Is there any point to showing?

Is dressage not a bit like showing, at the end of the day you are being judged by one person, if they doent like they way your horse goes no matter how perfect you wont win. The only sports that is fair is jumping and racing, you either come 1st or jump clear.

In my youth I threw my horse over large jumps, scared the pants off my parents eventing and now as an older and more aware I dont bounce person I like Showing.

And yes my M&M an I are pretty good at it, I also feel I have every right to get a mention in the H&H as much as some one who likes making their horse go in ever decreasing circles whilest nodding their head or the peron who wants to fling their horse over large fences.
 
TeamTotilas said:
'LittleSoph' like I said I'm not trying to offend anyone, this is an interesting discussion and if you find my views so offensive then there's no need to be here. Like I said, just because I'm not changing my mind doesn't mean I'm not listening.
Dressage is completely different because it is about performing specific movements, not just doing a 'show'. Compare the movements to obstacles in showjumping or cross country. This is coupled with the guidelines of the scales of training that accompany the movements and how the horse is going. If you are saying that someone believing that a horse isn't "true to type", which I have witnessed many a person disagree on, is the same as someone determining whether a horse has performed a movement, then I'm afraid I'm not the one to help you!
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Okaaay... I don't understand why you thought I found your views offensive, or why you said there's no need to be here...?? I was only replying to a discussion that I thought was going on?? A little confused. I only asked a question. Sorry if it was a wrong one?!

Tbh, I wasn't riled by this one little bit, just giving the other side of the coin... but you seem upset by that and some of the things you are saying now just sound uneducated and misguided. It smacks of an opinion that has been formed on hearsay, stereotypes and assumptions tbh as you clearly don't really know anything about showing, so I'm not going to continue the 'discussion' just to get an earbashing back...
Opting out now.
 
TeamTotilas said:
'Martlin' you say that dressage is just as subjective as showing but I disagree. I think that BD judges are very good and rarely have I seen a horse win that I don't think did the movements correctly. The judges are trained to judge the horse on how it performs it movements along with how it's ridden and it's carriage etc. I think proof of this is that you don't see dressage riders moaning about judges, only showing riders, although this could just be a product of the people..... :-) Jokes!

Referring to "toomanyhorses26", I know that some showing horses do other sports, it just seems pointless to me if they do well at them then why go showing?
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I've heard dressage riders complain and moan, left, right and centre...
Any sport judged by judges on 'guidelines' how something should look like is going to be subjective, the only objective ones are SJ and jumping phases of eventing... I would imagine polo and racing are fairly objective, as well as endurance... can't think of any other equestrian sports atm:)
Showing has also very clear guidelines how horses should be judged... same as dressage;)
 
I wish showrings were full of well-mannered, lean and fit animals which had not been intensively produced, and all-comers had an equal chance of winning. When you hear things like - 'it was a foregone conclusion (a) horse was going to win HOYS', (and this from a close connection of said dead cert) then the shine is well and truly taken off.

It is names and money and the sacrifice of a natural life in too many cases. Laminitis hovers over these horses and I defy anyone to judge the stripped down confo of these barrage ballons. The three show horses which were out hunting - all lardy creatures which had yet to get a speck of mud on them if memory serves. And there were many comments in that vien at the time the pic was published.

Our showjumpers (and I use that term very loosely) have the minimum coat removed to keep them comfy, go out in the field daily, are NOT fed exciting products and compete happily to 1.20m on haylage. They shine, are successful and never over-jumped. We compete against names and if we win, then it's because we were the best. End of.

I had better go before I go on a rant about morbidly obese animals still lining up to take the ribbons. I want to see a revolution in judging and the most ironic thing ever was the weighscales April Fool H&H ran. I think before an animal enters the ring, if it is anything above a 3 on the fat scale, it needs to be turned away and the owner fined and ordered to get the animal's weight down or face prosecution.
 
TeamTotilas said:
I understand this point 'LittleSoph', but all I hear from showing people is 'produce'... Using your example of showjumping, an incredible amount of producing goes into these horses, albeit in a different (and I would argue more technical and skillfull) way. Their turnout and preparation and similarly as important.
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Surely produce is just more glamourous sounding than bring on?
 
But isnt it the same in dressage that it is a dead cert that certain horses or riders will win no matter whether they make mistakes or not.
 
From someone's who's only had 2 go's at showing and with mortifying results but still enjoyed the experience I do take my hat off to people who can turn out great looking immaculate horses who behave on the day and are schooled and go well (ie, move and do what they're supposed to do... unlike mine!). We have a veteran at our yard who is 29 and still looks great and to see him doing what he does in a class at his age is fantastic. He also wins at dressage too so he's not just a one trick pony! I love seeing M&M breeds being put through their paces and on display and so for a wider audience I think it's good that these types of horses are out there as a great advertisement for the versatility of all our breeds.
 
