Is it right to keep horses without adequate facilities?

Nudibranch

Nudibranch

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I mean in relation to diet management. Every other thread - rightly so at this time of year - seems to be about grazing muzzles, diet paddocks, strip grazing. I have owned my fair share of fatties/laminitics/Cushings and so on but I have always considered their quality of life good. By that I mean I have been able to give them reduced grazing on poor, old pasture and low sugar forage when necessary by using electric fencing, so that they can have continual turnout which isn't going to harm them.

However it seems a lot of livery yards and private set ups are not geared for dealing with the many horses who need their diet controlling. Yard owners who insist on maintaining lush grazing; 24/7 use of grazing muzzles; extensive periods of stabling, etc.

So is it right to keep horses in situations where their comfort and health are potentially compromised? Even when it's unavoidable, is that ok?

I am not having a go at anyone here by the way, I am just asking the question.
 
It's a fair point and I often wonder this myself.

I keep my fatty on poor quality grazing that is sectioned off so luckily I can get away with not muzzling him for 90% of the time, and he gets to live out 24/7 with another fellow fatty.

My price for this, is not having any facilities. I doubt I would be able to keep him so trim if he was on livery as the paddocks are always so green and lush and YOs are not always happy about you sectioning them off.

I'm sure there are exceptions but certainly the yards round my way like to keep their fields looking nice and green!
 
I think it's natural to think that but then again I think horses with these types of problems are less common ? I provide a livery service (full livery only) and I don't provide any of this and actually am happy to say that I have never had to deal with a horse such problems. I only have lush green fields and large stables as that's what owners want. There are people which don't want this but I think the majority of people do, as do I. If looking for a place for my 2 I wouldn't want to put them anywhere where the grass wasn't sufficient.
 
I think that's why it is important to find somewhere that suits YOUR horse. One of the things that would put me off a livery yard would be lush fields, but if I had a poor doer then that would attract me to the yard!
 
I don't have those issues, but the other ones of keeping weight on in winter. The reason I'm posting is at my old yard you had to make do with what they offered. They made NO allowances at all if you had an overweight or lami prone. You were not allowed a starvation paddock, or any special treatment unless you were directly related to them or paying the daughter extra for some ad hoc livery duties! They called people lazy if they asked, and told them they needed to look after their horses better. Then usually hounded them until they left.

A few women there had no choice but have their heavies stand in all day - one girl had her pony out around 6 hours every 3 days to try and cope. This earned her abuse from some older liveries who couldnt resist a jibe or two.

Provided the horse owner is prepared to put the work in, set up electric and maintain water if away from a trough, et al I just don't see the problem in letting people have some autonomy? - Or is this where it goes wrong and the YO loses control?

Where I am now they are brilliant, and as long as you ask first they will accommodate your needs to keep your horse fit and healthy - obviously within reason.

Like I said I don't have the need, but feel for those who do and are powerless to do anything about it.

I've never owned / run a yard in my life, just been a customer and have no experience of the other side of it. Apologies if this runs over the line to those who do. :o
 
The problem is that if, like me, you don't have facilities at home to keep your horse, then the only way you can have one at all is to either rent grazing /facilities and do it yourself, or resort to local livery yards.

In my case, I keep my highland (an extremely good doer!) at an excellent local yard with good grazing and facilities. The upsides are that I have great facilities and everything I need immediately to hand. The downside is that, as has already been pointed out by Cobsgalore, there's a price for this - in my case it's having to restrict my pony's turnout quite severely at this time of year. Our paddocks are fabulous, but not for a boy who gets fat on fresh air!. Sectioning them off isn't possible and I perfectly understand the position of my YO who has 2 dozen very different horses with very different needs to cater for.

As such, he's only out for 4 hours per day at present, but I hope to increase this a bit when the grass calms down. Leaving him out 24/7 would be catastrophic. I ride him 5-6 days per week and he goes on the walker on the other days.

My pony seems perfectly happy to be in his spacious stable for most of the day and he's in a good routine. Of course I'd prefer him to be out more.

The point is that every situation is a compromise and, unless you're extremely lucky to have your own "perfect" home set up, then that compromise between what's perfect and what's possible is the price we pay to have our horses. Our duty as responsible owners is to find a compromise position which both horse and owner can live with.
 
