Is Racing detrimental to the horse's welfare?

[dominobrown]

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5491504_adrenaline-rush-symptoms.html
There are some rather dry articles about it on google scholar.
At least there are vets on hand, so horses are treated ASAP.

 

[Floretta90]

When horses get to a certain level of pain adhrenaline kicks in and they feel nothing. When racing they are already full of adhrenaline so again, they feel nothing.

This has to be the quote of the day, ive never heard such a load of bull**** in a long time!!!!

Yes they feel nothing as their leg snaps in half

This may be true, but that still doesn't make everything okay!

 

[dominobrown]

Yep scientists and vets know nothing

 

[Floretta90]

Just going to pick up on that, as I do know enough to say fairly confidently that actually a horse's body is very effective at 'blocking' pain such as that of a broken limb. Equally, if their leg goes they do have almost instantaneous vet access, and will be put put of any pain straight away.

Things like colic cause a horse far more pain.

Oh right so because they cannot feel it, that makes everything okay!

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Yep scientists and vets know nothing

Clearly not! Why oh why do we evr bother listening to them?!?

 

[dominobrown]

No it doesn't. Lets invest in more safety features, and better scientific and veterinary to be able to cure and help more horse.
Floretta- What is your soloution? What would you do different?

 

[friesian80]

Just going to pick up on that, as I do know enough to say fairly confidently that actually a horse's body is very effective at 'blocking' pain such as that of a broken limb. Equally, if their leg goes they do have almost instantaneous vet access, and will be put put of any pain straight away.

Things like colic cause a horse far more pain.

Oh jesus it just gets better!!!! You know its the same for humans, adrenalin kicks in if we are in pain so perhaps if I creep up on you without you noticing and give a quick swing with my baseball bat and break your legs you wont feel a thing

I cant quite believe the mentality of the last 2 comments, just goes to show really!!!!............

 

[Lolo]

Oh right so because they cannot feel it, that makes everything okay!

Yes, I routinely go round smashing horses legs in because they won't feel it. It's funny.

Don't be a cretin, it's never ok. It's not ok that I've seen horses die standing still at a PC rally, or warming up for a 2'9 hunter trial. It's not ok that horses anywhere can be hurt through horrifying freak accidents. But how about we ban everything. Everyone can stay at home and watch their horses in a field, wild and untouched so they can only be hurt through their own stupidity....

And, FWIW, we're different from horses. We have a different body and a different brain and a different way of dealing with pain. Please do some research!

 

[kit279]

I suspect quite a lot of the opinions on this thread are formed, not through going to see evidence first hand but through reading articles or threads on this forum. The reality is inevitably going to be different. And I've been to a fair few racing yards of late and they're all different but I've not yet seen anything that had me grimacing in the slightest.

The reality is that there are owners out there who love racing for racing's sake. They are not the stereotype that people are making out on here - they are people who love their sport and their horses and breed very special very cherished pets who they send into training. A friend of mine once said that there is no more special feeling than watching a horse that you've bred winning a race and I can well believe that.

In short, I would encourage anyone and everyone on this thread to GO TO A RACING YARD. Spend time there. See it for yourself. Do not take my word or anyone else's word for it. Then you can make your own judgements. But until you have actually seen it, then you are working on uninformed hearsay and people who do work in racing will rightly be appalled at the generalisations you are posting.

 

[friesian80]

And, FWIW, we're different from horses. We have a different body and a different brain and a different way of dealing with pain. Please do some research!

Ermmm humans also get a burst of adrenalin, which masks pain....I cant quite believe some ppl are trying to justifty the horrific injurues horse endure on the track by stating adrenalin takes all the wrong doing out of it........

Im stumpt, totally stumpt, all I can say is your vision is very blurry as is a LOT of racing fans are.

Over and out on this one, im not going to carry on pointing out the obvious in these ridiculous quotes!!!!!!

 

[Dobiegirl]

I suspect quite a lot of the opinions on this thread are formed, not through going to see evidence first hand but through reading articles or threads on this forum. The reality is inevitably going to be different. And I've been to a fair few racing yards of late and they're all different but I've not yet seen anything that had me grimacing in the slightest.

The reality is that there are owners out there who love racing for racing's sake. They are not the stereotype that people are making out on here - they are people who love their sport and their horses and breed very special very cherished pets who they send into training. A friend of mine once said that there is no more special feeling than watching a horse that you've bred winning a race and I can well believe that.

