Is it just me…

[Clodagh]

I am old fashioned, I know.
I was reading about an enhancement garden that’s been built/planted at a Dog’s Trust place. That’s great and I can totally see how useful that could be.
It includes a play area. Good.
But… ‘If a dog can control a toy then it increases their confidence in real life situations’.
Does it? ?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I am old fashioned, I know.
I was reading about an enhancement garden that’s been built/planted at a Dog’s Trust place. That’s great and I can totally see how useful that could be.
It includes a play area. Good.
But… ‘If a dog can control a toy then it increases their confidence in real life situations’.
Does it? ?

What sort of a toy?

Ime being taken out and about into a variety of real life situations and knowing that the owner/handler is in control of the situation, so the dog doesn't need to be, builds confidence

 

[Clodagh]

What sort of a toy?

Ime being taken out and about into a variety of real life situations and knowing that the owner/handler is in control of the situation, so the dog doesn't need to be, builds confidence

It didn’t say. I assumed a ball or something?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

It didn’t say. I assumed a ball or something?

Who knows? I think statements such as that should be explained properly, otherwise they really don't mean anything.
I went off DT, when we took our dogs to a summer fundraiser which was incredibly noisy with a disco next to a very busy pinchpoint. We took the Rott away because she was obviously unhappy even though she was used to going to busyish shows etc. Goodness knows who organised that but it wasn't someone who is dog-savvy.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Shouldn’t we as owners be in control of all things they come into contact with?
?‍I wonder if a dog having an object they are allowed control over may cause issues?
Thinking, but may be on totally the wrong line, if a dog is “in control” of a ball and a child for example tried to pick it up? Or is it them our job to ensure that doesn’t happen?
I think all our dogs know that ultimately we are in control of everything.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Shouldn’t we as owners be in control of all things they come into contact with?
?‍I wonder if a dog having an object they are allowed control over may cause issues?
Thinking, but may be on totally the wrong line, if a dog is “in control” of a ball and a child for example tried to pick it up? Or is it them our job to ensure that doesn’t happen?
I think all our dogs know that ultimately we are in control of everything.

I'm with you P! We practise taking possessions off all our dogs, including food bowls you never know when you might need to!

 

[CorvusCorax]

OK so dogs feel through their mouths.
They're their hands.

Basically every practical application we have adapted dogs for to assist us (retrieving, herding, bitework, assistance dogs who have to carry things or open/close doors) is trained through the primitive desire to hold and posses something. It's all prey drive, just watered down by various degrees.

Chewing a toy (or the furniture) for a dog is like us having a stress ball or a fidget spinner or worry beads (not everyone needs these, but some do).
Dogs use their mouths to relieve tension.
Holding and squeezing an item is very relaxing for a dog, one of my own carries a ball everywhere and ignores everything around him, if he doesn't have it he is definitely more on edge/looky/sharp without it.
It's why so many dogs with SA wreck the house. They're self conforting.
Agility dogs bite into their leash or a toy after a round to take out all the stress and excitement.

If you ever watch a dog 'win' a toy/item/sleeve and parade around with it, you can see it gives them confidence and makes them feel good.
Plenty of us will use a toy in a social situation, to distract and take their minds off things they may find arousing or stressful so I totally understand the meaning, although it is poorly explained.

It's probably not wanting to use language pertaining to biting/prey/possession but that's what it is and it's not a bad thing IMO.

Kids can have teddies or dummy tits, my dog can carry a ball and feel like a brave little toaster.

 

[poiuytrewq]

I'm with you P! We practise taking possessions off all our dogs, including food bowls you never know when you might need to!

Exactly. I’d be perfectly confident to take anything off ours. One, daughters I do shut away if a child visits but certain someone unknown could, if assertive take something off them all.

 

[skinnydipper]

My last dog came to me at 18 months with behavioural issues due to social isolation in his previous home. A significant part of his rehabilitation was learning to look to me for guidance when faced with a difficult situation and knowing also that I had his back.

He liked to carry his ball. Why would I want to remove it from him unnecessarily when carrying it brought him comfort? He gave it to me when I asked him and he was rewarded with the ball being thrown.

I have never routinely removed food bowls or resources as I believe that is more likely to cause resource guarding, not prevent it.

Because of the trust between us I have always been able to remove objects or food from my dogs when safety has been an issue, including opening mouths and retrieving items from the throat with my fingers.

