it until it is properly mature when it would have a better chance of staying sound and healthy.
Why wait another two years when they can get the money now:(
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I've heard that one before and also... "Get it backed before it gets too big and strong" :eek:

Yes, there is a cultural problem here I think, from sport to home breds and also a mistaken belief that horses are big strong animals and if they are big enough and look strong enough they are strong enough. :(

For me it's not just the physical stresses put on them so young but also the mental stress.
 
Holly Hocks said:
OP - the e-mail address of the seller is on there - you could e-mail her and ask her to confirm whether the information re the age is correct - it could be a slip of the finger and that although the pony is actually 3 in age, it is actually rising 4 and they have put "rising 3" in error - there is a massive difference between rising 3 and rising 4 - mine will be 4 in May and is hacking out at weekends in walk for 30 minutes, but i would not have done this 12 months ago - it really could be a slip of the fingers on the advert...
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Even if it is rising 4 - it has done walk trot and canter in the school (circles no doubt) and is shod in front. The feet carry on growing as the body matures - the shoes act like a vice and stop the feet maturing so they are able to carry the weight of the mature body - hence why many horses end up with crappy weak hooves with contracted heels!
 
I dont really understand why racehorses have to be compared to a rather under nourished 3 or 4 year old pony. Forget comparing as it has no relevance at all. Oh and for what its worth, I have a racehorse that was broken as a 2 year old, raced until he was 12 and as sound as a pound at 18.
 
amandap said:
I've heard that one before and also... "Get it backed before it gets too big and strong" :eek:

Yes, there is a cultural problem here I think, from sport to home breds and also a mistaken belief that horses are big strong animals and if they are big enough and look strong enough they are strong enough. :(

For me it's not just the physical stresses put on them so young but also the mental stress.
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This /\/\/\/\/\ exactly
 
justabob said:
I dont really understand why racehorses have to be compared to a rather under nourished 3 or 4 year old pony. Forget comparing as it has no relevance at all. Oh and for what its worth, I have a racehorse that was broken as a 2 year old, raced until he was 12 and as sound as a pound at 18.
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The comparison is purely about age and maturity of horses. No way is any 1 1/2 - 2 year old a mature horse no matter how well it is deemed to be fed and looked after.

ps. One positive for racehorses is grooms and Jockeys are generally lightweights.
 
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justabob said:
I dont really understand why racehorses have to be compared to a rather under nourished 3 or 4 year old pony. Forget comparing as it has no relevance at all. Oh and for what its worth, I have a racehorse that was broken as a 2 year old, raced until he was 12 and as sound as a pound at 18.
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My title says "This is not a racehorse" so why has it been broken and done all that by the time it is rising 3?
I am very unhappy about the racing industry for using the horse to make vast amounts of money as soon as possible, mostly at the expense of the later health of the horses - your horse is one of the lucky ones!
 
justabob said:
I dont really understand why racehorses have to be compared to a rather under nourished 3 or 4 year old pony. Forget comparing as it has no relevance at all. Oh and for what its worth, I have a racehorse that was broken as a 2 year old, raced until he was 12 and as sound as a pound at 18.
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I own loads of horses who were backed at 2 and 3 years old who have never had lame days in their lives and are still going strong many many years later. I have some in their 20s and 30s and there's nothing at all wrong with them, never has been. None of them have arthritis either and they are all still ridden.
 
I work at a western yard and we start youngsters between 2 and 3, typically the Quarter horse youngsters are better built at a younger age than TB types, but we literally put a good start on them, so get them doing some basic groundwork (lateral movements) all bitless and progress to sitting on them and getting some basic ridden work done then they usually have some time out, but typically the youngsters are ridden for short periods.

When we get older horses to start they can be difficult so personally I think doing some basic work with a young horse is beneficial, even if they are not to be ridden.

The particular horse in the advert is very small for a TBxID at 14hh and it doesn't look physically mature in my opinion and to have had children sat on it is very irresponsible, the horse is obviously very willing for there to have not been any accidents.