I can understand why people showing, however I do hate the bias at the small shows.
I did used to take my part bred arab mare into the part bred arab classes/riding horse classes etc just for something to do in between the jumping :) Even though she was covered in scars, pigeon toed, generally crazy :)

I prefer showjumping, cross country etc. Much less hassle and the judges don't care if my horse is true to type etc etc :)

Although we took an ex-racehorse into an in-hand class at quite a big show. All the other horses were lovely, ours was being a right prat, spinning around, trying to kill the owner, calling out to his friends, bit of a hat rack at the time etc. So of course he got called in last for his little individual prance around. Then the judge asked each person what the racehorses had done...obviously most of them had only raced a few times been to slow etc. He got to ours..."well he retired sound at 14 years old, raced 72 times and won over £100,000 in winnings, and now he is used for hunting and eventing"...and he got bumped up into first place!

So although sometimes the judges preferences is a bit silly...it did work out for this owner haha!
 
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LittleSoph, what exactly did I say that sounded misguided or uneducated? I was referring to you agreeing to another users comment that there was no point replying to me because I wouldn't change my mind...There is no need for me to change my mind, I am just interested! I do not do showing but I compete at all BE, BS, and BD, and know a lot about them seeing as I'm a professional horsewoman. I don't know a lot about showing though, which was the reason for posting this thread.
CallyH, I agree, it does make bring on sound better, and they are the same thing.
 
Showing is a 'shop window' for breeders who endeavour to breed the best to be enjoyed in all disciplines. A horse with good conformation is more likely to succeed as an athlete and stay sound than one with bad conformation.

My daughter used to do WHP classes and the tracks she was jumping when she was 13 were far bigger and more challenging than most tracks adult riders are jumping at unaffilated levels.

She now has an ex-racer that she hopes to event and is currently showing him in Retrained Racehorse classes while she works on his jumping at home. If anyone doesn't think it's a challenge to get a highly strung horse in a fit state of mind to behave impeccably at a busy agricultural show, gallop a length of the arena then come quietly back to hand, then have a strange rider on it's back and show the same level of manners and way of going then call me - I'll send you ours for a week or two!

Personally dressage bores me rigid, but I wouldn't dream of asking 'what's the point in dressage?'
And a final point - 'facey judging' isn't just a problem confined to showing, I have an acquaintance who events at advanced level but isn't a name and the dressage scores often reflect who's on top rather than how the mount underneath them has gone!
 
'heather_bambi'
What a lovely story, and the racehorse to riding horse scheme is something I throughly approve of, as it's the only place that ex-racehorses and their (at times) long-suffering owners get truly honoured.
 
I really enjoyed the show I went to sunday but still for the life of me can not get my head round men bigging themselves up by taking fat shiny small horses round a ring. I find it quite bizzare tbh
 
minesadouble, it always amazes me about the height the kids jump when doing workers, it makes the horse jumping classes look like trotting poles.
 
'minesadouble' It's not whether it bores me rigid or not, it's whether there's a good reason behind doing it. I understand your 'shop window' theory and about good conformation, but is recognised in every discipline, on the most part, that an animal with better conformation is less likely to suffer injury as a result of this. Your WHP daughter may have jumped big and I don't doubt that, I don't do unaffliated jumping so I wouldn't know what most adults do there, but wouldn't you prefer that she had won on merit rather than having to do a show on the flat to prove that her pony goes well enough? It probably wouldn't win if it didn't go well anyway. i see your point though and clearly a lot of people think there is a very good reason for showing.
 
Ah! That's the big question... I was talking about the good reason for showing in terms of the whole equestrian industry, not whether the equestrian industry had a point to it. The fact of the matter is that equestrian disciplines have become a large part of human activity, and it's not unreasonable to question whether a part of parts of the industry should be changed or dissolved.
 
Sorry to reply AGAIN - but with reference to the WHP question you raised that would I not rather she won the class 'on merit' - if she did win a class then she did win it on merit by proving not only was her pony a good, bold, safe jumper but he would also work nicely and obediently in an outline and not bouncing around in a dutch gag and martingale with his head in the air.

When at 14 she asked for a jumping pony I tried to encourage her to get a 14.2 that would do WHP as well as BSJA as I feel WHP encourages children to focus on their position and schooling of the pony rather than flying round in shocking style on a little 'jumping machine pony' then going on to horses and having no idea about the basics of making a horse work correctly. (For the record she didn't listen and spent 2 years doing BSJA on a typical 'buzzy' jumping pony)

I'm not tarring all BSJA kids with the same brush but anyone who has watched junior BSJA will know the type I am referring to.
 
brighteyes said:
The three show horses which were out hunting - all lardy creatures which had yet to get a speck of mud on them if memory serves.
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I'm not going to even try and join in this "discussion", however the quote from Brighteyes is total rubbish! I was on one of those horses on that day out - I was just showing someone today the scratches on my boots from when we followed the fieldmaster over a big ditch through a hedge before jumping all the hunt fences out that day....we all came home most definitely covered in mud on very happy horses!

Each to their own, I guess.
 
from someone who shows as an amateur with my own ponies, it's purely for fun and out of pride. I enjoy showing my ponies, my children enjoy it too. We never get anywhere but I like the social aspect of it too.

