Is no now a dirty word?
- Thread starter P3LH
- Start date
windand rain
Well-Known Member
We have no fences ar the front it is a covenant so nothing we can do about it. A footpath runs infront of the house and dogs walk it every day as routine probably a dozen or more dogs two or three times a day. When willow is in the garden with us every time a dog passes or a car moves she sits at either mine or oh feet. Nearly everyone who passees says "I wish my dog would behave like that." I know she is getting old but she has been trained to behave rarely with treats I might add the only thing I did train with treats was a whistle recall three toots and she gets cheese or chicken for coming straight back
Bellasophia
Well-Known Member
A whistle recall and three toots? I must try this with my hub when he is shopping and wanders off...
your dog sounds brilliant,it must be very challenging to have a public walkway on your boundary.
your dog sounds brilliant,it must be very challenging to have a public walkway on your boundary.
FinnishLapphund
There's no cow on the ice
The situation you describe with your new puppy is the type of situation where I might use No/or Ap ap/Grrrr/Fy.
I don't see any problem with usually trying to give my bitches alternatives without using the word No, at the same time as occasionally simply telling them that they're doing something wrong/bad.
We have one poisonous viper in Sweden, common European adder (Viper berus berus). I have not met one out on my dog walks yet (as far as I'm aware about), but if I do meet one, there is absolutely no way that I would let my bitches make up their own minds/learn by trial and error, about if dogs should play with vipers.
On the other hand I also feel that it is noticeable that I currently have a breed that haven't been specifically bred to want to work with/please humans. I need to mostly make it enjoyable/fun/worth it to them, because I'm sure that it wouldn't take many No's in a row before they decided to throw in the towel, and decide to stop listening to me.
blackcob
🖖
Quoting for truth! 'No' rolls off a spitz like water off a duck's back. I am not personally averse to a no or an ap-AP! but with spitzy things I find it better to keep that in the bag for when you really need it, and the rest of the time try desperately to manufacture situations in which it's not necessary. ?
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
I agree with BC and FLH. Even though labs just want to please you they can get sullen/unmotivated if you use no for training. Better ‘stop’ and regroup. They like ‘stop’ as they learn it with a ball or treat and it means good things and lets work together to resolve this.
Even if resolving this is ‘please don’t all belt up to the dpd courier who has bravely entered the garden.’
Even if resolving this is ‘please don’t all belt up to the dpd courier who has bravely entered the garden.’
CorvusCorax
Justified & Ancient
To me the words never really matter, you could say chocolate biscuits, it's the tone and the energy behind it.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
At least they don’t mind swearing!
SusieT
Well-Known Member
Shouting no at a dog isnt a sign of good ownership - training them with e.g. distraction, rewarding good behaviour, avoiding situations where they might be tempted to fail is good ownership.
If I saw someone shouting no at their dog or grabbing their dog roughly and dragging it off I'd be raising an eyebrow but unless any abuse would assume they were just stressed and had had an ownership failure which can happen to all of them.
We can all fail sometimes, and all shout when stressed but actually the ones I am impressed by are the ones using distraction/reward and whose dogs are focused on them.
If I saw someone shouting no at their dog or grabbing their dog roughly and dragging it off I'd be raising an eyebrow but unless any abuse would assume they were just stressed and had had an ownership failure which can happen to all of them.
We can all fail sometimes, and all shout when stressed but actually the ones I am impressed by are the ones using distraction/reward and whose dogs are focused on them.
P3LH
Well-Known Member
Despite the title, the point of my initial post was my surprise at the lack of any sort correction in general—not the literal use of the word no.
P3LH
Well-Known Member
I am having to frequent said park at the moment as our usual walk nearer to home which is fields, footpaths and forest galore has resulted in a serious number of dogs, including my in-laws pair which ended up spending several days in the vets with 50/50 pull through, being sick and subsequently diagnosed with seasonal canine illness—which I’ve not heard of before but all seems around this spot.
I am not massively enjoying new walk, I’m antisocial and miserable at the best of times so prefer walks without human interaction—but that’s just me!
FinnishLapphund
There's no cow on the ice
You may only be raising your eyebrows, but I don't understand why you, or anyone else, needs to be judgemental, and equal shouting No at a dog to ownership failure.
Unless an owner is actually abusing their dog, I think dog owners can use whatever works for them and their dog, and I much rather see an owner roughly grab, and drag away their dog, than meet an out of control dog who doesn't listen to their owner.
CorvusCorax
Justified & Ancient
Lol, shouting occasionally to break focus doesn't mean one never uses any form of distraction or positive training.
Dogs deal in black and white. Grey doesn't work for them. Keeping them in a happy world where nothing bad ever happens is what causes total breakdowns when the stress comes from an external source, IME.
They don't know right from wrong unless we show them.
We don't expect ourselves or our horses to go through life without ever meeting a negative experience, I don't know why we expect it of dogs.
Even children now get resilience training to deal with the stresses and strains of life.
Dogs deal in black and white. Grey doesn't work for them. Keeping them in a happy world where nothing bad ever happens is what causes total breakdowns when the stress comes from an external source, IME.
They don't know right from wrong unless we show them.
We don't expect ourselves or our horses to go through life without ever meeting a negative experience, I don't know why we expect it of dogs.
Even children now get resilience training to deal with the stresses and strains of life.
Quoth
Well-Known Member
‘No’ isn’t a dirty word.
‘Crevis’ is a dirty word
I don’t see how you train a dog without some form of correction. That said I also think that a gentle correction while they’re still winding up to an undesirable behaviour is far more useful than a hard correction once they’ve committed to whatever antics are on their mind.
