Is 'join up' abusive?

I agree fBurton. There are two horses I know which the others instantly treat as herd leader and hate it. One was fine with one youngster but anything else or more than that and would spend her time trying to wander off without them, very happy when put in with another herd leader and left alone.
 
And is this true of all herd animals? Large female cats are born into beta and omega roles. It would be a huge waste of time to contest this and certainly not natural instinct. Though true for males in this case.
 
You know what? I very much doubt my 23yr old, easy to do etc pony views me as her superior. I know from our younger years anything she perceived to be me trying to be leader was pretty much ignored, & resulted in very stubborn behavior. Yet now she's the worlds safest & most predictable, genuine pony. Because I learnt not to try & be in control. She'll listen to my input now regarding what I'd like to do. And if push came to shove she'd probably give way to me. But only because she trusts my knowledge regarding strange situations. Just like I trust her superior instincts for things like safe footing. She's good as gold, but I'm under no illusions that its because she views me as more dominant. And I doubt she views small kids etc as more dominant either, she nannies them, rather than respects them. She's good because she chooses to be, not because she follows my decisions & commands as herd leader.
 
The_angel_littlelegs said:
You know what? I very much doubt my 23yr old, easy to do etc pony views me as her superior. I know from our younger years anything she perceived to be me trying to be leader was pretty much ignored, & resulted in very stubborn behavior. Yet now she's the worlds safest & most predictable, genuine pony. Because I learnt not to try & be in control. She'll listen to my input now regarding what I'd like to do. And if push came to shove she'd probably give way to me. But only because she trusts my knowledge regarding strange situations. Just like I trust her superior instincts for things like safe footing. She's good as gold, but I'm under no illusions that its because she views me as more dominant. And I doubt she views small kids etc as more dominant either, she nannies them, rather than respects them. She's good because she chooses to be, not because she follows my decisions & commands as herd leader.
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I think you are right. Often horses will choose a different 'leader' in the herd, than the most 'dominant' horse. Usually, it is a very calm, self assured animal that they trust to lead them to the best forage and keep them out of danger. I believe they are the same with humans. Horses will work so much better for a person they view as calm, and who makes good 'choices', and someone who 'listens' to their fears rather than tries to force them into things.
 
Really enjoying this thread - it's an interesting debate. I first saw Monty Roberts about 15 years ago, a little before he became the global showman, and I was genuinely moved by what I saw. That said, I'd been out of riding for 15 years. Nothing I saw disturbed me. I saw him again a few years later and questioned the use of his buck-stop which seemed to fly in the face of everything he stood for.

When I eventually got back into riding and horse ownership I became far more questioning of his methods. As a positive, I think, particularly in the wider world, he has raised awareness and provoked thought about methods of starting and training horses (we're still talking about him now ;)) and even when we don't agree with what he does, I don't think we can take that away from him, and it's a positive.

However, to give my take on OP's original question, I wouldn't go so far as to say join-up is abusive, and I think it has its place, but I DO think that in many cases it must just be god-awfully confusing for the horse. Even if we accept that the human can mimic equine body language and the horse "understands" that it's being sent away (as for a misdemeanour) it must wonder what on earth that misdemeanour might be; minding its own business as it is in the round pen. That's what troubles me. I have a wonderful bond with my mare and feel I would undermine that trust if I attempted join-up. Indeed, I already have join-up; she'd follow me up the motorway if I asked ;)
 
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