In short, I would encourage anyone and everyone on this thread to GO TO A RACING YARD. Spend time there. See it for yourself. Do not take my word or anyone else's word for it. Then you can make your own judgements. But until you have actually seen it, then you are working on uninformed hearsay and people who do work in racing will rightly be appalled at the generalisations you are posting.

This is absolutely spot on.

I never reply to any post unless I have first hand knowledge.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Im stumpt, totally stumpt, all I can say is your vision is very blurry as is a LOT of racing fans are.

I work in racing and I have, very unfortunately, had to see to my charges when they injure themselves during a race. What goes through my head when I go to the aid of said horse? How serious is it? Can he come home and be a field ornament with me? Now 9/10 this is the case. They can mostly be fixed and raced again, others can be patched up and sent off to be normal horses and a very, very small percentage don't come home. Until you have had to try to hang onto a horse that is wired to the moon, all the other horses have galloped away from it and you are trying to get the horse to stand still enough for the vets to assess the damage and then put them to sleep you can't tell me they feel their injuries!

I wouldn't wish having to run down those tracks to their beloved charges on anyone but sometimes I really do wish the general public would wake up and smell the coffee!

Acutally no! You know what! Go and find the race footage and aftermath of Rewilding's race where he broke his leg! 2f from home - snap! Jockey gets piumelled to the floor, horse gallops on up the home straight after the other horses. Get's caught, one look and they know he can't be saved. The screens are up by this point - right in front of the grand stands - and he is PTS. John Gosdon then goes and speaks to the press explaining that the horse wouldn't have felt a thing - hence he kept galloping. Gosdon is a very well respected man in racing - he has been there, seen it, done it, won and got the t-shirt. Oh and he is also a fully qualified vet.

 

[popsdosh]

The OP has devalued the poll no end and the reason for it by their Prejudiced outburst .What were you trying to achieve I dont think at the moment you have the outcome you had hoped for

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Just as a side thought - how many of you anti-racing folks thought it was ever so sad to see the Show Jumper Hickstead die the other week but said 'at least he went doing what he loved'? Racehorses are exactly the same - they love their jobs. They wouldn't start or they would meander out the back if they didn't. Hickstead used the same amount of energy, force, talent and will to get round that course as a racehorse, he just used it in a different way. I'm on my phone so can't start a new paragraph *roles eyes* but I am just returning from first lot on the gallops. My horse is clearly crazy and institutionalised in the head as I am sat holding onto the buckle end of my reins with one hand, typing this with the other, feet kicked out of the irons sauntering home how he pleases! Up the gallops he was keen, not because he was scared or bullied into it but because he wanted to go!

 

[cptrayes]

I have 4 ex-racers here at home and I have seen them mutual groom 2 or 3 times in 3 years so not every horse wishes to groom another.

Did they start as flat racers or were they stores? If they started as flat racers, they may well have had a non-socialised life from birth, or at the very least from beginning breaking at 18 months or so and never learned normal horse behaviour. This is exactly the kind of "character" that I am talking about taking around 4 months to develop when you take a young flat racer out of training. If yours were older when they stopped, then it was probably too late for them ever to learn it. Either that, or they are not turned out without any other horses who do "speak horse" to learn it from, maybe?

I have been to racing yards. Yards full of boxes with anti-weave bars on every single box. Horses standing nodding their heads up and down incessantly because the bars stop them weaving.

I have retrained and rehomed ten ex flat racers of 3 or 4 years old. Each one took months when turned out with other horses to behave as a "normal" horse does. Each character changed over those months to what I believe is the "true" character of that horse. After that experience, I cannot accept that flat racers are anything but institutionalised, and that in an ideal world they would not be that way.

I am NOT against racing. I just want you all to be honest about it and open your eyes to the truth about the way these horses are used to make money. It isn't wrong, it creates huge employment for people who need the income. But let's be honest here, if you told the bunny hugging horse loving public the truth about wastage rates, you'd have a riot on your hands. I am crucified on this forum every time I tell people that I believe in occasionally hitting my horses!

I note also that no-one can give the statistics I asked for? You personally have ONE ex chaser who retired completely uninjured? My friend owned two hurdlers, one after the other, and both retired severely damaged. If you really want people to accept that racing is so benign, give us the statistics!

