Is having a horse in the box on rubber matting without bedding cruel?

The main problems would be the horse spalshing him/her self when peeing, plus getting filthy from not having pee soaked up. There is also a risk of it causing lung problems from the amonia as non of it owuld be soaked up by bedding, as well as foot problems from being stood in pee and poop.
You'd be better off with a thin sprinkling of dust free shavings to soak up anything.
 
So you give the horse no bed due to COPD but you allow rugs to be used to soak up the wee, thus forcing your horse to breathe in ammonia 24/7. What affect on a horse lungs do you think ammonia has?


Also what affect does wee and poo have on the waterproof properties of rugs? Maybe stable rugs are made of washable material for a reason.

What planet are these people on?
 
I'd be more concerned about injuries/rubs etc from lying/rolling on just rubber matting than smelly rugs! I think its bad management and totally different scenario to being in the field where they can lie/roll in a larger space and not on their own mess!
 
I always understood that matting was designed to be used without bedding as well :confused: Not that I use it myself though (not sure if I want to - they cost a lot of money if you're just going to cover them up with straw or shavings, which saves neither time nor money) and our YO discourages the use of mats though you can have them if you want.

I get criticised a lot because Sham's bed's about a foot deep (when fresh) and it covers two thirds of the stable. It's a balancing act though because too little she won't lie down and too much just gets trashed. They also think I'm odd because I take the bed up every day to dry the floor.

The criticism comes from people who have banks halfway up the wall and beds right up to the door so deep the poor horse can't walk across its bedroom - now I think THAT'S odd!

Each to his own I say!
 
Tiffany said:
A lot of horses won't pee on a hard surface so I think a little bedding is better than nothing
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Mine's like that, he'll hold on as long as he can and once when I put him briefly in a box with the bed swept back into high banks I found him halfway up the wall balancing on the banks having a pee.

After a horrendous long journey in the lorry (8 hours) he got off, nearly ran to the stable and had the longest pee I've ever seen a horse have. He won't go on the mats in there either.

Another time he got out and ate all the breakfasts on the yard and on vets advice he was kept with nothing to eat all day. He's allergic to shavings so the yard put him in a rubber matted box for the day. He had eventually to to pee and the floor was wet and had several poos in it. I arrived and found a very put out tb standing at the back of the box trying not to step in the wet bits. When I got there he came to the door to be let out by tiptoeing round the edge keeping his feet dry.

But then I've always said he's a very strange horse.
 
Nothing wrong with it, though I like my horse to have pellets I know folks who use nothing but matting but with a special powder you get - looks like talc , you sprinkle down to soak up pee and keep things fresh , you just sweep it up in morning

I'm not sure name but could find out , pm me if you want the details
 
cptrayes said:
I challenge everyone who thinks it's OK to stable a horse for more than a few hours a day on rubber with no bed to put a bed 4 inches deep in the draughtiest, nastiest quarter of the stable and then watch what their horse actually wants.

Please don't kid yourselves. Unless your horse has serious wind issues (and why then is it in at all??) you are doing this entirely to save your own time and your own money. It is very unlikely to be what your horse would choose.
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Have to say that I agree with this too.

I have rubber mats in my stables purely because my mare digs and rolls and I was always worried before we had mats, that she would scrape a hock or something. I also like the extra insulation from mats. Their beds are slightly lower than they would be without mats ,but are still well over fetlock deep (straw).

I have had a pony in a 14' box with only half the box bedded, and my mare in a foaling box that was half bed half bare mat - both chose to sleep, pee and poop on the bedding. Yes a horse will sleep on bare earth, but heck they will sleep on bare concrete if they haven't a choice..
 
Yuck!
As someone else pointed out, why on earth would you want your horse to be stood or worse still have to lay in it's own muck/urine!
I've had experience of this sort of management when mats first came out & I ran a livery yard. Owners all thought it was 'the new way and rushed out and bought mats. It was VILE! They stank, their rugs stank, yuck.
Thankfully they all went back to having beds PDQ!
 
