Is Racing detrimental to the horse's welfare?

Is Racing detrimental to the horses welfare?

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:rolleyes:
 
Laafet said:
I work on a stud so am the evil person who works in the industry. All our horses get masses of attention and we didn't breed as many foals last year due to the high stud fees and poor prices at the sales. We have one mare who has not been bred from for 3 years as her foals are not 'commercially popular', but rather than sell her on or shoot her, she is nannying the younger mares. We also have a 20 year old pregnant mare who was raced at 2 and moves like a dressage horse, she lives out and is fat and happy and not requiring to be buted everyday like a lot of riding horses of that age. You cannot make sweeping generalisations about any particular part of the equine industry.
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To make a sweeping generalisation, this sounds very similar to the stud my friend just got a job. Older mares are not just shot when they are passed it, they have 2 or 3 older ones who are not bred from. :) That particular friend was never a fan of the racing industry but now she is more involved in it, the thing that shocked her the most is the level of care all the horses recieve.

BTW last year nearly 50% less TB were born, so the overbreeding is stopping.
 
cptrayes said:
You really don't understand, do you?
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I think it is you who does not understand, of all what I wrote you picked that bit. They got turned out every day, that is more than a lot of horses get that have a pro job. I think that being turned out every day in a cage is a lot better than standing for 23 hours in a box. You are very narrow minded.
 
Laafet said:
I think it is you who does not understand, of all what I wrote you picked that bit. They got turned out every day, that is more than a lot of horses get that have a pro job. I think that being turned out every day in a cage is a lot better than standing for 23 hours in a box. You are very narrow minded.
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I understand completely. I agree with you that it is better for a 24 month old horse to be in a cage picking at grass than in a box. But that does not mean it is actually good for the horse, just better than the alternative.

Why can you guys not just say "we know it's not optimum horse welfare but we need to do it to safeguard the investment in breeding them","We do the best we can within the constraint that these animals are valuable capital assets", which is the truth?

As to all the many, many, many "dressage horses aren't allowed out either" type comments that this thread has thrown up, I say yet again

TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT.

And I say again. I am NOT against racing. But I am against blinkers on the owners and trainers when they should be on the horses.
 
Laafet said:
I think it is you who does not understand, .........
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I'm sorry cptrayes, but I have to agree with the above statement. Horses are animals, and as such, they're our servants. I will accept that as they wear a servants badge, so we have to accept our responsibilities, and generally I believe that the racing industry does just that.

This isn't a perfect world, and there are those horses, in, or having left, training, which are rather let down. I'll accept that, but to knock all horse racing, is very wrong.

Very few horses are better cared, or catered for.

Alec.
 
cptrayes said:
Why can you guys not just say "we know it's not optimum horse welfare but we need to do it to safeguard the investment in breeding them","We do the best we can within the constraint that these animals are valuable capital assets", which is the truth?
QUOTE]

Well I kind of said that... racing is not perfect, things are being done to improve welfare, and more could be done, in every horse sport.
The thing that really gets my goat is how some people are so blinkered that racing is cruel, and will not hear the other side of the argument :mad:

So cptrayes, what would you like to see change? If you had a racing yard and were a trainer what would you do? :)
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teagreen said:
But horses break legs/have heart attacks in ALL sports - I've seen a show horse die of a heart attack in the ring, I've gone to catch horses in the paddock and they've trotted up to me with a swinging leg, and I've seen horses die eventing. They can die in 'cruel' ways just chilling in the field.

Obviously if I come up to you, or a horse, and break your/their leg with a bat, the pain would be incredible. However, if a horse breaks a leg on the track, or a man breaks his leg say, running from a gunman (when adrenaline will be pumping like crazy) or in the last 100m of a cross country ski race, they'll keep going and only realise when they stop and calm down that their leg hurts. But if a horse 'collapses to the floor', it's likely that it's had a heart attack or something similar, and like Hickstead a few weeks ago, they are dead when they hit the floor.
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Thanks :) I agree.
 
dominobrown said:
Gosh some of you need to take of YOUR blinkers! cptrayes- I said that welfare in racing could always be improved, and its not perfect. Everyone involved in racing would tell you that, its not perfect, agreed, but its also more transparent and less cruel than you think.

Friesian80, at least cptrayes knows what a discussion is making valid points. I said this...


and you said...


Goes to show what exactly??
If you are going to start an argument, at least finish it, instead of saying everyone else is spouting rubbish and change the subject. This is a discussion forum, so lets have a DISCUSSION
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Haha, I do agree.
Why start a discussion if you're not going to get your point across!
 
