Is there anyone on HHO who disagrees with foxhunting?

fburton said:
Nuisances? Yes, they certainly can be!


Fox populations are largely self-regulating, numbers being limited by space available for territory. It doesn't really matter how many are killed each year, the population recovers within a year or two. Therefore, concerns that there would be a population explosion without culling are unwarranted. There is evidence to support this in what happened due to the temporary hunting ban that occurred during the foot-and-mouth outbreak. In any case, many more foxes are killed on the roads than by deliberate hunting/culling. Of course, it can always be argued that the natural population level (i.e. what it would stabilize at without culling) is too high and this used to justify hunting. However, I have some sympathy for local fox control where particular individuals ("rogue foxes") are killing livestock.
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absolutely true. I always think it's interesting when you talk to pro-hunters that they use two arguments, 1) there would be too many foxes if we didn't kill them (not true for the reasons above) and 2), well it's not that cruel cos we don't kill that many anyway.

It seems that, if they're really such a MASSIVE problem to farmers, going out and shooting them would be massively more economical (you could kill several in one go, for example) than having teams of people out twice a week to kill one, if you're lucky (depending on your viewpoint!). So, they can't be that bad a problem or you'd have to do a lot more than just killing one or two a week - at most - in your area.

Secondly - fox hunting is pretty much only limited to Britain, but keeping chickens and the existence of foxes is not limited to Britain. the others seem to manage - i just don't see why it's necessary?!
 
NeilM said:
Ermm, I don't know if anyone has read the news lately, but hunting foxes with hounds is illegal and has been since 2005.
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We know fox hunting is illegal. No-one had said otherwise :confused:

But the question asked was who disagrees with fox hunting? It is still popular in other countries and may well be brought back here. I don't see how people answering the question about fox hunting in principle are wrong :confused: :rolleyes:
 
Also as to the foxes hunting for fun, if left and not chased off they come back for the carcasses and bury them to form over wintering 'caches'. So actually they are doing what comes naturally to them, hunting while the food is plentiful, and then storing for the hard times but they are usually disturbed before this can happen.
 
Annielusian said:
I hate it. People say foxes are over populated? I live in the middle of the country and it's such a rare occasion that I actually see one.
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I live i the middle of the country as well, and we have a fox den very close by to the house, they do cause some problems but as we don't keep poultry were ok! In the time they have been living here I have only seen a fleeting glimpse of them once. The rabbiter/rook/pidgeon man has seen them more, generally running off with his lunch!

It is likely you have foxes very close by and never know they are there.
 
Morgan123 said:
Shooting them? I just don't see why hunting (with a pack of hounds) is necessary. I know people say shooting is not ideal either, whihc I'm sure is true (misfiring, etc etc), but it is still better than being chased and ripped apart.
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Shooting them is not ideal at all and infact much worse. At home we have a sort of game keeper to keep on top of the rabbits, rooks, and pidgeons to help keep a healthy and diverse range of wildlife in the area. Even in close quarters a kill is not guarenteed and you are more likely to maime and have to continue with a second shot to kill.

Over 50m the shot from a shotgun (the gun of choice for most farmers) will be fairly dispersed and not accurate resulting in a peppering of lead shot into the fox, most likely the rear quarters as the predicted movement of the fox was incorrect.

To shoot a fox does in no way mean a quick, clean, pain free death. More often and more likely a slow, painful messy death or worse surviving to starve to death. Please don't believe it is any more humane!
 
fburton said:
What is your evidence for saying foxes kill for fun? Isn't it just instinct? It seems to me they are no better or worse than any other non-human animal that is doing what it is naturally programmed to do.
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Does that same logic then not apply to the pack of hounds who's own natural instinct is to hunt as a pack?

At which point you then disagree with people accompanying the hunt and not the actually hunting by the hounds?
 
Keimanp said:
Shooting them is not ideal at all and infact much worse. At home we have a sort of game keeper to keep on top of the rabbits, rooks, and pidgeons to help keep a healthy and diverse range of wildlife in the area. Even in close quarters a kill is not guarenteed and you are more likely to maime and have to continue with a second shot to kill.

Over 50m the shot from a shotgun (the gun of choice for most farmers) will be fairly dispersed and not accurate resulting in a peppering of lead shot into the fox, most likely the rear quarters as the predicted movement of the fox was incorrect.