Continued from above...
I have my stables fully matted & use a half bed of pellets. Quick, easy & best of all absolutely no seepage or smell. Even works for my NF who has breathing issues on other systems/beddings.
 
I'm with cptrayes too.
The breathing difficulty argument doesn't wash with me. The stench of ammonia is far more harmful than a bit of aubiose or similar. And neither does the argument that they lie on hard ground in a field in summer. In a field, however dry & hard, I've noticed they don't necessarily choose a dead flat place, they all seem to find patches that suit them.
 
Everyone refers to the 'urine stench' - do people never use any spray disinfectant or 'smell calmer' in their stables?

I have a hand sprayer I use daily on the floor - it has either Biotal or a Calm It spray in it or other appropriate odour neutralising stuff. It doesn't matter if you use bedding or not - horse urine is horse urine and smells the same. It is just part of my daily routine.
 
Of course you can get rid of the smell. But unlike with bedding when you only get the urine smell when you lift it, the horse is stood breathing it in all night.
 
Littlelegs said:
I'm with cptrayes too.
The breathing difficulty argument doesn't wash with me. The stench of ammonia is far more harmful than a bit of aubiose or similar. And neither does the argument that they lie on hard ground in a field in summer. In a field, however dry & hard, I've noticed they don't necessarily choose a dead flat place, they all seem to find patches that suit them.
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Yup, I see that too. They either lie on a slope, find a slight hollow or if there isn't one they dig one. I think it takes weight off their ribcage. The last place they would choose to lie down would be dead flat. I have a flat, and relatively soft, earth floor in my barn and still they dig "forms" for themselves to sleep in.

I love the other argument that some people use that their horses don't smell because they don't lie down! I have a friend whose geldings would lie in their own pee, but then she replaced them with mares who had more sense and totally refused to lie down on rubber with a smattering of bed. She's been forced to give them proper beds. I have read that horses that never lie down apparently don't get proper sleep and can go narcoleptic or very bad tempered.
 
Anyone who's ever put a horse in a stable for brief time with the bedding thrown up (eg straw bed just in bankings & bare floor) must have noticed most horses will bed it down themselves, not just to wee but if they want to lie down. At the very least, they push their hinds into the banking to wee. Which to me proves which they prefer.
 
Littlelegs said:
Anyone who's ever put a horse in a stable for brief time with the bedding thrown up (eg straw bed just in bankings & bare floor) must have noticed most horses will bed it down themselves, not just to wee but if they want to lie down. At the very least, they push their hinds into the banking to wee. Which to me proves which they prefer.
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That's why every time this topic comes up I challenge mat-users to bed the mankiest quarter of the stable and watch what their horse tells them clearly that they want.

There was a poster earlier on whose pony didn't lie in the tiny bit of bed they gave it, but pood on the edge and then laid in the poo. I wonder if they considered the possibility that the pony wouldn't lie too close to a wall for fear of getting cast, but still wanted to lie on something soft, so chose it's own poo? I mean, when did you ever see a horse in a decent size field head for a pile of poo to lie on???

But people who want to save time and money seem to go to considerable lengths to convince themselves that it's OK to bed horses on half an inch of dense rubber on top of concrete :(
 
Not cruel as such, but not something I would do. Mine gets a half straw bed on top of his mats, so nice and cosy, with the benefit of being quicker and easier to muck out (he's dirty!) whilst still being thinner than my straw bed on concrete used to be.

Ours rarely lie on the flat when out in the field, but then if they could find a completely flat spot, I'd give them a prize lol :D
 
When i have seen well designed stables with rubber matting the urine drains through the mats and into a drain and you can hose both the tops of the mats and underneath so they aren't smelly at all. I think a lot of the problems are from the mats being put into unsuitable stables.
 
Yep cptrayes, I've noticed that with every issue surrounding management, those who practice things most of us wouldn't agree with (keeping horses entirely isolated from other equines, 24/7 stabling without real work, far too small stables etc) always conveniently own the extremely rare horse that prefers that routine. What a coincidence.
 