 

[poiuytrewq]

OK so dogs feel through their mouths.
They're their hands.

Basically every practical application we have adapted dogs for to assist us (retrieving, herding, bitework, assistance dogs who have to carry things or open/close doors) is trained through the primitive desire to hold and posses something. It's all prey drive, just watered down by various degrees.

Chewing a toy (or the furniture) for a dog is like us having a stress ball or a fidget spinner or worry beads (not everyone needs these, but some do).
Dogs use their mouths to relieve tension.
Holding and squeezing an item is very relaxing for a dog, one of my own carries a ball everywhere and ignores everything around him, if he doesn't have it he is definitely more on edge/looky/sharp without it.
It's why so many dogs with SA wreck the house. They're self conforting.
Agility dogs bite into their leash or a toy after a round to take out all the stress and excitement.

If you ever watch a dog 'win' a toy/item/sleeve and parade around with it, you can see it gives them confidence and makes them feel good.
Plenty of us will use a toy in a social situation, to distract and take their minds off things they may find arousing or stressful so I totally understand the meaning, although it is poorly explained.

It's probably not wanting to use language pertaining to biting/prey/possession but that's what it is and it's not a bad thing IMO.

Kids can have teddies or dummy tits, my dog can carry a ball and feel like a brave little toaster.

So is it ok for them to own something solely as theirs?
I get what your saying but Unsure to what extent you mean

 

[poiuytrewq]

Reading the replies, I’m wondering if it’s dog related. Our lab constantly has an object, it can be anything but he always looks for something to carry. I don’t take it from him but could I’d need be.
He will actively look for something to carry of called or if someone turns up

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

OK so dogs feel through their mouths.
They're their hands.

Basically every practical application we have adapted dogs for to assist us (retrieving, herding, bitework, assistance dogs who have to carry things or open/close doors) is trained through the primitive desire to hold and posses something. It's all prey drive, just watered down by various degrees.

Chewing a toy (or the furniture) for a dog is like us having a stress ball or a fidget spinner or worry beads (not everyone needs these, but some do).
Dogs use their mouths to relieve tension.
Holding and squeezing an item is very relaxing for a dog, one of my own carries a ball everywhere and ignores everything around him, if he doesn't have it he is definitely more on edge/looky/sharp without it.
It's why so many dogs with SA wreck the house. They're self conforting.
Agility dogs bite into their leash or a toy after a round to take out all the stress and excitement.

If you ever watch a dog 'win' a toy/item/sleeve and parade around with it, you can see it gives them confidence and makes them feel good.
Plenty of us will use a toy in a social situation, to distract and take their minds off things they may find arousing or stressful so I totally understand the meaning, although it is poorly explained.

It's probably not wanting to use language pertaining to biting/prey/possession but that's what it is and it's not a bad thing IMO.

Kids can have teddies or dummy tits, my dog can carry a ball and feel like a brave little toaster.

Interesting. Zak had to have a dummy/ball on walks to keep him focused. He’d drop it if he felt threatened (presumably so he was ready to attack ?)

Goose now picks up and carries toys around, but he’s confident at home, just very busy. He is very submissive outside of the house, but has no access to toys due to being a wild thing in the woods-massive prey drive, I’m dreading the day he springs a muntjac. He likes to ’paddle’ a toy on my knee and often falls asleep doing this-self soothing to sleep, like a baby?

 

[CorvusCorax]

So is it ok for them to own something solely as theirs?
I get what your saying but Unsure to what extent you mean

Nope, I paid for it, I have the receipt. I can put my hand on it and then it's mine.
But I allow him to carry it most times.
It's a very simple thing which makes him more comfortable and harms no one, why would I keep removing it from him?

If I extrapolate that to the sport in which we take part - I don't 'train him to bite people'.
The dog and I are a team working against the helper.
The helper has a sleeve on his arm.
The dog is allowed to win it back off the helper and I allow him to carry it, but ultimately it is mine and when I ask for it back or when I ask him to let it go while the helper still has it, that's what he does - but in order to get there, he had to learn that ultimately in the end, HE wins, if not the sleeve, then a substitute like a high value ball or toy.

I appreciate a lot of people are coming at this from the perspective of the dogs which live with them or they know.
I have observed scores of dogs and take an active interest in/keenly observe the way dogs hold/possess/guard things, their body language, tone of bark etc as that is the basis of how I act around them/help their owners/help train them, which is why I'm a bit nerdy about it.
Absolutely holding/winning items gives a dog confidence.