To shoot a fox does in no way mean a quick, clean, pain free death. More often and more likely a slow, painful messy death or worse surviving to starve to death. Please don't believe it is any more humane!
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I'm sure that's true and that it's not always accurate, etc etc - but neither is ripping a body apart with dogs - at least if you shoot them they don't have a full on panicking run of miles and miles, and also they have more of a hcance of a quick and painless death (though, agreed, there will be times when it does not work and causes a slow death whihc is obviously not ideal either).
 
Jenny_Sinn said:
Yes! 40 hounds vs 1 fox doesn't seem fair to me. It feels like a desire to maintain a tradition is getting in the way of finding a more humane method.
Not a popular opinion in the horsey world, lol.

(It also makes me cringe when I see them hammering on the road -ouch!)
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I think I agree with this too! I am not 100% with my opinion on this subject.
 
I don't like Fox Hunting.

I have no problem with humane destruction if there is a fox ' problem'

I can't get my head around an animal being chased down and ripped apart for sport.

Sport and death don't go in the same sentence for me.
 
Yes I disagree with fox hunting always have. I think there is more humane way of keeping the numbers down .

Running a scared animal to death to be torn by dogs is cruel and stressful to the fox.


Where a quick bullet ends with the job done .


Drag Hunting and Mock hunting to me are a way of having the thrill of the hunt with no fox getting hurt. IMO
 
Morgan123 said:
Shooting them? I just don't see why hunting (with a pack of hounds) is necessary. I know people say shooting is not ideal either, whihc I'm sure is true (misfiring, etc etc), but it is still better than being chased and ripped apart.

Also - to the poeple saying it doesn't exist anymore - it may be banned, but come on - we all know it still goes on all over the place. And even the legal stuff - you can still chase the fox with the hounds, just not kill it wiht the hounds. I think the chasing is just as bad as the killing, imo.
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Really do you have proof that this goes on?? Or are you just going to make silly statements?
 
Annielusian said:
forestfantasy - Very true! That's why I don't really get fox hunting. Leave them in the country where they are needed to keep down rabbit and other populations naturally and let cars deal with the fox. Goodness knows they kill enough.
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ahhh so it's ok for a fox to chase a rabbit and a car to knock over a fox and leave it in agony by the side of the road to endure a slow and painful death but you don't like the thought of hounds chasing a fox and it being killed quickly by the huntsman:confused: don't think you've really thought that through:rolleyes:
the stress of being chased is no different for the rabbit being chased by the fox or the fox being chased by hounds, both rabbit and fox are prey animals;)
And as for 'leaving foxes in the country' do you honestly think we have any control over where foxy decides to live, he's a smart animal and will go where food is plentiful, be that food natural prey or waste produced by humans;)
 
Morgan123 said:
I'm sure that's true and that it's not always accurate, etc etc - but neither is ripping a body apart with dogs - at least if you shoot them they don't have a full on panicking run of miles and miles, and also they have more of a hcance of a quick and painless death (though, agreed, there will be times when it does not work and causes a slow death whihc is obviously not ideal either).
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At the point at which the hounds rip a body apart the fox is already dead. It is just that this is very effective and emotive way of suggesting and implying the fox lives through this and it is what kills the fox.

The fox is a naturally flightly animal and during the chase (which generally isn't for miles and miles) and how long it lasts may have some effect on the fox, it would be interesting to know and understand but to anthropomorphise onto the fox is wrong.

I am on in the middle ground with fox hunting in reality, I can see both the reasons for and those against, I have seen the damage a fox can do along with how cunning and elusive they can be. I don't see it as worse than any other form of control and better in some instances.
 
Daddy_Long_Legs said:
Really do you have proof that this goes on?? Or are you just going to make silly statements?
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I thought this was common knowledge?!?!?! I know for certain people still do in my area, because the people who hunt talk about it! I assume it's not just the area I live in, either. As one lady who still hunts said, 'if you're chasing a fox with a load of hounds, no one's exactly going to stop you actually killing it at the last second'. The chasing it is absolutely legal.

So, no silly statements - thanks :-)
 
Keimanp said:
At the point at which the hounds rip a body apart the fox is already dead. It is just that this is very effective and emotive way of suggesting and implying the fox lives through this and it is what kills the fox.

The fox is a naturally flightly animal and during the chase (which generally isn't for miles and miles) and how long it lasts may have some effect on the fox, it would be interesting to know and understand but to anthropomorphise onto the fox is wrong.