Its too hard for a yard owner to gear a yard to suit everyone. At one point on my yard I had a skinny tb that needed building up, my own ISHs that get fat on fresh air, an injured horse that needed turnout alone but stressed without the others, one with very severe mudrash that needed a hardcore turnout, another with EMS.. All in the middle of winter when the fields were prone to churn up and all but the winter field should have been being rested. And all when we were making £5/horse a week if we were lucky!

I agree with CobsGalore, you have to think carefully before you go on a yard whether it will suit your horse.

Nowadays we just have our own horses, so we really can gear the situation up exactly how we need it. We still have to bring in and muzzle to keep weight down sometimes. This year we have got some sheep instead.

ps, not saying we didn't try to work with owners and their problems, we did, just that its not always possible to do so if you're also trying to rest fields for winter (that to a livery may seem like the ideal starvation field..) and work to the next season.
 
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Its hard for livery yards,if you turned up to view a yard with bare brown fields in spring you would not be impressed.
A good yard harrows, rotates and reseeds their filed which is great for grass, to have grass for winter you have to promote grass growth in spring. Making paddock paradises makes it hard for them to manage the land, smaller paddocks and higher stocking density tends to promote weed growth so I think even with the best with will its hard to please everyone.
I have my own land and I struggle even through I am complete control and you also get the well intentioned who think poor animal it must be hungry as there is no grass for them to eat.
If a grazing muzzle is going to stop and animal being ill and there is no other solution its and option but usually I think they are feeding far too much to start off with but that another story.
 
I think this year has been particulary bad in terms of grass growing very fast due to the weather and being more lush and high in sugar than normal. People are much more aware as well of the problem of horse getting too fat so are keener to try and do something about it before it becomes a major health problem.

I wonder if it is because as a horse owning nation we are changing in terms of what it is fashionable to own and also the number of leisure riders versus competition riders. The good doer cob and native pony is becoming more popular and maybe yards have not caught up with this in terms of what they provide in terms of restricted grazing in the summer, combined with more people working longer hours and perhaps having less time to ride than before.

I have a good doer who likes to live out, it is hard to find 24/7 turnout anyway. He is being muzzled for the first time this year to try and control his weight in the summer but he winters out very well and once it becomes winter and lots of people complain about lack of turnout during the winter he will be enjoying winter turnout whilst people perhaps who don't need to worry about their horses weight might be complaining about lack of grass or that their horses are stuck in for weeks due to the snow or rain.
 
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We are looking at moving Boyo closer to home. Our Must Have list is DIY, a stable, no restricted TO , and to be allowed to strip graze him with leccy fencing at our expense.

Very difficult to find within a limited radius! We have dropped lucky though and been offered a place on a v small yard which ticks all the boxes.

Currently keeping our fingers crossed - we are in the very early stages of planning and discussion for Boyo to go from part loan 30 mins away to full loan on a yard 5 mins away... exciting and stressful all at once! Mostly exciting though :D
 
I've had no option but to muzzle my mare this year! Up until this year we've had two horses and our own field that we could manage how we liked. This year i have 1 horse on a bigger scale livery yard with ridiculously lovely grass and lots of horses that need that grass so there's no option of strip grazing really but id rather she was muzzled and have free rein of a big field with her friends anyway :)
 
We are lucky at our stables .. YO takes good care of the place .. And cares about the horses .. Two fields (fairly big fields) have been changed / reseeded to special lami grass !! ( YO is a farmer and knows all about grass ) we each have concrete pens outside our stables ( handy if they are on box rest, or really crap winter weather) so we can leave the stable door open and they can wander in and out .. We also have fields with normal grass ..for none lami's .. Even have 3 types of hay ..meadow , mixed, Newmarket ... Or you can have haylage .. :)
 
My fatty is very bonded to my skinny so to give fatty perfect grazing conditions would mean separating them. I find instead a muzzle and a couple of nights in during the week plus most of Saturday and Sunday when fatty can 'think thin' and skinny can munch hay is a fair balance for their happiness.
 
As an ex yard owner, I used to hate creating a starvation paddock - because it did damage to the field long term, and as and when that livery leaves, I then had to recover it.

