Is it ever OK to work a horse behind the vertical?

[nikkimariet]

Well put TD

 

[ldlp111]

Ok numpty ques but when you are schooling and you finally get some form of an outline, how can you tell if they are behind the vertical or not as you can't actually see the picture for yourself and I normally school on my own.

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

Sometimes you can just feel it, but with the mare I'm riding at the moment- I know when she is because the space between her throat and neck is very tight, I can't really explain it but there is a little V shape between her throat and neck and when she goes BTV there is no gap or space there- it looks very deep and squashed almost and you naturally want to lengthen her out a bit

 

[YasandCrystal]

Ok numpty ques but when you are schooling and you finally get some form of an outline, how can you tell if they are behind the vertical or not as you can't actually see the picture for yourself and I normally school on my own.

You should be able to guage the angle of the horses neck bend from the poll - the poll should ideally be the highest point (with no nose poking) the neck should bend from the wither - if it is not then the horses is likely 'behind the vertical.
I hope that expalins it a little.

 

[Halfstep]

Not all horses are the same. Some horses have a conformation that makes it more difficult for them to be "through", those with short backs and long, cresty necks, for example. I think that in an idea world, horses shouldn't need to be taken behind the vertical in order to swing over their backs; however, the world isn't ideal and horses haven't read the rule book. So, for some horses, yes - it is OK, so long as the rider knows what, why, and how they are doing it. But for others (short necks, long backs, inactive hind legs) no, it is not a good exercise. Also for riders. Good LDR riding is all about the release, so that the horse is never held in a position. If the rider can't release with proper timing, or is balancing on their hands, NO - bad idea! I don't think it is ever right for a horse to be broken at c3, but letting the neck drop down from the withers softly in an unbroken line, even if the face ends up behind the vertical, can be a very important part of training a horse to use its body properly. IMHO.

 

[Booboos]

What TD said.

R has a tendency to go too deep, too round and on the forehand so he is worked in a more collected outline (OK this is what I aim for, don't always succeed!!!). F will put himself BTV really high with the head and neck so I always try to work him long and low (only succeed at the end of a schooling session).

There was a thread a few months ago where people posted pics of their horses and it was interesting to see different outlines. It was easier to discuss the topic as well as there was an actual photo to refer to.

 

[Firewell]

I think BTV means when they shrink up and tuck their heads in so they look like they are on the bridle but you have sod all contact?
I hate this feeling, I assume it's because the horse isn't supple or moving forwards and it's evading?
My horse can try and do this and I always push him on and do some lateral work and transitions to get him taking my hand forwards and I can feel his mouth then...
Sometimes warming up my horse tries to take the rein and he actually puts his nose on the floor! He does this on the lunge, he likes to trot round sometimes with his nose on the floor. I let him do this for a few moments as I'm assuming he is stretching himself as long as he keeps moving forwards.
Maybe I'm getting confused with behind the bit, not behind the vertical but either way I think it's wrong to work a horse in any extreme position for any length of time. We wouldn't hyperextend our own bodies and hold it for ages, we would injure ourselves and it would hurt, so why would we do that to our horses?

 

[GinaGem]

I don't think it is ever right for a horse to be broken at c3, but letting the neck drop down from the withers softly in an unbroken line, even if the face ends up behind the vertical, can be a very important part of training a horse to use its body properly. IMHO.

I do agree here.

I guess my dislike of behind the vertical stems more from seeing so many people ride continually like it as opposed to short sessions for a particular purpose or through a stretch.

 

[charlie76]

My poor example of different frames! Feel free to correct me:

BTV

http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w207/sharola76/?action=view&current=meekadressage002.jpg
On the vertical

Stretching btv

Stretching not BTV

BTV

In front of the vertical

In front

in front

and what is this!!!
The many moves of Meeka!

 

[PaddyMonty]

BTV is a very poor description. It only really works when used to describe head position relative to floor if horse is working in true comp outline.
For me what we should be talking about is the set of the head relative to the neck ie angle under rear of jaw bone.
Personally I think it is fine and beneficial to rotate the entire neck down provided the set of the head to neck remains the same which to me is very different to BTV. Yes the head is no longer verticle to the ground but the critical angle hasn't changed. Conversly having the neck very high and maintaining a verticle head position relative to ground would be very wrong as this would close the critial head / neck angle.

 

[SpottedCat]

BTV is a very poor description. It only really works when used to describe head position relative to floor if horse is working in true comp outline.
For me what we should be talking about is the set of the head relative to the neck ie angle under rear of jaw bone.
Personally I think it is fine and beneficial to rotate the entire neck down provided the set of the head to neck remains the same which to me is very different to BTV. Yes the head is no longer verticle to the ground but the critical angle hasn't changed. Conversly having the neck very high and maintaining a verticle head position relative to ground would be very wrong as this would close the critial head / neck angle.

This is how I've always understood it too. I've never understood why people are obsessed with the nose relative to the ground when actually, it is the overall frame and the angle of the head relative to the neck which I think is the key issue biomechanically speaking. If you take the ground as the point to measure from, then as soon as there is a slope you have a major problem!!