I agree that this particular horse has done too much and I suspect the advert is correct in that it is rising 3.

My youngster is rising 4 and has had a slow start, he has just started hacking but has been schooled over the last 4 months in pressure and release and just gaining control over his body, I do not feel this has done him any harm, in fact he seems to enjoy having a job.
 
Spring Feather said:
None of them have arthritis either and they are all still ridden.
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With respect SF, have you had them all x-rayed? I doubt very much that none of them have arthritis by the time they are 20, the same way a human will be lucky to not have any arthritis by the age of 40 or 50.
Some people don't "see" anything wrong with their horses when others are cringing seeing the way their horses move.
I am not saying you are one of those people, but if your horses have all stayed that well until their 30's, you could make a fortune selling your methods of caring for them. Please share how you look after them:)
 
muff747 said:
Disgraceful abuse of a dumb animal I say:(
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Dumb animal?

Interesting choice of words on a thread about the possible cruel practice of backing a rising 3yr old.

FWIW, it is perfectly possible for a horse to break down at 10, having been wrapped in cotton wool since age 6. What they have done with that pony is unlikely to have 'broken' it and that price is likely to deter the type of people that are likely to flog it into the ground.

It's a well looked after pony (from the pic) - as others have said, not what most people would do, but there are far worse things that go on and need stopping than backing and riding a rising 3yr old. Which incidently could mean the horse is 2 years and 11 months.
 
Spring Feather said:
I own loads of horses who were backed at 2 and 3 years old who have never had lame days in their lives and are still going strong many many years later. I have some in their 20s and 30s and there's nothing at all wrong with them, never has been. None of them have arthritis either and they are all still ridden.
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Thank you SF. I have to admit that the constant banging on about the age of TBs being started does annoy me. Tell that to Frankel.
 
muff747 said:
With respect SF, have you had them all x-rayed? I doubt very much that none of them have arthritis by the time they are 20, the same way a human will be lucky to not have any arthritis by the age of 40 or 50.
Some people don't "see" anything wrong with their horses when others are cringing seeing the way their horses move.
I am not saying you are one of those people, but if your horses have all stayed that well until their 30's, you could make a fortune selling your methods of caring for them. Please share how you look after them:)
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You're right. I'm not one of those people. And no they don't have any arthritis. My horses live out 24/7, have never worn shoes and are fed correctly. No secret I'm sorry to say, just very good management.
 
Debz87 said:
I work at a western yard and we start youngsters between 2 and 3, typically the Quarter horse youngsters are better built at a younger age than TB types, but we literally put a good start on them, so get them doing some basic groundwork (lateral movements) all bitless and progress to sitting on them and getting some basic ridden work done then they usually have some time out, but typically the youngsters are ridden for short periods.

When we get older horses to start they can be difficult so personally I think doing some basic work with a young horse is beneficial, even if they are not to be ridden.

The particular horse in the advert is very small for a TBxID at 14hh and it doesn't look physically mature in my opinion and to have had children sat on it is very irresponsible, the horse is obviously very willing for there to have not been any accidents.

I agree that this particular horse has done too much and I suspect the advert is correct in that it is rising 3.

My youngster is rising 4 and has had a slow start, he has just started hacking but has been schooled over the last 4 months in pressure and release and just gaining control over his body, I do not feel this has done him any harm, in fact he seems to enjoy having a job.
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Obviously this is the responsible way to start a horse, very slowly and little and often and lots of ground work - I've no problems with this - but this little pony has done lots more than yours and looks like a baby:(
 
muff747 said:
Obviously this is the responsible way to start a horse, very slowly and little and often and lots of ground work - I've no problems with this - but this little pony has done lots more than yours and looks like a baby:(
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Has it though? All of that 'work' could've been done once, over a period of weeks, or, like Debz87 over a space of a year - which you seem to agree with?
 
justabob said:
Thank you SF. I have to admit that the constant banging on about the age of TBs being started does annoy me. Tell that to Frankel.
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There are always going to be people who disagree with it (myself included), however I have never 'banged on' about it. I don't see why people shouldn't be allowed to express their opinion on it.

