Is it reasonable... another YO / YM thread

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Abacus

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I have read with interest the recent threads about being a YO / YM and dealing both with expectations and the difficulties of providing a service for a price. This is a slightly different question.

Is it reasonable for a YO / YM (obviously with their own horses) to have one rule for their own and another for their liveries? I'll give an example but the question could cover any area of horse care, field maintenance, etc.

My example is that I have a very small yard with my own horses and one DIY livery, I will possibly take one more next month. Each has 2 horses and I don't offer services though am happy to lend a hand in return for favours each way. So far it's very friendly and working well - I've only been there since March.

In winter I intend to have my older horse living out with a pony for company. He has arthritis, is an outdoor lover anyway, and I know from the last 2 winters (one living in, the other out) that he is happier, healthier and stays much less stiff if he is out 24/7. I wouldn't go so far as to say I bought the yard for him, but it was in my mind that finally I can keep him as I choose and that means living out, if it suits him better.

The girl who wants to bring her horses has asked if they can live out and I will be saying no. Her reasons are valid - she works long hours and it would be easier for her to do field checks than full on mucking out etc. It's not a medical reason, and I think that will be my get-out. I don't have enough acreage to keep that many horses out all the time - I know the yard having been there previously as a livery, and the fields are pretty wet in winter. This is another good reason.

In this particular case I believe I am justified in having one rule for me and another for her, if I explain upfront. But is it fair in general?
 
Totally fair. I rent fields from a lady who runs a livery yard. Hers live out all year round, her liveries do not. Her yard, her rules.
 
Fair in general? Not quite but you have reasons for why you can't have too many horses out 24/7 in winter. If she doesn't want the fields destroyed quickly she will understand.
 
Of course it fair your yard your rules .
But honestly I would not take this person on to the yard no matter how up front you are about the rules it's going to cause bad feeling .
 
I have a few of my own plus some liveries and I insist the liveries are in at night over winter whereas a couple of mine will stay out 24/7 apart from possibly the worst weather, is it fair as long as the rules are clear and there from day 1 then totally, it is my land to manage as I wish, it may be more convenient for some people to leave the horses out but if there is not enough land to cope with 24/7 turnout then they will have to look for somewhere that does allow it or bring then in and either pay someone to do them or get up earlier.
 
Thanks for those thoughts.

With regard to not taking that person... it's extra complicated as she's an old friend of about 15 years and I would like to have her there. I think I can explain in a nice way, and that hopefully she'll see I am fair in other ways. I won't be always giving my horses the best fields etc.

I was just interested in whether it causes bad feeling on a yard when a YO has their own rules, or whether it's possible to handle it well.
 
Totally fair, but maybe don't make a medical reason your get out because it won't take her long to come up with a medical reason (Quote possibly genuine as her horses age) perhaps better to just be upfront, you own the land, it's your rules.
 
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It has never caused bad feeling as I am clear from day 1, I do allow 24/7 turnout all summer normally until at least the end of Sept, in fact I encourage it as I like the horses out as much as possible so I think that makes a difference, if I insisted on them in at night all year that would not go down well when mine are all out.
 
Honestly, I think business arrangements with friends are best avoided - it's much easier to say no and stick to it with someone you have no emotional attachment to. If you go down the friend route just say firmly and up front yours stay out but you cannot accommodate any more on that basis and if she needs 24/7 turnout then your place is not suitable for her.
 
I think if you are clear in your rules from the start then it may well be ok. But what does cause bad feeling is when the rules change to suit the YO, it may be that it's YO yard so tough, but it certainly does not mean it's fair.
I wouldn't go along the reason being the medical problems. I would simply say that in order to have liveries, it has to be that way to maintain the land.
 
Of course it is fair , it's your land.
But please be up front with the rules. You have absolutely no need to make up "excuses "
Just say you do not offer 24/7 turnout for liveries.
I would , however , be wary of having a business arrangement with a friend.
 