Bearing in mind land can cost around £5000 an acre, it was just not finacially viable to have a livery paying £25 per week to leave me with a bare patch of earth.

I used to allow turn out in the school or encourage muzzles for that reason.
 
We have two paddocks with ok grass. One poor doer, one very good doer. I section off patches for the good doer. I move them from one paddock to another every 8 weeks or so. About 2 weeks before I'm due to move them when the grass is looking much less lush, I put them in together at night. Seems to be working so far as I am keeping a beady eye on the weightape and good doer is maintaining a healthy weight and poor doer (who gets hard feed as well) is looking much better. Constant supervision and changing the routine as the ponies change shape. We did livery over the winter and it was definitely one routine fits all - our poor NF who loves being out 24/7 spent a lot of time stabled and ended up looking very poor on it.
 
I probably couldn't manage mine on livery. Mine are out 20 hours per day, in for 4. 12 hours grazing at night. 8 hours on a sparse field with haylage spread out and they like a sleep in a straw bed til time to go out. Also exercise during the day. I have the ability to manage this where I am. Couldn't do it otherwise and don't blame livery yard owners who can't cater to this type of thing. I also have client horses on a more normal routine but mostly out. So it's a lot of here and there. But not liveries.

I get your point but a YO would have to pony up a lot of money to maintain the whims and needs of indivual people and horses. It would be a giant headache. As well as looking at poor grazing in some areas. It's detracting. My diet paddock isn't pretty.

Terri
 
I feel blessed that I can keep mine at home, I have seeded the paddocks with supposedly horse friendly grass, I can move my fences around, turn out when I like depending on the heat or rain and stable when I like. I've always kept mine at home so have never appreciated what it is like to be a livery and the compromises you have to make.
 
My good doer prefers to be in with the other horses in the big field with 24 hour turnout in summer, rather than on his own in a starvation paddock where he gets stressed. So I muzzle him.

The only other decent yards near us won't allow you to buy your own hay in, or doesn't provide 24 hour turnout, or doesn't have winter turnout, or has really lush individual paddocks which are undergrazed. So compromises have to be made.
 
we had this at our current yard (Rio being the only one who needs restricted grazing) so we would fence the field as normal (hes a stallion) and then stick my gelding in there for a couple of weeks to munch it down and then stick Rio in there. Taz is in a field where the grass touches his belly (hes 17.2hh) but he still shows his ribs and yes I do check his feet twice daily (they are out 12 hours a day) but all the horses bar Rio can have unlimited grazing but our YO is happy to top the field and then stick another in there to graze it down or for me to strip graze it. Depends on how flexible the YO is really and mine is very flexible around Rio :)
 
If I had to keep my girl on box rest whilst all the others were out grazing, then I don't think her quality of life would be any good at all. Luckily I have a small sand turnout ménage which she can stay in and which is next to her paddock were her fieldmate is. When she is sound, she goes out in a grazing muzzle for 8 hours with him, and comes into the sand with the other laminitic for the rest of the time so that they can have time without their masks. Sadly, I am no longer able to keep her even on the sparsest of grass without a muzzle, and now, it seems even with a muzzle, it is too much after there's been rain, as despite being lean, she has got laminitis again.

I agree with you, OP that facilities should ideally be made available for these types of horses, but it is not easy, or cheap. I have my own facilities, but I have not been on any livery yards that provide them when I have been a livery client in the past. It does seem to be something that is overlooked.
 
To be honest, I don't think it's so much the yard owners that need to change their mindsets, but the horse owners do... we need to be much more realistic about what our horses ACTUALLY NEED. I think the majority actually don't need lots of grass, they just need a constant supply of it - there's a big difference but a tricky balance when it comes to management... If we change our demands, eventually yard owners will start to cater accordingly...
 
This thread could equally have been titled "Is it right to sell horses to those without adequate facilities?" and that is a difficult one in today's climate.

I have had just two enquiries for a pony I am selling. The first, who viewed, clearly did not have the necessary experience and knowledge to take on a youngster, so was refused. That was difficult because she had the money, was very eager, and did not even attempt to haggle down what was a negotiable but high price.