:rolleyes:
cptrayes said:
That's why every time this topic comes up I challenge mat-users to bed the mankiest quarter of the stable and watch what their horse tells them clearly that they want.


CP you do seem to challenge people on variety subjects including barefoot. If they do things different to what you think or practice. people don't have to explain or justify their day to day routines and why they do things certain ways
There was a poster earlier on whose pony didn't lie in the tiny bit of bed they gave it, but pood on the edge and then laid in the poo. I wonder if they considered the possibility that the pony wouldn't lie too close to a wall for fear of getting cast, but still wanted to lie on something soft, so chose it's own poo? I mean, when did you ever see a horse in a decent size field head for a pile of poo to lie on???
As usual your referring to me. :rolleyes: FYI horses don't think DURRRR I am going to get cast if I lie to close to the wall. If they did there would be horses out there getting cast daily.
But people who want to save time and money seem to go to considerable lengths to convince themselves that it's OK to bed horses on half an inch of dense rubber on top of concrete :(
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A rubber mat is a darn site more comfortable that the hard frosty muddy field are they not?
Horses will lie in poo what ever size the stable or how ever many times you skip out. Or there would not be stain removing shampoos. How ever much bedding you put in !!!!
My ponies stable is BONE dry she pees at the back and it drains out into the drain. So its neither wet or smelly.

FYI neither money or convenience is why my pony just has a rubber bed. Its been this way 4 years and will continue to be like this.

I am not justifying myself anymore.


Actually my gelding lies in foo and uses it to put his head on he is in a 15by 14 stable as mentioned above He chooses to lie in poo
every day

CP you do seem to change people on variety subjects including barefoot. If they do things different to what you think or practice.

Some people do things different, we do not have to explain why or justify our choices.
 
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But people who want to save time and money seem to go to considerable lengths to convince themselves that it's OK to bed horses on half an inch of dense rubber on top of concrete
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ROTFL

1. I do not have to convince myself of anything neither do my liveries why they choose this method of just rubber for certain horses.

2. It makes no difference to time anyway with my pony as done it both ways.
3.money is NEVER an issue with me or hubby as we have plenty to dish around (And no sorry don't know anyone well enough here to give any out :D)

But mum and Dad get a good gift of 4 figures from us every month when I visit

Gloi said:
When i have seen well designed stables with rubber matting the urine drains through the mats and into a drain and you can hose both the tops of the mats and underneath so they aren't smelly at all. I think a lot of the problems are from the mats being put into unsuitable stables.
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Thankyou Gloi exactly:):)


Since certain people (not mentioning names) do not know my stable / set up or drainage.etc etc etc

In future . I will state my point and leave it, not get dragged into some petty squabble and me trying to justify my actions as usual.
When I went to a rubber mat talk before I coughed up 11 plus stables to be matted. with a company I cannot mention they went into full details of care - mucking out- expansion- position's. So I will adhere to their information. I will not contribute to this thread anymore the OP has left so will I , my ways are explained - but rest assured *They will go on about it*:)

Good luck with what you choose OP.
 
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Leviathan said:
:rolleyes:

A rubber mat is a darn site more comfortable that the hard frosty muddy field are they not?
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No, we have already established this. Horses like to lie in hollows or on a slope, not on a perfectly flat surface. A frozen field with some grass on it and a rubber mat are about the same hardness, depending on how thick the grass cover is.

CP you do seem to change people on variety subjects including barefoot. If they do things different to what you think or practice.
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I think you mean "challenge"? That's called "discussion" Leviathan. It's healthy that people have different points of view. I don't expect to change anyone, I'm just expressing my own point of view.

Some people do things different, we do not have to explain why or justify our choices.
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You don't, but I think you have proved my point with the lengths you have gone to to explain why you think it's OK to bed on rubber mat alone ;)

Your principle argument seems to be that the mat manufacturers told you that it was the right thing to do. It doesn't seem like a good start point to me. The sugar-filled-food companies are forever telling me that their food is good for my horses when it's not.