_OC_ said:
As you like her offer to muck out, turn out and bring in for payment......seems fair and saves your paddocks.
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No way - I work full time and have children - it's all I can do to manage my own and frankly the money for mucking out isn't worth it compared with what I earn elsewhere. If she wants to find a freelance groom it's fine, as long as they are safe and friendly.

Good point though about the medical issues - I'll say it's just about the fields.
 
You don't have to have a get out.
You just need to be clear about what you are offering up front and then it is up to the individual livery to either accept this or look elsewhere.
 
agreed-don't give reasons as they can then be used against you and you don't have to justify yourself anyway. Just state the deal and if they want it fine, if they don't like it they can go elsewhere.
 
I had this when I had several liveries & my own horses that live out 24/7 in all but the worst weather unfortunately people see you managing your horses a certain way & then want to do the same it did cause difficulties & now I only have 1 pony livery that I have agreed to manage as my own I certainly wouldn't offer livery to a friend it's likely to go pearshaped !!
 
irishdraft said:
I had this when I had several liveries & my own horses that live out 24/7 in all but the worst weather unfortunately people see you managing your horses a certain way & then want to do the same it did cause difficulties & now I only have 1 pony livery that I have agreed to manage as my own I certainly wouldn't offer livery to a friend it's likely to go pearshaped !!
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This is exactly why I asked. I do worry that if I don't state a reason for managing one horse differently then it will cause resentment. And I have certainly seen yards where the YO manages things to suit their own to the detriment of others, and as others have said, changing the arrangements to suit them. Guess I will find out...
 
Of course it is. It's your place you can do whatever you want just make sure the liveries know what their options are (or are not!) before they come! Absolutely do not make excuses or give reasons that makes you look weak!
 
Have had friends on my yard before, tbh its like treading on egshells OP, however well you get on!
As said above by several: its your yard, your rules - so state them before she arrives.

Also, do a contract BEFORE she arrives - however simple - it will cover your back to point at, if (when) she decides to do things her own way......which will happen at some point.
You can say along the lines to her, I know we are good mates, but this is to save us falling out on a horrid day in the middle of winter
Don't get regularly landed with doing extra horses if she has to work odd hours, because once or twice soon leads into every evening/morning......
 
It's totally fair.

If you wanted to you could offer her that one of her horses can go out with your boy during the day and in at night, and alternate horses. But would depend on weather!
 
Nope not unreasonable. You are letting your oldie and a mate live out for his health and wellbeing. Her reasons are lack of time.

At last yard (which I left) the rules were one for us liveries (only 2) and another for their many horses. We were stabled 24/7 in winter, hers got out on nice days, mine was going mental, scrubbing her tail, loosing weight and stressing. No allowances were made. It then took 6 weeks for her to sort us 2 a field when hers were living out in glorious sunshine 24/7 and mine had been stabled for 6 months, again stressed, with a bald tail by this point and a VERY unamused owner but she was so hyper I didn't dare travel her during this time incase she wrecked the box (my friends box!) or hurt herself. We had to ride it out then BOLT.

THAT was unreasonable in my view. What you are saying isn't.

ETA: As a livery, I would completely understand if my horse had to be stabled overnight in winter, but another lived out due to health reasons.
 
Damnation said:
Nope not unreasonable. You are letting your oldie and a mate live out for his health and wellbeing. Her reasons are lack of time.

At last yard (which I left) the rules were one for us liveries (only 2) and another for their many horses. We were stabled 24/7 in winter, hers got out on nice days, mine was going mental, scrubbing her tail, loosing weight and stressing. No allowances were made. It then took 6 weeks for her to sort us 2 a field when hers were living out in glorious sunshine 24/7 and mine had been stabled for 6 months, again stressed, with a bald tail by this point and a VERY unamused owner but she was so hyper I didn't dare travel her during this time incase she wrecked the box (my friends box!) or hurt herself. We had to ride it out then BOLT.

THAT was unreasonable in my view. What you are saying isn't.