The next is coming to view quite soon. The pony will be liveried. I get the impression that the enquirer is a good rider but not necessarily knowledgeable about the management of native ponies, especially good doers and the need for dieting. They are coming a long distance and seem committed already. They've seen the photos and the videos. I suspect the sale is already a done deal -- all I'll have to do is shake a hand and cash the cheque.

So what does one do? Explain the facts and hope for the best? That doesn't seem quite right either.
 
I think that education is the key. When horseowners accept that horses are not cows, and that lovely looking lush green fields will kill the horse, quite quickly in some cases, over decades in others.
Tracks seem the best solution that I've found, we make haylage from the lush green grass and feed that all year round.
So far, touch wood, no problems as far as grass rated diseases are concerned.
 
There's also an issue in terms of some farm liveries, in the sense that from a farming livestock viewpoint, lush greenness is best - for cattle and for making wrapped forage. Some find it very hard to accept that what they see as an overgrazed field of poor quality grasses is actually exactly what their horse clients for the most part need and should be asking for.

I do my best on farming forums to try to encourage appreciation that the horse fields aren't bad, just reflecting the differing needs of the species and that they as farmers can be just as proud of them as a good business as they are of their lush pretty greenness!

But its very hard to provide a limited quantity of low quality grasses all year round for cob types, unless you live on a moor. I use the follow on method, big horse, sheep, coblet in rotation. But am lucky as I'm at home.
 
I read this thread with interest. We only have the one retired mare now (with her goat and hen buddies) and she has never had laminitis. When I read about how people bend over backwards to accommodate their horses' dietary needs for laminitics and poor doers, it's quite awe-inspiring (without trying to sound too sycophantic) :o . When we moved over we were told that the land hadn't been grazed by horses for at least 50 years, it was sheep pasture so not lush at all. Despite that our heavyweight geldings had to be watched as they could get as fat as butter on it. I wonder if the next generation of horses will be less laminitis prone (unless they are genetically predisposed) as people are now understanding the nutritional needs of horses so much more now, especially at a young age. Also, I wonder if there is a market for liveries dedicated to accommodating IR and laminitis horses/ponies. I will say I'm not a massive fan of strip grazing (although I have had to do it in the past because we had a stallion), simply because the smaller the area the bigger the concentration of poo and worm contamination! I do see the necessity of it though.
 
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My yard does offer different grazing. They specifically have one small starvation paddock used for fat ponies and say a horse needing restricted turn out ( as in last week, a grass livery recovering from a nasty cut). If the grass gets too good, another horse will be chucked in to mow it down again but year round usage keeps it down. Every where else is lush right now.
 
I'm a fussy mongrel. I don't like shared grazing and prefer to only have my own horses mixing. Because of this I only livery at yards where I have my own personal paddocks. This means I can poo pick properly, fence of areas and limit my horses grass intake.

I hate muzzles and i don't like seeing horses stuck in a box when all their buddies are out playing. Electric fenced well grazed paddocks are in my opinion, the only option.
 
I do agree with others about education of horse management. my mare is over weight. to muzzle her woukd stress beyond belief. to graze her on own would stress her beyond belief so i use winter as nature intended to sliwly lose weight for spring. no rugs etc but increased hay if snow etc. in spring and summer both her and big lad(she cant come in without him) are stable at night. so far we have kept lami at bay for 8 years. and just so aware her stress as to be micro managed due to horrific abuse before i bought her and shes losing her sight god love her x
 
No, it isn't.

I am actually moving yards - apart from the fact it is costing me a fortune diesel wise, and the grass was non existent last year due to over stocking.

Short stressed grass is far more likely to cause a laminitic outbreak, and I became tired of having to supplement my horses feed during a time where he SHOULD have been able to exist purely on grass.

He then began in the winter to plant going up the track for turnout - this from a horse who preferred out to in - perfectly happy tucked up in his stable with a haynet.

Too little, or too much - it is all a nightmare in livery yards!!!
 
It's why my lad will likely remain at home with my mum and her mare and not move to wilts. Having a track system has worked really well for him, his weight and his feet (and gives us a ridiculous amount of hay and plenty of grazing in the winter - no tracks then). At his age I think it would be unfair to compromise his situation when he can have things more tailored for him.
 
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