Everyone is focusing on the good things about racing to try and make it sounds like it's okay to do! So why don't you mention the bad things?
They need to improve on how the horse's are treated whilst on the race track to TRY and PREVENT injuries/falls and deaths! But nothing is being done, the only thing that they might be stopping is the whips! I mean seriously, horses are dying from this sport, and many others, and it's horrible! I just, I don't agree with it, yes the horse's may be treated fairly, and the horse may be fit and healthy, but that's not the point, the owner may meet the 5 freedoms or whatever, but I just don't like how they are forced into the stocks, they may love racing, doesn't mean its right. Jockeys may love the horses that they race yeah, but you cannot tell me that they will not be that little bit gutted if that horse doesn't win!
 
dominobrown said:
cptrayes said:
So cptrayes, what would you like to see change? If you had a racing yard and were a trainer what would you do? :)
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I am not against racing. I am not against racing. I am not against racing. Got it yet?

What I would I change? I would change the powers that run the industry who I believe are actively avoiding producing the statistics that people need to make up their minds about how harmful or otherwise they think racing is. They make the sport look dodgy by their actions.

Can anyone explain to me the 1 in 5 going to stud statistic? I cannot make it stack up. I have it scrawled all over a piece of paper and I have mares, foals, yearlings and horses going into training as 2 year olds coming out of my ears within 5 years.


I am not against racing. I am not against racing. I am not against racing. But the industry's PR machine is failing badly. Got it yet?



ps Why on earth would I want to be a Racing Trainer :)?
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Laafet said:
I can't be bothered to read half of the rubbish that is being written on this post. But shall add my bit, shoot me own in flames. Someone asked to name a yard where horses are turned out in groups with shoes on all year round. When I worked at Hughie Morrison's this was the case. The younger horses were all turned out every day in cages on grass and there was a group of 4, yes 4, older horses that were turned out together everyday come rain or shine and two of those actually lived out and trained off grass. Why? because they did not like being in and were more pleasant people to deal with outside. I am not saying all trainers are like this but having worked with sports horses there are many a warmblood who is ridden in draw reins from the age of 3 and never turned out. A lot of professionally kept horses (i.e. those competing at National/International level) live a very similar existance to racehorses.
And as for it being life limiting, I have an 8 year old Connemara who has been hunted since he was 4 (with his previous owners), this week he has been diagnosed with PSD to both hind limbs. It is sad and hopefully we can get him right but as you can see he's not a race horse but he's still suffered what might end up to be a life limiting complaint.
I work on a stud so am the evil person who works in the industry. All our horses get masses of attention and we didn't breed as many foals last year due to the high stud fees and poor prices at the sales. We have one mare who has not been bred from for 3 years as her foals are not 'commercially popular', but rather than sell her on or shoot her, she is nannying the younger mares. We also have a 20 year old pregnant mare who was raced at 2 and moves like a dressage horse, she lives out and is fat and happy and not requiring to be buted everyday like a lot of riding horses of that age. You cannot make sweeping generalisations about any particular part of the equine industry.
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^^^ nice post
 
How is that going to help - Statistics can be manipulated in anyway you chose to. Return of Mares, came out last week that has a wealth of info in it. I think it is very hard to account for every single racehorse and even harder to account for every single horse in the UK. I have bought two ex racers myself, whom I schooled and sold on to riding club homes, but I did not tell Weatherbys of the change of ownership or withdraw from racing, therefore there are atleast two horses that went on to a lovely life after racing whom are not accounted for. However my own riding horse was registered as a 5 year old and has only one owner registered, yet I know him to be Irish and had 4 owners (including me), a bit off the point but basically I am trying to show how hard to get the information you want might no be so simple.
'I would change the powers that run the industry who I believe are actively avoiding producing the statistics that people need to make up their minds about how harmful or otherwise they think racing is.' to generalise they are made up a bunch of dinosaurs who are very set in their ways, this is changing slowly but I don't see how this will change anything that directly affects the TB in its racing career.
 
cptrayes said:
.......
I am not against racing. I am not against racing. I am not against racing. But the industry's PR machine is failing badly. Got it yet?.......
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No, in truth I haven't. I'm doing my level best though.

So it isn't racing, per se, that your opposed to, but the PR machine. it may well be that I'm being thick, but I cannot understand your apparently shifting argument.

Take a deep breath, and explain, clearly what it is, that you don't like. Should you argue that there's room for improvement, you may well get a round of applause, as most would agree with you, and whilst agreeing with you, are working towards a better racing world.

A.
 
cptrayes said:
THIS from your first reference

"At present overall about 2 in every thousand runners are fatalities. Flat and All Weather racing accounts for around 0.6 fatalities of every thousand runners, Jump racing accounts for just over 4 fatalities of every thousand runners. "

is disengenuous when the statistic people want to know is how many HORSES, not runners, die. It truly makes it look as if the industry is trying to hide something.