 

[popsdosh]

See this is the dilema you want us to give you statistics but you cannot come up with any yourself to support your view.
If you ask them the racing authorities actually have these figures and will happily let you have them ,I very much doubt BE ,BD or BS could or would do the same.
Why are you singling out racing when you yourself in another thread tell of a KWPN that you cannot hack and sounds a right head case,I assume this must have raced then!! to have all these issues.

 

[NeilM]

Can I please ask, how many of you who would like to see racing stopped or who think it is cruel own TB's?

If it were not for racing, TB's would not exists, they are, like so many horse (and dog) breeds, man's creation and they were created to race.

I don't know very much about racing yards, but I do KNOW, as fact, that trainers including some very big names, regularly ring around welfare and other centres, asking if they could help locate owners for good horses that have not or will not make the grade. If those professionals did not care about the welfare of every single horse in their care, do you really think they would spend the time to do that?

I'm sure there are poor racing yards, but I would put money on the fact that they would be a darn site harder to find than poor livery yards, or fields filled with miserable looking cobs, or dealers with sick, injured or drugged horses in their 'care' (I use the term in it's loosest possible application).

 

[rhino]

But they get do not live a proper life, they are never turned out, fed all sorts, some of them are given drugs, owners probably do not have the right amount of patience with them, and if they are that unlucky to die on the track, the owner is already thinking about the next race horse he/she's gonna get whilst sorting out the horse that's just died! It's all about the money, and thousands of horses are dying because they do not have a choice!

This is probably the most ignorant post I have ever read on HHO And no, OP, I am not a 'racing fan' but will not stand by and see such a misleading, untrue representation of the sport.

 

[Miss L Toe]

Flat horses are raced when there is a lot going on in their development, often this can lead to injuries but not always.
To be honest most TBs get a good life in racing, are well fed and stabled at night all their lives, handled by professionals and pretty much well treated.
Obviously too many are bred, and this is the problem, particularly when a recession bites, but welfare issues are found across the board in the horse industry, and in my experience, a racehorse trainer [there are a few exceptions] will be prioritise the welfare and well being of the horses in their charge, and the yard is a busy place, open to scrutiny, far more than a small training establishment in other disciplines.

 

[cptrayes]

See this is the dilema you want us to give you statistics but you cannot come up with any yourself to support your view.
If you ask them the racing authorities actually have these figures and will happily let you have them ,I very much doubt BE ,BD or BS could or would do the same.
Why are you singling out racing when you yourself in another thread tell of a KWPN that you cannot hack and sounds a right head case,I assume this must have raced then!! to have all these issues.

How can an individual like me produce the statistics? There are militant charities out there that can't get hold of them. I have googled them to death and as far as I can see they are unavailable. The only thing I can find is deaths per RUNNER which is disingenuous to say the least when horses run multiple times in their lives. The figure I can find is unsubstatiated, which is 1 in 31 national hunt horses, not runners, die in or shortly after a race.

My crazy KWPN is indeed a product of overselective breeding in Holland. Two wrongs do not make a right.

BD, BE and BS are not run as industries, they are sports done mostly by private individuals. BE death figures in competition are available. BD - don't make me laugh, dressage does not kill horses, even overtraining them only strains a tendon mildly before it is spotted! I can't speak for BS.

The more you guys fight the truthful bits in this thread, the more stupid you make yourselves look.

Admit the bits that aren't so good. JUSTIFY and SELL the rest, the industry contributes a lot to this country.

 

[cptrayes]

Let me give you some pointers for how to approach this?

Ask the sceptics:


How many people are you prepared to see put on the dole and even made homeless (lots of lads live in) to stop horses dying racing?

How much more tax are you personally prepared to pay to cover the loss of tax and the increase in benefit payments to out of work racing and betting staff to stop horses being treated in a way in which you personally do not approve but that is completely legal?

Horse racing, because of the amount of revenue it generates, has created advances in veterinary medicine that benefit every horse owner in the country (credit to EKW for this one).

Do you really think that a horse would rather not be alive at all than to die on a racecourse doing what is natural to it - racing?


I'm sure a creative ad agency could do better than me.

 

[LEC]

For a start I know lots of TBs that have rubbish feet without seeing a racecourse. Take Lucy W Shaabrak - that never saw a racecourse and yet it took hours to shoe him.