 

[siennamum]

I think you should aspire to never work BTV, but that if you need to get control or demand more submission you can find yourself working more round than you might want in an ideal world. You also have to work with the conformation of the horse.

As a pictoral example - My current horse has a short neck and getting him too soft in the neck would have been a disaster as he can also nap. To get control when he is jibbing or excited I get him to move forwards at the expense of almost all else, and he overbends, usually I am trying to get him to soften laterally:

I then move him into the outside rein:

Then to take both reins forward (would be improved if he didn't pull me out of position):

Which I think is a decent prelim level working trot. The BTV moments are fairly brief. I would not want him BTV in walk, and am still miles away in canter, which I am protecting obsessively.

 

[nikkimariet]

'For me what we should be talking about is the set of the head relative to the neck ie angle under rear of jaw bone.'

Sorry on phone, can't quote.

But good point well written Juno!

 

[ldlp111]

You should be able to guage the angle of the horses neck bend from the poll - the poll should ideally be the highest point (with no nose poking) the neck should bend from the wither - if it is not then the horses is likely 'behind the vertical.
I hope that expalins it a little.

Ok that does help alittle, although her poll isn't the highest point at present but she does seem to have even bend along her neck. I am hoping that building some muscle will help her in time to bring her poll up. She has only just started to give me some form of an outline over the last month, her canter has also got alot more comfy which is a sign of her using her back more (used to be hard to sit to). I am hoping to convince someone to film me at next comp so I can see how she is going, failing that I will setup camera at home whilst i'm schooling

 

[not_with_it]

I will put my neck on the line slightly here and add some picks. The first 3 are when she was being brought back into work.

working over the base of her neck but btv, not being forced in anyway.

Working over her back and deep and round

Taken a few years ago before her injury, working up to the bit

and above the bit but being resistant.

Feel free to comment on the pics but please dont be too harsh. I have been through so much with this mare and she really is special to me.

 

[Scarlett]

Nat1003 - your second pic is a lovely example of stretching and softening the neck without going BTV IMO, she looks lovely and soft and long in her neck and not at all BTV from that angle. That looks like exactly what I try to achieve in my mare.

Your girl is lovely in all the pics though!

 

[not_with_it]

Nat1003 - your second pic is a lovely example of stretching and softening the neck without going BTV IMO, she looks lovely and soft and long in her neck and not at all BTV from that angle. That looks like exactly what I try to achieve in my mare.

Your girl is lovely in all the pics though!

Thanks. I was ready to give her to the meat man during our lesson yesterday.

I try to work her in that outline stretching over her back for most of the session. I will pick her up inbetween but we always go back to the stretching outline otherwise she will not stretch at the base of her neck.
She is a spooky little madam and can be really stroppy at times. She isnt a dominant mare naturally but when being ridden she likes to have her own way.

 

[Saratoga]

BTV is a very poor description. It only really works when used to describe head position relative to floor if horse is working in true comp outline.
For me what we should be talking about is the set of the head relative to the neck ie angle under rear of jaw bone.
Personally I think it is fine and beneficial to rotate the entire neck down provided the set of the head to neck remains the same which to me is very different to BTV. Yes the head is no longer verticle to the ground but the critical angle hasn't changed. Conversly having the neck very high and maintaining a verticle head position relative to ground would be very wrong as this would close the critial head / neck angle.

I'm glad someone else picked up on this. To me it's not about how vertical the head is to the ground, but the angle at which it is set on to the neck, the space/room through the jowell area, and the angle at which the neck is set on to the shoulder. A closed jowell area IMO is NEVER a good thing.

 

[PooJay]

I would strive never to work a horse btv but it's easier said than done.

My girl is one of these that evades by going behind the bit, leg and btv - she's very forward anyway but mostly not into the contact () if she goes btv, quite often she'll go behind the leg - so i ask her to move forward into the contact a bit more and she comes completely above the bit and shoots off and a gazillion miles per hour.....compouded by the fact that i'm a a little slow to act and try to slow with my seat (definitely a work in progress) and she takes complete advantage of that!

We're getting there though, slowly, very slowly, but surely

(any tips on how to do this without going btv would be most appreciated - currently in a loose ring KK - could this be an issue?)

 

[sbloom]

I used to believe that as long as you didn't close the thoatlatch angle then it was okay....then the logic of that, or the illogic, became clearer once I started getting a classical education care of Mr Herbermann. This is not from him, but is my scientific reasoning - that to be BTV in a strict perpendicular to the ground definition, means the horse has to bring the nose in somehow. Either we are holding it there with the contact, or the horse is holding it there by contracting under neck muscles. I can't see how either is ever a good thing - we always want the underside of the neck to be soft.

A horse iftv (and I do believe we have lost sight of what iftv really means, som pics are only just ON the vertical) is balancing its head through the nuchal ligament being stretched from the HQ, lifted through the shoulder up to the poll, then the head and neck is in a delicate equilibrium with the hand and the seat, the weight of it is carried much more squarely by the whole body, and not by the shoudlers. There is no contraction under the neck, and the top of the neck is streched up and out. It also does not force up the lumbar spine which is what LDR can easily do. It might feel amazing but the "old dead guys" of classical riding would say that it is deceptive and will affect the purity of the gaits.