The pie chart in your second quote is even more disengenuous and would have a statistician spitting out his coffee. By presenting the data in a pie on an angle in pseudo 3D, they have made the area representing 19% retired to stud about four times the urface area the one representing 11% reported dead. Just co-incidence that the deaths section was put on the back of the pie, looking as small as it possibly could? I don't think so - it was done deliberately to reduce the impact. That's exactly the kind of stuff which shows that someone somewhere is trying to gloss over the truth.

I also find it absolutely impossible to believe that one in five of all horses who left racing in 2006 are retired at stud. Allowing for how many more mares are required for stud duties than males, then how many mares would be in studs if that figure were true!!! It would have to be an absolute minimum of 1 in 3, year after year. They would be stacked five high. The only credible explanations I can think of are that 2006 was an odd year (unlikely, I would suggest) or that the people who gave the information as to the whereabouts of their horses lied to give a better impression of the industry.

Frankly, your references are EXACTLY what is doing your industry harm. They are either put together by people attempting to gloss over the truth, or people who are incapable of collating a bunch of statistics.

You wonder why people are suspicious of what you are hiding. Look no further than the articles you pointed me to.
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You were the one who said these figures were not available and now they are, you are questioning their validity.This is not a one off year it is ongoing work the reasoning behind 2006 being chosen is mentioned in the text if you really want to know the truth.See some people will not believe what is put in front of them even after they have asked for it.
I do not see your issue with the way fatality figures are given .Surely most people really want to know the true risk to a horse each time it runs which these figures clearly do were as a total number of fatalities is meaningless unless you know how many horses have raced and how many times so we get back to the figure quoted.
As for having problems with the Pie chart I am totally flabergasted that you think they are trying to hide something the horse death are given the same prominence as horses going into other disciplines,also the percentage is clearly stated or are we all to thick to work that out. Perhaps the real issue is that these figures would not support your shock horror approach to the treatment of TBs. Please also remember these figures are for up to 5 yrs after the end of their racing career would people trying to hide something not take a bit more snapshot timeline to try and keep the death figure lower.One thing is for certain in those 5yrs none of the dead horses will have come back to life,as good as some trainers maybe.
If you dont wish to believe the figures why ask for them in the first place,nearly all animal welfare charities accept them as valid apart from the extreme bunny huggers and infact praise them for being so open. Every horse that dies on a British racecourse has an individual report lodged and as far as I am aware they are all post mortemed for this research they are not hiding it it is all out there to be seen.Nobody likes to see horses die or be injured but it happens im afraid,however out of all horse activities racing is the most open and produce the figures whether they be good or bad.
As it has been stated all horse sport is detrimental to the horse in some way ,just domesticating them started that but thats another story .If I were a horse I would rather be a racehorse than your common plod owned by the high proportion of numpties who seem to have horses in the pleasure world(and a high proportion of these are ex racers because they are cheap) that is were the true welfare issues are but I dont suppose that is relevant either. I personally take responsibility for every horse I own ,if I am unable to keep them for any reason I will do my best to find them a suitable home .However if this proves impossible I would not hesitate to have the horse culled rather than it end up in the wrong hands.
 
Laafet said:
I am trying to show how hard to get the information you want might no be so simple.
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i can see that, but there is no defence for presenting statistics that are available in a fashion specifically designed to deceive, as that pie chart is :( Seeing it has actually made me believe that the industry really is trying to hide something.

Laafet said:
to generalise they are made up a bunch of dinosaurs who are very set in their ways, this is changing slowly but I don't see how this will change anything that directly affects the TB in its racing career.
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The industry needs to change the public perception. Manipulating a pie chart in the most cynical way, as was done, and refusing to give death stats as horses in training instead of runners, is causing suspicion which the industry needs to get a grip on if it does not want to see anti's at racecourses.

I never said that I wanted anything changed about racing. Yes, it's detrimental, so are lots of things that horses do. I hunted my own today and he could have broken his neck, or mine. That's life. I accept it.

I AM NOT AGAINST RACING. It is not ME that you need to change anything for. I REALLY AM TRYING TO HELP YOU GUYS UNDERSTAND why you, especially NH, are going to be next on the horsey anti's list if they manage to get foxhunting put to bed.

Racing needs to explain why you do the things you do rationally, and stop saying "nah nah but other people do things just as bad or worse" or describing keeping 24 month old horses in a box or a cage as "treating them like kings and queens". That kind of thing is never going to get you anywhere on this forum, which is heavily populated with bunny huggers as I know to my own cost :)
 
Perhaps the use of 'cage' was too emmotive, maybe I should have used the term 'turn out pen'. What does racing need to explain in a rational way? I have showed how the people I worked for have tried hard to provide the best for the horses in their care, doing things that are not considered the norm etc. Things have changed a lot in the 10 years I have been working with racehorses and most of it is for the better, some of the US practices that have crept over here less so, but in general it is better now. Personally when talking about manipulating thoughts by constantly calling 2 year olds 24 months olds is a good example........
 