I have seen far worse treatment in eventing yards than I have seen in racing yards. In racing if they do not enjoy the job they go off and do something else or are PTS.

I had a horse break down in both tendons while having a nice ride on the beach and had to be PTS so tendon injuries can happen at anytime. It is just a numbers game with tendon injuries racing because they are more likely to be at peak performance. You cannot say that about some happy hacker cob.

As for ulcers - the stats are there for competition horses as well something like 75% will get them. In fact we are seeing more and more prevalence in the ordinary riding horse so its not surprising that race horses will get them, especially when you see what the expansion of the lungs does to the stomach. Its not just about living on grain!!

Racing is a massive industry and there are always going to be negative sides and yards not as good as others but that is the same with everything in the horse industry.

Now racing in the USA that is a subject i could go on about for hours as a completely different level of welfare issues and one you should be all far more concerned about than racing in the UK.

 

[popsdosh]

How can an individual like me produce the statistics? There are militant charities out there that can't get hold of them. I have googled them to death and as far as I can see they are unavailable. The only thing I can find is deaths per RUNNER which is disingenuous to say the least when horses run multiple times in their lives. The figure I can find is unsubstatiated, which is 1 in 31 national hunt horses, not runners, die in or shortly after a race.

You might like to look here it might open your eyes a bit you obviously thought they had something to hide and were not open about.It does not take a lot of finding and is available to anybody .It is easily found by anybody going to there home page.However this is the direct link in case you cannot work it out.
http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/injuries-fatalities.asp

This might open your eyes as well to the amount of work that they do.It will also answer a few questions for you doubters!
http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/horsewelfare.asp#Fatalities?

 

[humblepie]

Having recently acquired an 8 year old straight out of racing from the yard he has been in for 7 years, he is one of the least institutionalised horses you could find. He is used to being turned out in company at the racing yard and from day one with me has been turned out, tied up outside, easy to clip and pull mane/tail, hacking out in company and on his own and loves being cuddled.

 

[Floretta90]

For a start I know lots of TBs that have rubbish feet without seeing a racecourse. Take Lucy W Shaabrak - that never saw a racecourse and yet it took hours to shoe him.

I have seen far worse treatment in eventing yards than I have seen in racing yards. In racing if they do not enjoy the job they go off and do something else or are PTS.

I had a horse break down in both tendons while having a nice ride on the beach and had to be PTS so tendon injuries can happen at anytime. It is just a numbers game with tendon injuries racing because they are more likely to be at peak performance. You cannot say that about some happy hacker cob.

As for ulcers - the stats are there for competition horses as well something like 75% will get them. In fact we are seeing more and more prevalence in the ordinary riding horse so its not surprising that race horses will get them, especially when you see what the expansion of the lungs does to the stomach. Its not just about living on grain!!

Racing is a massive industry and there are always going to be negative sides and yards not as good as others but that is the same with everything in the horse industry.

Now racing in the USA that is a subject i could go on about for hours as a completely different level of welfare issues and one you should be all far more concerned about than racing in the UK.

I do agree with you, however, race horses suffer from such fatal accidents in such cruel ways, is it really true that their adrenaline kicks in if they get injured/fall/collapse on the floor?
Please go on about the racehorses in the USA?

 

[teagreen]

I do agree with you, however, race horses suffer from such fatal accidents in such cruel ways, is it really true that their adrenaline kicks in if they get injured/fall/collapse on the floor?
Please go on about the racehorses in the USA?

But horses break legs/have heart attacks in ALL sports - I've seen a show horse die of a heart attack in the ring, I've gone to catch horses in the paddock and they've trotted up to me with a swinging leg, and I've seen horses die eventing. They can die in 'cruel' ways just chilling in the field.

Obviously if I come up to you, or a horse, and break your/their leg with a bat, the pain would be incredible. However, if a horse breaks a leg on the track, or a man breaks his leg say, running from a gunman (when adrenaline will be pumping like crazy) or in the last 100m of a cross country ski race, they'll keep going and only realise when they stop and calm down that their leg hurts. But if a horse 'collapses to the floor', it's likely that it's had a heart attack or something similar, and like Hickstead a few weeks ago, they are dead when they hit the floor.

 

[dominobrown]

Gosh some of you need to take of YOUR blinkers! cptrayes- I said that welfare in racing could always be improved, and its not perfect. Everyone involved in racing would tell you that, its not perfect, agreed, but its also more transparent and less cruel than you think.