ETA: As a livery, I would completely understand if my horse had to be stabled overnight in winter, but another lived out due to health reasons.
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Unreasonable? It is surely YOUR job to appropriately exercise your horse?
 
Cortez said:
Unreasonable? It is surely YOUR job to appropriately exercise your horse?
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When there is no lit area, or even an arena in the dead of winter there is nowhere to safely exercise. I did my best to try and walk her in the evenings but poor light combined with her being in didn't help at all. She didn't cope well enough being in to just hack out twice a week if the weather was ok.

We were promised an arena when I moved there but it never happened, I was also promised turnout which wasn't held up on. Otherwise I would never have moved there.

As I said, I left. It didn't suit us at all.
 
I'm afraid I too would say do not let a friend be a paying livery, from experience it doesn't work! We spent three months grass livery with a friend, many years ago and while it worked reasonably well, it felt very odd. We then allowed someone to livery with us more recently, it did not work for us at all and nearly ended the friendship (we only charged what the pony ate and ended up bringing in, haying and watering and putting out, the pony was kept on awful shavings and was deep littered to the point that the wooden wall was rotted out! The only thing we didn't do was muck out) It was only by keeping our mouths shut that the friendship survived and we were glad when she left!
 
In this instance, it seems fair. As long as you are upfront about it from the start and, as others have said, you don't need to come up with an excuse! Just say you bought the land so that your older horse could live out, but the land won't sustain more living out. If she doesn't like that arrangement, she can find elsewhere if it suits her better.

I think there are other cases where 'one rule for YO, another for liveries' doesn't seem as fair, mostly when it's not open/ up front. For example a yard I was on had limited winter turnout and said turnout in the school was strictly not allowed. Except when the YO's daughter wanted to turn her elderly mare out in there for hours on end so that no one could ride!
 
I was a livery on my friend's yard, lasted about 8 months and nearly ended badly. My friend had her way of doing things and could often be inconsistent with rules and how they were applied to me and other liveries so you never quite knew where you were. We are still friends, she no longer offers livery and I don't blame her- though she's kindly said if I ever need a place for my horses I am the only person she'd ever have back.

I think it is completely fair and reasonable for you to manage your land/stables how you want and for your own horses to take priority- your friend has indicated she wants hers to live out 24/7 in winter- I would worry that later down the line this might cause tension between the two of you, so I would give it some serious thought and make sure she understands that this really won't be an option.
 
So long as you make the rules clear, and they apply to ALL liveries, then it's fair.

I'd never have a problem with a YO managing their horses one way, and the liveries another, as long as it was the same for every livery, no special privileges, discounts, preferences ect.
 
You don't have the land. end of. However your comment about not keeping the best fields is a bit concerning. Its your land, your worry, your financial commitment. I would assume you would keep the best for yourself otherwise why did you bother buying your own place in the first instance? I never had an issue with any YO wanting to have the best fields or stables..its small recompense for all the hassle they have.
 
Luci07 said:
However your comment about not keeping the best fields is a bit concerning. Its your land, your worry, your financial commitment. I would assume you would keep the best for yourself otherwise why did you bother buying your own place in the first instance? I never had an issue with any YO wanting to have the best fields or stables..its small recompense for all the hassle they have.
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I can totally see your point and yet have seen, at the other end of the scale, a YO with the vast majority of the fields for their own horses (or say the only one that isn't a mud pit) while the others are too full, too muddy, not as well fenced, etc. I think this is the sort of thing that leads to resentment. As it happens I am quite lucky that I have 4 good sized fields which are very similar so there really is no reason for anyone to be annoyed, and I am not giving my horses a poor field while they wallow in luxury.

Also I think it's fair to rotate the fields equally and give everyone's horses a rested field in turn. Even though it is my land they are paying, so they should expect fair and pleasant treatment. If they and the horses are happy it will make a nicer yard all round.

I will keep the biggest stable but I have the biggest horse anyway. If I had my 11hh pony in the 14x13 stable while a big horse was cramped, I would feel that I was being unfair to the horse.
 
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