I genuinely do not agree with the idea that it makes them stronger once they're fully matured, my ex flat horse had raced 7 times before he was 3, has arthritis in one hock and kissing spines. Whether that's in any way related to his start in life is arguable at best however I personally don't agree with the mental strain they are put under at such a young age either, particularly in the 'mainstream' race yards such as the one mine came from.

Although i'm veering off topic here, and there are plenty of worse things happening in the world than thoroughbreds racing at rising two years old.
 
Nugget La Poneh said:
Has it though? All of that 'work' could've been done once, over a period of weeks, or, like Debz87 over a space of a year - which you seem to agree with?
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Many 2 and 3 year olds over here are backed and would not be classed as well broken until they'd been riding out for about a year. Young horses are normally not rushed here, unlike in the UK where the moment they turn 3 or 4 years old they are classed as broken after 4 to 6 weeks under saddle. Doing it over a year, imo, is far better taking it slowly. I'd never put a horse of mine through being broken in English style. That's fine for whoever wants to do it, it's just not for me.
 
Nugget La Poneh said:
Dumb animal?

Interesting choice of words on a thread about the possible cruel practice of backing a rising 3yr old. Sorry, I don't understand this:confused:

FWIW, it is perfectly possible for a horse to break down at 10, having been wrapped in cotton wool since age 6. What they have done with that pony is unlikely to have 'broken' it and that price is likely to deter the type of people that are likely to flog it into the ground. But it's much more likely if it has been ridden to that extent and shod at such an early stage in it's body's growing years

It's a well looked after pony (from the pic) - as others have said, not what most people would do, but there are far worse things that go on and need stopping than backing and riding a rising 3yr old. Which incidently could mean the horse is 2 years and 11 months.
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But I'm debating this advert and the apparently normal practice of starting them too early so they can sell them on and make money before they begin to cost them money to feed etc. And it's still too young at 2y 11m or even 3.5 if they look that under developed:(
 
Oh for goodness sake, there is far more out there to get affronted about, rather than an over priced and ficticious pedegreed pony. In fact I would rather buy that pony over some that are advertised. Turn it away for the summer and I bet it will be perfect!
 
Spring Feather said:
Many 2 and 3 year olds over here are backed and would not be classed as well broken until they'd been riding out for about a year. Young horses are normally not rushed here, unlike in the UK where the moment they turn 3 or 4 years old they are classed as broken after 4 to 6 weeks under saddle. Doing it over a year, imo, is far better taking it slowly. I'd never put a horse of mine through being broken in English style. That's fine for whoever wants to do it, it's just not for me.
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I don't disagree, but the the OP had an issue with the age, and even doing it slowly from age 2 starting with groundwork and working up would still put it in the same age bracket.

Without speaking to the owner of the pony, none of us know if it has been regularly ridden in all three paces, worked over poles (which could just mean walked over trot poles) and regularyl ridden by children, hacked out etc. Could've all been once in the space of a week - or slowly from age 2
 
How do you know it hasn't just had a quick canter behind another horse out on a calm hack round the block? Doesn't say it has been cantered round school and light kids having a little walk and maybe trot in a school would be ok if supervised. It may not be for everyone but at least it has a chance of going to someone as a family pony rather than ending up as meat like so many are at the moment.
 
I know there are far worse things happening to horses, but I just happened to see this ad when I was checking out posts on H&H forum, I thou:(ght it was wrong. And to me, just because there are worse things going on doesn't make this ok..
 
muff747 said:
But it's much more likely if it has been ridden to that extent and shod at such an early stage in it's body's growing years(
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muff747 said:
But I'm debating this advert and the apparently normal practice of starting them too early so they can sell them on and make money before they begin to cost them money to feed etc. And it's still too young at 2y 11m or even 3.5 if they look that under developed:(
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You are making some big presumptions about the pony, the backing process it has had and the owners.