Friesian80, at least cptrayes knows what a discussion is making valid points. I said this...

No it doesn't. Lets invest in more safety features, and better scientific and veterinary to be able to cure and help more horse.
Floretta- What is your soloution? What would you do different?

and you said...

Oh jesus it just gets better!!!!
I cant quite believe the mentality of the last 2 comments, just goes to show really!!!!............

Goes to show what exactly??
If you are going to start an argument, at least finish it, instead of saying everyone else is spouting rubbish and change the subject. This is a discussion forum, so lets have a DISCUSSION

 

[cptrayes]

You might like to look here it might open your eyes a bit you obviously thought they had something to hide and were not open about.It does not take a lot of finding and is available to anybody .It is easily found by anybody going to there home page.However this is the direct link in case you cannot work it out.
http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/injuries-fatalities.asp

This might open your eyes as well to the amount of work that they do.It will also answer a few questions for you doubters!
http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/horsewelfare.asp#Fatalities?

THIS from your first reference

"At present overall about 2 in every thousand runners are fatalities. Flat and All Weather racing accounts for around 0.6 fatalities of every thousand runners, Jump racing accounts for just over 4 fatalities of every thousand runners. "

is disengenuous when the statistic people want to know is how many HORSES, not runners, die. It truly makes it look as if the industry is trying to hide something.

The pie chart in your second quote is even more disengenuous and would have a statistician spitting out his coffee. By presenting the data in a pie on an angle in pseudo 3D, they have made the area representing 19% retired to stud about four times the urface area the one representing 11% reported dead. Just co-incidence that the deaths section was put on the back of the pie, looking as small as it possibly could? I don't think so - it was done deliberately to reduce the impact. That's exactly the kind of stuff which shows that someone somewhere is trying to gloss over the truth.

I also find it absolutely impossible to believe that one in five of all horses who left racing in 2006 are retired at stud. Allowing for how many more mares are required for stud duties than males, then how many mares would be in studs if that figure were true!!! It would have to be an absolute minimum of 1 in 3, year after year. They would be stacked five high. The only credible explanations I can think of are that 2006 was an odd year (unlikely, I would suggest) or that the people who gave the information as to the whereabouts of their horses lied to give a better impression of the industry.

Frankly, your references are EXACTLY what is doing your industry harm. They are either put together by people attempting to gloss over the truth, or people who are incapable of collating a bunch of statistics.

You wonder why people are suspicious of what you are hiding. Look no further than the articles you pointed me to.

 

[Laafet]

I can't be bothered to read half of the rubbish that is being written on this post. But shall add my bit, shoot me own in flames. Someone asked to name a yard where horses are turned out in groups with shoes on all year round. When I worked at Hughie Morrison's this was the case. The younger horses were all turned out every day in cages on grass and there was a group of 4, yes 4, older horses that were turned out together everyday come rain or shine and two of those actually lived out and trained off grass. Why? because they did not like being in and were more pleasant people to deal with outside. I am not saying all trainers are like this but having worked with sports horses there are many a warmblood who is ridden in draw reins from the age of 3 and never turned out. A lot of professionally kept horses (i.e. those competing at National/International level) live a very similar existance to racehorses.
And as for it being life limiting, I have an 8 year old Connemara who has been hunted since he was 4 (with his previous owners), this week he has been diagnosed with PSD to both hind limbs. It is sad and hopefully we can get him right but as you can see he's not a race horse but he's still suffered what might end up to be a life limiting complaint.
I work on a stud so am the evil person who works in the industry. All our horses get masses of attention and we didn't breed as many foals last year due to the high stud fees and poor prices at the sales. We have one mare who has not been bred from for 3 years as her foals are not 'commercially popular', but rather than sell her on or shoot her, she is nannying the younger mares. We also have a 20 year old pregnant mare who was raced at 2 and moves like a dressage horse, she lives out and is fat and happy and not requiring to be buted everyday like a lot of riding horses of that age. You cannot make sweeping generalisations about any particular part of the equine industry.

 

[Laafet]

Oh and TBH IMO any sort of professional level horse sport can be detrimental to horse welfare. Where people's livelihoods depends on results and sales of a living creature the lines can get blurred. I can at least hold my head up high by knowing that while these horses are in my care that they get the best they can.