I am on in the middle ground with fox hunting in reality, I can see both the reasons for and those against, I have seen the damage a fox can do along with how cunning and elusive they can be. I don't see it as worse than any other form of control and better in some instances.
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Are you serious - 'some effect' on the fox and it's anthropomorphising to suggest that being chased by an entire pack of animals - three species of animals - is frightening and unnatural?!

OK - so maybe at the ripping apart part it's dead (or maybe not) but that doesn't mean it's a nice way to die, especially after being chased until caught.

I'm interested too in why you think it's 'better in some instances' than other forms of control - just out of interest, why is it better/in what way?
 
amymay said:
Actually it isn't. But agree with you - of course illegal hunting goes on.
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Oh did I get that bit wrong??? Isn't it legal to still chase a fox wiht the hounds but it's using the hounds to kill it that's illegal, so you are meant to have people calling off the hounds and stepping in to shoot the fox? I was told by the local hunting crew that that's how everyone gets away with still doing it. apologies if i was wrong :-)
 
If hounds pick up the scent of a fox, or flush one out, they must be called off immediately. Hounds are absolutely not allowed to chase it.

The only way around it is if you have a bird of prey.
 
Shamelessly pinched from my local hunt's website
Trail hunting
Trail hunting is the hunting of an artificial scent. There is no reason why huntsman or followers should know in advance the route hounds will take when following a trail, thus closely matching hunting in it’s current form.

Flushing
Two hounds can be used to flush quarry from covert (which could be undergrowth or woodland). The quarry must then be shot dead as soon as possible by a “competent person”.

Hound Exercising
Any number of hounds can be exercised at the same time.

Flushing to a bird of prey
Under the Hunting Act it is legal to use any number of dogs to flush any wild mammal from cover so that a bird of prey can hunt it.

Hunting Rats and Rabbits
Any number of dogs can be used to hunt rats and rabbits, which are specifically exempted from the terms of the Act.

Hunting of wounded Hares
Any number of dogs can be used to hunt and dispatch hares that have been shot and wounded.
 
scrunchie said:
They don't just kill rabbits though do they? They kill all manner of small animals and livestock. And as I said, they kill for fun. They won't just kill one chicken, they will kill all the chickens in a coop.
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See, I am not getting at you personally but so many people have this argument for why foxes should be killed and I just don't agree with it. Foxes are ANIMALS they do what comes naturally to them - I don't think they go out thinkinh "hey, let's go break in to that chicken coup and kill a few of those chickens for a bit of fun tonight". No they just see this food in front of them and their instinct is to kill prey which they do. To me that is no different than your household cat going out and killing birds/mice etc - how many do they actually eat??

Of course, like anyone else I would be upset if a fox killed any animal of mine but then that's my fault for not protecting the animal isn't it.

I do not agree with hunting in the main but then I don't understand how anyone gets pleasure out of going out and purposefully killing an animal for 'fun' (we're the ones who do it in the name of pleasure/sport/fun, not the fox!)

They still hunt round me with a fair few people and numerous dogs - as far as I know they shoot the fox but I am not 100% sure. I despise those who send terriers down a hole to flush the fox out or indeed dig the fox out - how is that fair?

A friend of mine who is a huntsman posted a picture a year or so ago where they had dug a fox out - I think that's disgusting and told him so. How is that sporting? The fox had got to where it should have been safe but yet they dug it out and killed it. Doesn't sit right with me and I can fully understand why people are antihunt when these hunts do things like that - they do not do themselves any favours in my opinion.
 
Yes, I am totally against fox hunting. I like this forum as its the most active, but I dont buy H&H and simply dont venture into the hunting threads. I'm not about to discuss why I dont like it on here because most people here are naturally pro and I'm bored of the same arguements!
 
Aaaaaarrrrggghhh.. where to start???

Bear baiting, badger baiting, dog fighting and cock fighting are non comparable to fox hunting. Not ONE of those even pretends it has a purpose other than human entertainment. Fox hunting is training for P2P horses, experience for the pony club, a learning curve for wannabe eventers, a social event for rural communities (and they need them!), a reason for farmers to maintain hedges and fences to a jumpable standard.... It's so much more than just killing for fun!

The kill itself - it's only ever one hound killing one fox. The tearing apart bit is post mortem and even if the fox were to still be alive, it'd be so immencely quick. A bullet lodged in your guts isn't that quick really. There's no such thing as accurate shooting unless you're shooting targets. Even deer stalkers often have to follow deer as they bleed out and die slowly!