Even the level of tension on it matters.
Some dogs prefer an item on a bungee as it gives them more of a feeling that they have a chance of 'winning' a game of tug, some are fine with a fixed rope, some like hard items, some like soft ones.

Continually whipping things away from an underconfident dog can make it unstable and undermines the relationship/creates possession as SD says.

Sorry I keep editing as I keep thinking of more things.

 

[Clodagh]

Very interesting. I never take things off my dogs to prove a point. I never touch their food bowls. If I’ve forgotten meds I wait until they’ve finished then give them a smidge more if needed.
Red had only been here a day when she found a chew the puppies had dropped, she grabbed it and bolted to her bed. I barely knew her, so grabbed a tasty treat and went quietly into her bedroom to ask for it back. She gave it easily after a minute and had her treat. I saw no need to dominate her for it.
But anything my dogs have ( including Red now I know her) I can ask for and they put it in my hand. I really only do it when I need to, if they start hoarding or swallowing game they are no use to me.
But I wasn’t sure that playing with a toy would translate to confidence in RL situations. I see CC’s explanation and it makes sense.
I assume labs and springers carrying things to greet is them being genetically bred to bring things to us?

 

[poiuytrewq]

Very interesting. I never take things off my dogs to prove a point. I never touch their food bowls. If I’ve forgotten meds I wait until they’ve finished then give them a smidge more if needed.
Red had only been here a day when she found a chew the puppies had dropped, she grabbed it and bolted to her bed. I barely knew her, so grabbed a tasty treat and went quietly into her bedroom to ask for it back. She gave it easily after a minute and had her treat. I saw no need to dominate her for it.
But anything my dogs have ( including Red now I know her) I can ask for and they put it in my hand. I really only do it when I need to, if they start hoarding or swallowing game they are no use to me.
But I wasn’t sure that playing with a toy would translate to confidence in RL situations. I see CC’s explanation and it makes sense.
I assume labs and springers carrying things to greet is them being genetically bred to bring things to us?

Nope, I paid for it, I have the receipt. I can put my hand on it and then it's mine.
But I allow him to carry it most times.
It's a very simple thing which makes him more comfortable and harms no one, why would I keep removing it from him?

If I extrapolate that to the sport in which we take part - I don't 'train him to bite people'.
The dog and I are a team working against the helper.
The helper has a sleeve on his arm.
The dog is allowed to win it back off the helper and I allow him to carry it, but ultimately it is mine and when I ask for it back or when I ask him to let it go while the helper still has it, that's what he does.

I appreciate a lot of people are coming at this from the perspective of the dogs which live with them or they know.
I have observed scores of dogs and take an active interest in/keenly observe the way dogs hold/possess/guard things, their body language, tone of bark etc as that is the basis of how I act around them/help their owners/help train them, which is why I'm a bit nerdy about it.
Absolutely holding/winning items gives a dog confidence. Even the level of tension on it matters.
Continually whipping things away from an underconfident dog can make it unstable and undermines the relationship/creates possession as SD says.[/QUOTE

 

[poiuytrewq]

No, so I don’t take bowls to prove a point. My 3 do get fed separately though and if I put a bowl in the wrong place accidentally I do pick it back up and correct that without any fuss.
If they have something they shouldn’t the same.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

We have a Lab who loves
to carry a ball on a walk but only when off the lead, she doesn't want to carry it on lead but she likes to hold it while playing football with another ball.

I'm not sure that it gives her confidence, it certainly gives her pleasure. As for taking things off them, if you don't train them to give you things when you ask, you don't know whether you can take things off them or not. And you never know when you might need to. I agree with CC, ultimately our dogs don't own anything, we do.

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

Very interesting. I never take things off my dogs to prove a point. I never touch their food bowls. If I’ve forgotten meds I wait until they’ve finished then give them a smidge more if needed.
Red had only been here a day when she found a chew the puppies had dropped, she grabbed it and bolted to her bed. I barely knew her, so grabbed a tasty treat and went quietly into her bedroom to ask for it back. She gave it easily after a minute and had her treat. I saw no need to dominate her for it.
But anything my dogs have ( including Red now I know her) I can ask for and they put it in my hand. I really only do it when I need to, if they start hoarding or swallowing game they are no use to me.
But I wasn’t sure that playing with a toy would translate to confidence in RL situations. I see CC’s explanation and it makes sense.
I assume labs and springers carrying things to greet is them being genetically bred to bring things to us?