Alec Swan said:
No, in truth I haven't. I'm doing my level best though.

So it isn't racing, per se, that your opposed to, but the PR machine. it may well be that I'm being thick, but I cannot understand your apparently shifting argument.

Take a deep breath, and explain, clearly what it is, that you don't like. Should you argue that there's room for improvement, you may well get a round of applause, as most would agree with you, and whilst agreeing with you, are working towards a better racing world.

A.
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I dislike the fact that although racing very clearly IS detrimental to horses, people involved won't just admit it, but keep trying to tell people like me who are not stupid, that it is not. Just because I can see that it is detrimental to a steeplechaser to break its neck does NOT mean that I am opposed to the industry that creates that situation, or that I think it should be stopped. I don't. I think it will be stupid if they make the National any easier. If they do, it won't BE the National. I just want openness and honesty. Got it now?

I think the industry's PR is doing it no favours at all and I do believe that they are attempting to hide the true attrition rates. They know the number of horses in training. To give stats by number of runners is disengenuous and they do it because it looks so much more benign a figure to the general public. No half trained statistician would accept that pie chart, it is practically fraudulent.
 
cptrayes said:
....... why you, especially NH, are going to be next on the horsey anti's list if they manage to get foxhunting put to bed.......
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If, quote "they manage to put foxhunting to bed"? :confused:

Having read your posts on the hunting forum, could you not have exchanged the word "they", for "we"? You appear to be doing your level best!

A.
 
Here are the fiigures that cptrayes seems to crave but remember these are only on the actual racecourse.
In 2006 there were 10,954 horses not runs Flat racing there were 36 fatalities.
in the same year 9,783 NH horses not runs there were 141 fatalities.

I am sure this will not satisfy you as they are not sensational enough, I could give you figures for other years but I kept it to this one because those were the statistics you were questioning .I think if you want them for other years work it out yourself the figures are all there not hidden.
 
Alec Swan said:
If, quote "they manage to put foxhunting to bed"? :confused:

Having read your posts on the hunting forum, could you not have exchanged the word "they", for "we"? You appear to be doing your level best!

A.
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Thankyou alec, it all becomes a bit clearer now. I do hope that cptrayes (writing name from memory), is not one of those ignorant people who comes and screams at me when I go blood hounding, that thinks it is acceptable to slap horses with whips etc because their rider has chosen to go hunting etc.
I digress, I think that going on about the PR is a bit of non starter, you have not said exactly you would change or want to know? I regularly get questionnaires from BHA about improving the industry and I pointed out that betting is the route of all evil really, although we need it for funding, although with the off shore bookies we don't get any of that, and that more focus should be on the horse.
Do you watch Morning Line? There are some very good discussions on there with knowledgeable racing people who do not all sing off the same hymn sheet. They talked about the whip ban recently and two year old racing was brought up, you would be surprised at the level of support for not racing two year olds that there is within the racing community. I have ridden a lot of 2 year olds and you know which will win and perform at two and which won't. A good trainer will recognise this and send the ones that can't cope home, where they inevitably end up being turned out in a group in as you imagine an equine utopia.
 
Every racing yard and stud is different- you just can't generalise.

Lots of national hunt trainers turn the horses out in herds every day,when they are fit & in training.

Lots of yards, flat and jump, give the horses regular holidays out in the field, especially, usually always when their racing season has finished. All out in herds together.
Especially flat racers bred by British studs- they all 'come home' for their holidays.

I agree that yearlings starting work at 18 months old is wrong, but quite often all they are doing is just hacking out. A lot of them won't start canter work until their 3 year olds if they are not looking mature enough.
Have had a lot of exracehorses over the years- mentally some were fantastic, well adjusted individuals & others were just completly bewildered & institutionalised , shut down animals. It just depends on the horse itself and what yard they came from. I had one of last years grand national entrants here at home - he was one of the top rated chasers in the country 2 years ago & was given to me as a point2 pointer after injury- and he was the coolest, most chilled out easy horse ever, & the safest hack ever.
My point is you just can't generalise with racing.
 
Are there any statistics available for how many leisure horses die in use each year??
What happens to all the unwanted riding horses, native ponies and over-breeds we have in the country.
I would think the welfare issues surrounding them are much more horrific than those regarding race horses.
Unless we have all the figures, you just cannot comment.
 
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