Like I said already, to find out what your horse would really like, why don't you give it a quarter of a stable bedded and then see what it chooses?
 
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Personally I wouldn't have my horse in a stable with just rubber mats - we have a yard near us where liveries are given mats and a bucket of shavings each day - not my idea of a comfy place for my horse to be. I have rubber mats and he gets a nice thick bed on top of that over half the stable - he lies down on that quite happily and he wont pee on anything other than shavings - I have seen my horse angle himself quite creatively to get to the shavings when his bed was up and all he had was the mats :D He also has mild arthritic changes in his hock and the vet recommends a comfy bed for support

But each to their own - I wouldn't say its cruel but its not ideal
 
Gloi said:
When i have seen well designed stables with rubber matting the urine drains through the mats and into a drain and you can hose both the tops of the mats and underneath so they aren't smelly at all. I think a lot of the problems are from the mats being put into unsuitable stables.
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Agree with this. If you want to go the minimal bedding route then you need the right type of mats and the correct drainage in the stable.

We have Fieldguard M2 mats which have little rubber legs underneath them. This makes them soft to lie on - I know because I have tested it by lying on them myself. The mats are quite small so plenty of joins for any urine to drain through, which is possible because the little rubber legs lift the mats off the floor. A small pee patch of bedding is a good idea to prevent splashing though. Our floors are sloped to a drainage channel outside the stable, so horses are not standing in urine.

However, I have seen some mats that are very thin and hard and are more suitable as an under-bed surface. Likewise the drainage in many stables is not conducive to a minimal bedding set up.
 
I think if the rubber matting is properly sealed and cushioned so that the urine doesn't run underneath and pool and the matting is truly soft enough for the horse to lie down on without discomfort (which includes capped hocks/scraped knees getting up) AND the stable is well enough ventilated for the ammonia not to cause a problem with the horse's lungs then who's to say it's cruel?

I do think it's down to each owner to do what they think is best. We have one livery on our yard who has chosen to remove her mats and build a shavings bed on an earth floor for her COPD-prone horse . . . there are my aforementioned friends and yard neighbours who bed their horses on properly sealed and cushioned rubber matting with a small rectangle of wood pellets and then there's me . . . I inherited a stable with sealed/cushioned rubber matting not only on the floor but halfway up the walls and I still choose to build my boy a deep straw bed. None of us are right . . . we are all doing what we think is best for our horses.

P
 
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People have different standards of management. The mats I have are thick and drain well. They're lovely for dismounting onto when your feet are frozen after riding.
I also use a stable spray to keep the mats fresh but I still put a fluffy straw bed down because research has shown that straw (for horses not compromised by respiratory problems) is preferred.
Horses do not have a choice about being confined, so my part of the bargain, is to make that environment as pleasant and healthy as possible.

Horses sense of smell is much more superior to ours and to leave them in urine/poo stained stable rugs overnight isn't fair.
 
Not cruel, unless you have a horse that won't pee or lie down, standing in for hours at a time. You could say the same for any horse with inadequate bedding though.

My friend put mats down for her horse, they were good quality, expensive, horse (as opposed to cow) mats, designed to be used without bedding. The mats were slippery to start, until the horse had roughed up the surface. She was almost fanatical about keeping them clean, washed the floor out most days and the horse didn't smell any worse than some straw-kept horses. The most obvious smell was rubber!

She lifted the damn things every week to clean underneath and one day she found the underside crawling with maggots :eek: Despite the regular cleaning, some waste had obviously soaked through (as it's meant to with the type of mat) and pooled underneath. Yuk.

That was the last day her horse had no bedding though!

ETA. No injuries. This was a 16hh Cleveland mare, who was a touch overweight.
 
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Mine has mats and a straw bed with small banks around the edge, I can't imagine him with just mats as he pee's for England and is much better on shavings or pellets.

What sprays or powder are people using to reduce the ammonia smell ?
 
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