 

[SusieT]

'My friend is taught by a top UK trainer and her horse is started on the lunge on side reins behind the verticle every single training session. That person's trainees win at international level all the time and their horses have long competitive lives.'
Wins..Yes as the horses are so used to being btv that their moving thier heads up is into on the veticle. Lungeing a horse in side reins btv means those side reins have got ot be pretty damn tight. And who needs to lunge like this every single session to get ar esult?
In short-it is not something to aimfor btv, if your mare is not working properly push her forwards to the hand rather than pulling back with the hand into the leg.

 

[Saratoga]

A horse iftv (and I do believe we have lost sight of what iftv really means, som pics are only just ON the vertical) is balancing its head through the nuchal ligament being stretched from the HQ, lifted through the shoulder up to the poll, then the head and neck is in a delicate equilibrium with the hand and the seat, the weight of it is carried much more squarely by the whole body, and not by the shoudlers. There is no contraction under the neck, and the top of the neck is streched up and out. It also does not force up the lumbar spine which is what LDR can easily do. It might feel amazing but the "old dead guys" of classical riding would say that it is deceptive and will affect the purity of the gaits.

Nicely put.

 

[Kelpie]

I love it when people talk about what "top trainers" do as a justification for their own views..... but then of course they only talk about the "top trainers" whose views appear to be the same as their own

So, I'll mention the "top trainer" that I follow for dressage, whose views are the same as mine Philippe Karl..... for those that don't know him, well, he has very strong views about horses not being ridden BTV! He might very occasionally not immediately correct it when a horse goes BTV is you're working on something else and that something else has priority but almost always being BTV is an absolute no no (and it is certainly never something to aspire to, or regard it as OK just because you are saying that you are working the horse deep and round rather than calling it working BTV).

We must of course all listen to the top trainers that seem to accord most with our own outlooks but personally I prefer to listen to the ones that still have horses in work in their old age, rather than ones that knacker their horses out when they're barely into their teens

Also, as has been said above - ok, sometimes needs must if the horse is doing something unwanted/ spooking, etc, but to be honest even then I don't understand how putting a horse BTV actually helps. Surely if he's going to buck you off, putting him BTV (more weight on the front) won't really stop him? Anyway, if that's really what you feel you need to do to stop some sort of evasion (and you keep having to resort to that) then to be honest thats usually a lack of imagination on the rider's part, IMHO.

 

[glamourpuss]

My young ex-racer was a tricky customer when I first got him. Due to an interesting attempt at reschooling him he was terrified of any contact. He would either frantically chuck his head about, threaten to rear or just run!
It's taken lots of patience but now I've got him to the stage where he trusts my contact however he is in no way ready to work constantly in what I consider to be the desirable frame. He is just too weak both physically & mentally.
I currently allow him to almost 'experiment' with his head & neck position....as long as he is working over his back, active from behind & swinging.
He does quite often drop BTV but as long as he is reaching for the contact & true in his paces then I don't correct it. Yes, not a desirable way for a horse to work but I feel for this horse essential.

 

[Booboos]

I'll post this one of R as I think it's quite an interesting position he has popped himself in (yep I have very little influence over what he decides to do with himself!):

Stretching. In this long and low position I find it very difficult to get his nose further out, should it be further out or is this OK?

and where he should be working!

 

[Mike007]

I love it when people talk about what "top trainers" do as a justification for their own views..... but then of course they only talk about the "top trainers" whose views appear to be the same as their own

So, I'll mention the "top trainer" that I follow for dressage, whose views are the same as mine Philippe Karl..... for those that don't know him, well, he has very strong views about horses not being ridden BTV! He might very occasionally not immediately correct it when a horse goes BTV is you're working on something else and that something else has priority but almost always being BTV is an absolute no no (and it is certainly never something to aspire to, or regard it as OK just because you are saying that you are working the horse deep and round rather than calling it working BTV).

We must of course all listen to the top trainers that seem to accord most with our own outlooks but personally I prefer to listen to the ones that still have horses in work in their old age, rather than ones that knacker their horses out when they're barely into their teens

Also, as has been said above - ok, sometimes needs must if the horse is doing something unwanted/ spooking, etc, but to be honest even then I don't understand how putting a horse BTV actually helps. Surely if he's going to buck you off, putting him BTV (more weight on the front) won't really stop him? Anyway, if that's really what you feel you need to do to stop some sort of evasion (and you keep having to resort to that) then to be honest thats usually a lack of imagination on the rider's part, IMHO.

This/\ /\ /\ /\ .And lets face it ,there are a hell of a lot of people out there doing"dressage"because they are too afraid of what their horse might do,if they rode it anywhere else than the school.They have to force it to look "light and ballanced"but it never is because the rider is not .(oh they might look pretty at first glance but it is all an illusion).

 

[kiritiger]

Off topic but siennamum, were those first pics taken at Avon Riding Centre?

Just curious!

 

[siennamum]

Off topic but siennamum, were those first pics taken at Avon Riding Centre?



Just curious!

yes they were, lovely place, such a nice view.