I've also shown at county level for a stud where I worked. On that side of it it was about buisness. It was about breeding ponies with a good nature, good conformation, and bred to do a job. It was about showcasing the stallions for stud, and about attracting buyers and potential clients (we wore 'work' clothes with the stud name on outside the rings). If you see a stud bred pony in the ring with manners to die for, looking super smart, the stud name will stick in your head. Word of mouth is fabulous in the horse world.
 
Dressage has it's origins in battle, horses had to be able to perform a pirouette etc to stay alive in battle, hence the army trained horses to do these movements.

XC also has its routes in the army, horses had to be brave a fearless across the most challenging of countries and terrains, whilst still listening to the rider.

Showjumping, again is derived from the military. Horses have to be careful over a jump, they have to have respect for the obstacle.

Essentially dressage, XC and showjumping all come from military routes. In battle a horse would have to have been good at all 3 disciplines in order to survive. Therefore there is a point to these disciplines.

I know very little about showing, so I am not going to make too many comments about it, as most of you lot are probably far more knowledgable than me. I am aware that a horse with good conformation should be more able, and more likely to stay sound than a horse with poor conformation. Yet just because a horse has fab conformation doesn't necessarily mean it is any good. To me performance is more important than conformation. Hence the reason I avoid showing at all costs!!!!!!
 
Yes i know exactly the type of bsja kid, but sound knowledge of producing a horse and riding it well to a fence doesn't always look good....In fact, many people say that once you start thinking about looking good you start losing. Look at top showjumpers and eventers, they don't always look pretty or even stylish, but they're horses look super and jump well. I don't think I can name names but a specific few that do very well but look awful spring to mind! I'm off to bed, thank you everyone for an interesting discussion. One last point that I can't resist asking and I'll revisit in the morning....
Faye1, did you not feel ashamed by the uproar following how overweight the horse you rode looked? That photograph encompassed how bad showing can be for the horse industry, and for the welfare of horses.
 
minesadouble said:
TT - Is there a 'good reason' behind ANY equestrian discipline?
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The only sense I have heard on this thread tbh. We are all different, we all want to do different things and quite honestly its variety that makes the world go around. TT I dont know who you are, you say you are a professional horsewoman - well its probably a bit more 'professional' to keep your feelings to yourself. If people want to show their horses - let them get on with it. Just because you dont care for it, it doesnt mean that they shouldnt.

No, I dont show, dont have connections that show, nor do I produce show horses/ponies, nor does it worry me that people do it and enjoy themselves (dont care for the fat horses, but thats another issue). Then TT, why are you so bothered about it?
 
Because, TheoryX1, I am bothered about all things horsey especially when it comes to welfare. There is nothing unprofessional about sharing opinions. I have been interested and enlightened by things people have said on this thread, and I'm glad that people are willing to discuss it with me. Why are YOU so bothered about this? Goodnight
 
I think the age old topic of over weight show animals is starting to be addressed - my Ri is a judge for a national society and they have had it made very clear what standards are acceptable and what are not. At my level it is quite rare to have a horse which is only 'shown' so they have to be of the right weight/fitness etc to complete other tasks . My TB used to race and outside of competing- hacks,is on working livery and is schooled (in use 6 nights a week) and is more than able to do all these and show with good results

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this is my 3 year old 8 weeks off the track fed haylage and a small meal(less than a scoop total) of alfa a and alfa beet . He has a little more to put on but I wouldn't want him any heavier than that and my thoughts were backed up by a judge at a local show - her comments were ' handsome chap but no more lard on him please' :)

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and this is my 9 year on working livery back in March . Again he works hard so he has two meals a day but to me for a TB coming out of a hard winter and have being in full work he has held his weight well and whether it is just ex racer classes but there seems to be a real focus on TB's being able to cope with other activities - in my last showing classes I have been asked what else we do and how he copes with the changes.

I think more and more the 'old school' type judges are less used and as FMM has said at the higher levels there is a cross over of judges who look less favourably on the heavier animals so peoples opinions are starting to change.
 
charlimouse said:
I am aware that a horse with good conformation should be more able, and more likely to stay sound than a horse with poor conformation. Yet just because a horse has fab conformation doesn't necessarily mean it is any good. To me performance is more important than conformation. Hence the reason I avoid showing at all costs!!!!!!
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Agree, take Opposition Buzz for example, he has less than perfect conformation. I am sure there are plenty, plenty more horses with conformation that wouldn't do in the showing ring, but are more capable and successful of doing something than a horse with perfect conformation. Conformation isn't everything.

Don't know any more, only as Opposition buzz is one of my favourites :)
 
Keep trying to go to bed but can't help checking ha!
'toomanyhorses26' your horses look lovely and I only wish that everyone looked after their horses so well and had as much concern for their weight. I'm glad that attitudes are changing.
 
I'd also like to add that it was never about winning for us, even though we got up to uk level. It was about producing good all round ponies that did everything from showjumping, dressage, xc to pony club camp.
 
TT I am actually not bothered and you didnt even read my post properly beforre you fired off your response. If you had, you would have noticed that I was merely making a comment regarding respecting other peoples views and letting them get on with it, providing its not hurting anyone or any horse. Goodnight and suggest you calm down a bit.
 
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