I train ‘Leave it!’ and ‘enough’ heavily, possibly excessively, when they are young but most of the time correction equates to me saying their name in the tone of “don’t you even think about it you little bugger”. My personal pet hate is people who ignore their dogs winding up and then ball ineffectually at them when things have got out of hand. I try not to yell at my dogs unless absolutely necessary if only because once you’re doing a gunnery Sargent Hartman impression, where do you go from there? My aversion to choke chains is similar, 90% of the time they are excessive and the other 10% they are insufficient.
I think a lot of the problem is not so much the use of positive or negative reinforcement but rather people failing to train their dogs appropriately, if at all. In my experience the more intense working lines/breeds actually seem happiest when they have clear and hard boundaries. Mountain dogs with their tendency towards good natured disobedience would not respond so well to the same tactics.
There is also the issue where a large group of people who want a show line lab in a dobe or malinois package, and will continue to delude themselves that this is what they’ve got in spite of all behavioural evidence to the contrary. We have a family with a lurcher described to me as a “bullgrey mali” (apparently a staffie/greyhound x malinois) who are very much of that ilk and consequently their dog is a spectacular pain in the arse.
I live in an area with quite a lot of military personnel. A common pattern in the young military families is for Dad to go and buy a high drive or aggressive dog because he “doesn’t want anything whimpy...” They all have fun playing with a cute cuddly puppy then Dad disappears off on deployment leaving Mum a single parent, managing the house hold alone, looking after several young kids and an adolescent dog who’s temperament is rapidly changing from Mr cuddles to something far less handleable.
‘Crevis’ is a dirty word
I don’t see how you train a dog without some form of correction. That said I also think that a gentle correction while they’re still winding up to an undesirable behaviour is far more useful than a hard correction once they’ve committed to whatever antics are on their mind.
I train ‘Leave it!’ and ‘enough’ heavily, possibly excessively, when they are young but most of the time correction equates to me saying their name in the tone of “don’t you even think about it you little bugger”. My personal pet hate is people who ignore their dogs winding up and then ball ineffectually at them when things have got out of hand. I try not to yell at my dogs unless absolutely necessary if only because once you’re doing a gunnery Sargent Hartman impression, where do you go from there? My aversion to choke chains is similar, 90% of the time they are excessive and the other 10% they are insufficient.
I think a lot of the problem is not so much the use of positive or negative reinforcement but rather people failing to train their dogs appropriately, if at all. In my experience the more intense working lines/breeds actually seem happiest when they have clear and hard boundaries. Mountain dogs with their tendency towards good natured disobedience would not respond so well to the same tactics.
There is also the issue where a large group of people who want a show line lab in a dobe or malinois package, and will continue to delude themselves that this is what they’ve got in spite of all behavioural evidence to the contrary. We have a family with a lurcher described to me as a “bullgrey mali” (apparently a staffie/greyhound x malinois) who are very much of that ilk and consequently their dog is a spectacular pain in the arse.
I live in an area with quite a lot of military personnel. A common pattern in the young military families is for Dad to go and buy a high drive or aggressive dog because he “doesn’t want anything whimpy...” They all have fun playing with a cute cuddly puppy then Dad disappears off on deployment leaving Mum a single parent, managing the house hold alone, looking after several young kids and an adolescent dog who’s temperament is rapidly changing from Mr cuddles to something far less handleable.
AmyMay
Situation normal
I’ve realised I rarely use the word ‘no’, but a host of others if required to direct the dogs to do what I want.
But if I do say no, the dogs (?) react pretty quickly and sharply.
As others have said, it’s not the word it’s the intonation.
But if I do say no, the dogs (?) react pretty quickly and sharply.
As others have said, it’s not the word it’s the intonation.
Widgeon
Well-Known Member
Yes, our terrier is rather like this. I don't let him get into situations where I know it's going to be really hard for him to behave appropriately (off lead + open field + rabbits, for example), but on the thankfully rare occasions when that does happen, it's a *serious* "no" or "stop" and it usually freezes him to the spot. Tbh I suspect it's the tone of voice that does it really!
Widgeon
Well-Known Member
So true! The Voice of (terrified) Rage.....I think it comes out about once a year and it's always worked so far.
Moobli
Well-Known Member
What do you mean by hard on their dogs though - and how do you know the dogs aren't traumatised by the treatment? Sheepdogs tend to live for work so will put aside fear and trauma to work sheep. We have one or two collies that are terrified of lightning and thunder, but who will work through their fear because the instinct is so strong, likewise I have known sheepdogs continue to work with dislocated joints and even broken legs as though they were of no consequence. Sheepdogs in my experience often tend to love the work rather more than they do their handler.
Moobli
Well-Known Member
PUPPY???!! What have I missed? You turn your back for five minutes ....
Moobli
Well-Known Member
I don't use no very often, but don't think less of any dog owners that do. As has been said several times, it is the tone and energy used in any distraction/correction word that matters to the dog. I do try to give an alternative behaviour to the unwanted one rather than just saying no, especially when training pups and younger dogs as to me it makes more sense to focus on what you do want the dog to do.
My dogs are all taught boundaries from pups and so corrections are needed less and less as the dog matures ... that is the theory anyway. My prey driven wolf monster bitch is giving me a headache or two chasing deer and hares just now, and is taking some convincing that I really would rather she didn't. I haven't resorted to the electric collar yet ....
JOKE!
My dogs are all taught boundaries from pups and so corrections are needed less and less as the dog matures ... that is the theory anyway. My prey driven wolf monster bitch is giving me a headache or two chasing deer and hares just now, and is taking some convincing that I really would rather she didn't. I haven't resorted to the electric collar yet ....
JOKE!