Pony is not in poor condition, not well defined in muscle terms or top line which frankly would be more of a concern for me at that age.

Apparently this horse is 3 years old - working at Novice. That, in my view, is not healthy or condusive to a long working life.

*not completely convinced the age is correct. Or ad genuine. But minor detail
 
muff747 said:
I know there are far worse things happening to horses, but I just happened to see this ad when I was checking out posts on H&H forum, I thou:(ght it was wrong. And to me, just because there are worse things going on doesn't make this ok..
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Couldn't agree more just because it happens doesn't make it right
 
Girlracer said:
There are always going to be people who disagree with it (myself included), however I have never 'banged on' about it. I don't see why people shouldn't be allowed to express their opinion on it.

I genuinely do not agree with the idea that it makes them stronger once they're fully matured, my ex flat horse had raced 7 times before he was 3, has arthritis in one hock and kissing spines. Whether that's in any way related to his start in life is arguable at best however I personally don't agree with the mental strain they are put under at such a young age either, particularly in the 'mainstream' race yards such as the one mine came from.

Although i'm veering off topic here, and there are plenty of worse things happening in the world than thoroughbreds racing at rising two years old.
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I have always had a lot of time for you GR, and still do. But there are many horses that suffer from the problems that you have described that have not been bred to race, have been broken at 4yrs old, the perfect age. They can still have emotional, conformation, and following issues from bad management and poor nutrition. I think that the racing industry takes an awful lot of flack, but in my mind there is far worse out there out of the racing world.
 
Billabongchick said:
How do you know it hasn't just had a quick canter behind another horse out on a calm hack round the block? Doesn't say it has been cantered round school and light kids having a little walk and maybe trot in a school would be ok if supervised. It may not be for everyone but at least it has a chance of going to someone as a family pony rather than ending up as meat like so many are at the moment.
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Well that's another debate -about indescriminate breeding.

There have been threads on here about novice owners spoiling young horses because they think they are experienced enough.
I know several horses /ponies owned by friends that was sold to them as family horses but are actually rearers and they end up being a problem horse and no-one understands them enough to help improve them so they get passed around from pillar to post, and then end up as meat.
Maybe if respectable magazines like H&H had a rule that no horse /pony should be advertised as broken in under a certain age. Maybe that would deter novice people breeding horses and "breaking" them in at 2-3 yo .
 
ive changd my views a lot since having a youngster tbh as its a massive learning curve


ive not got an issue with SITTING on a rising 3 year old.... literally leaning/sitting not riding (big difference)!

but thats my personal preference!

i plan to long rein my rising 3 year old until shes 3.5 and then start breaking her in properly....

different people - different methods............ but the picture in the ad is rather awful :(
 
Spring Feather said:
Many 2 and 3 year olds over here are backed and would not be classed as well broken until they'd been riding out for about a year. Young horses are normally not rushed here, unlike in the UK where the moment they turn 3 or 4 years old they are classed as broken after 4 to 6 weeks under saddle. Doing it over a year, imo, is far better taking it slowly. I'd never put a horse of mine through being broken in English style. That's fine for whoever wants to do it, it's just not for me.
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Leaving age aside I do agree young horses can be rushed far too quickly both physically and mentally. I too believe slow and steady is better but then I haven't started or brought any youngsters on.
Are horses routinely sent away for breaking/starting in USA?
 
I'm struggling to see how a commercial publication which has to make a profit for its shareholders could possibly justify turning down adverts for horses and ponies which are perfectly healthy and with which nothing even approaching being illegal has been done.

In fact, I think they would leave themselves open to being negligent in their duty to their shareholders if they did.

H&H magazine and online is not a charity.
 
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