Foxes don't kill for fun. They're amazingly smart creatures who have the potential to plan ahead. If you were out shopping and saw branded tinned beans for 10p a can, would you not stock up for all those winter nights when beans on toast is bliss? If left undisturbed, a fox will bury every single one of those chickens it massacred the night before for the months ahead!

Foxes would self regulate if not for their hugely varied diet, and their smartness again. With an endless supply of rubbish, discarded fast food, small rodents and berries and worms (yes, they'll eat those too!) - there is none of the natural ups and downs to control foxes like there would normally be! Also, whatever you think, foxes are NOT the top of the food chain!! Bears and wolves, ex natives of the UK, would have killed them, and still do in the states and other countries where the three co-exist!! Ergo SOMEONE has to control them!

Dogs vs foxes is not unnatural and cannot be trained (my old gundog took on a fox and between him and the others they tore it to pieces. Irrelevant that someone had just shot it, they went savage on it. This included spaniels, labs and pointers!!!). I know of a foxhound who was moved to another pack because he wouldn't stop hunting foxes! (naughty boy, not reading the law!). They don't need to be "abused" into going hunting!

I'm nowadays not really pro or anti. I love my foxes and there are certain individuals I hope escape the hunt. But what I cannot stand is people getting violent and aggressive about the whole thing (yes, I'm looking at you, hunt sabs) or people spouting obvious rubbish, from both sides, because they're miseducated by the media.
What I hate the most is that some dumb butthole decided to make a law about it when it's glaringly obvious no one either cares, or knows what is involved!
 
Fox hunting is training for P2P horses, experience for the pony club, a learning curve for wannabe eventers, a social event for rural communities (and they need them!), a reason for farmers to maintain hedges and fences to a jumpable standard.... It's so much more than just killing for fun!
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As a 'sport' its emergence was simply entertainment for royalty and wealthy landowners. Everything else is secondary.
 
Ibblebibble said:
ahhh so it's ok for a fox to chase a rabbit and a car to knock over a fox and leave it in agony by the side of the road to endure a slow and painful death but you don't like the thought of hounds chasing a fox and it being killed quickly by the huntsman:confused: don't think you've really thought that through:rolleyes:
the stress of being chased is no different for the rabbit being chased by the fox or the fox being chased by hounds, both rabbit and fox are prey animals;)
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I think most people who have an issue with hunting, have an issue with it being deemed a sporting activity - I havent seen any boy racers recently running around in cars in groups of 20 looking for foxes to run over as a method of enjoyment, and to my knowledge, foxes do not gather at a meeting points by the dozen, and take a sip of brandy before heading off cross country to find a rabbit to chase. Cars running over foxes is accidental, same as cars running over dogs or cats, and foxes killing chickens is how they feed themselves - it might appear malicious and evil of them to kill all the chickens, however that is their instinct - they are indifferent to their prey, they kill it because that the only way they know how to survive. We chase foxes for fun with large packs of animals - that's not natural at all - in the wild you wouldn't get 40 dogs followed by 30 people on horseback chasing one fox.

I have been hunting, post band so within the confines of the law - didn't see a single fox - had a blast on my horse and the people were lovely and the dogs were cute - thought I should try it before I decided which side of the fence I was on. I will stick to drag hunting as I thoroughly enjoyed the riding and social aspect of it however, still do not feel comfortable with chasing an animal to its death in an unnatural way and calling it a sport. If there was one man with a dog and a shotgun going round the countryside keeping fox numbers down, there would not be a discussion as I do believe that even us "townies" realise the impact that foxes have on country life and livestock - its not that which we have issue with - its the method by which this supposed control of fox population is delivered. In hunting circles I have heard the comment that fox hunting is ok cause they rarely catch a fox anyway - another saying its an effective way of controlling the fox population - it has to be one or the other but I have a suspicion that fox hunting is not as effective as keeping fox numbers down as people make out. Its the tradition that people dont want to let go of, and I can understand that but things change - we no longer send small children up chimneys either but I dont see anyone harping on about that :D (jk btw for anyone who is getting their knickers in a twist)
 
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Tinap555 said:
I'm not against the actual hunting, but there is no way on earth I would let mine go blasting down the roads & jumping barbed wire fences!! I like his legs too much :D
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But that would be your choice entirely, you wouldn't need to do those things :)
 
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