Don’t all breeds bring toys? Never had dog toys with my childhood dog, he was a shoe destroyer. Must bring a toy to greet is an obsession with Bear and Mitch, not Goose. Bear just drops it unless one of the youngsters take it because Bear having a toy is the most fun thing.

From what CC says, carrying a toy is like a baby with a dummy, total comfort.I need to take things off the youngsters occasionally, which I can easily do. Bear will refuse to give up his ball for me to throw it again so needs persuading. He will carry his ball back from the park but sometimes drops it in favour of sniffing.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I think we're kinda talking at cross purposes though and why I said us all talking about what our own pets that we know well, do/how they act isn't really a comparison with the situation Clodagh was talking about.

A genetically sound, confident, well rounded dog likes to carry a ball is not the same as a dog who may have gone through a lot of upheaval and has landed in rescue - and teaching him that he can have/play with/carry/enjoy/win things, will increase happy hormones and make him feel more confident/comfortable etc.

Now going to contradict myself by talking about my young female ?
Because I haven't trained a female for years and have latterly dealt with a pair of very bull-headed males, I was a bit too 'in her head' when asking for the return of items, which has made her a little insecure/grumbly.
My fault. It's not an issue when working on a helper.
So now for play between me and her, we use a frame ball on a bungee, it's crushable, there is give in it, she feels like she **can** win, she offers to come back and play with me, rather than thinking 'feck this, the grumpy bitch is just going to take if off me'.
Plus lots of me letting her dig in, pull me along, exclaiming 'Wow! You're sooo strong' etc etc ?

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

I think we're kinda talking at cross purposes though and why I said us all talking about what our own pets that we know well, do/how they act isn't really a comparison with the situation Clodagh was talking about.

A genetically sound, confident, well rounded dog likes to carry a ball is not the same as a dog who may have gone through a lot of upheaval and has landed in rescue - and teaching him that he can have/play with/carry/enjoy/win things, will increase happy hormones and make him feel more confident/comfortable etc.

On that basis, will the rescue potentially resource guard as he or she has never been taught to give up toys/the bed etc?

 

[skinnydipper]

On that basis, will the rescue potentially resource guard as he or she has never been taught to give up toys/the bed etc?

No.

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

No.

Then is it purely fear/aggression?

 

[Spotherisk]

Don’t all breeds bring toys? Never had dog toys with my childhood dog, he was a shoe destroyer. Must bring a toy to greet is an obsession with Bear and Mitch, not Goose. Bear just drops it unless one of the youngsters take it because Bear having a toy is the most fun thing.

From what CC says, carrying a toy is like a baby with a dummy, total comfort.I need to take things off the youngsters occasionally, which I can easily do. Bear will refuse to give up his ball for me to throw it again so needs persuading. He will carry his ball back from the park but sometimes drops it in favour of sniffing.

No they don’t all bring their toys to you, whippetty things have way more fun dancing around and hoping that somehow you’ll morph into another whipetty thing and they can play chase for ever and ever…

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

No they don’t all bring their toys to you, whippetty things have way more fun dancing around and hoping that somehow you’ll morph into another whipetty thing and they can play chase for ever and ever…

OMG, I think Goose is a whippet! ?

 

[CorvusCorax]

On that basis, will the rescue potentially resource guard as he or she has never been taught to give up toys/the bed etc?

Any dog can resource guard, it's generally down to sloppy/unfair/uninformed handling/training.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Then is it purely fear/aggression?

See answer #25

 

[skinnydipper]

Then is it purely fear/aggression?

Sorry, you've lost me.

 

[Clodagh]

All interesting stuff.
On my dogs again. I had a DA Doberman x in Oz. He always carried a ball in public but in my mind it was so I knew if he dropped it there was an issue. But actually maybe he was less reactive with his ‘dummy’. I never thought of it that way round.

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

Sorry, you've lost me.

I meant is resource guarding fear/aggression but CC has explained.

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

All interesting stuff.
On my dogs again. I had a DA Doberman x in Oz. He always carried a ball in public but in my mind it was so I knew if he dropped it there was an issue. But actually maybe he was less reactive with his ‘dummy’. I never thought of it that way round.

I don’t think Zak was less reactive, he was just more focused because he knew he was ‘working’ when he had a ball/dummy in view. Another dog would have to be up in his business for him to drop it.