SatansLittleHelper
Well-Known Member
No horse should be expected to carry a person below or over 8 stone and not below or over 5.5ft. Esp not on days that end in a Y.
Is there (or should there be) a ceiling ability to horse riding?
- Thread starter Shilasdair
- Start date
ponynutz
Well-Known Member
I'm not totally sure what you mean by a 'ceiling ability' because to me this would suggest someone so good they couldn't ride horses anymore, which negates the point of horse-riding - which is ultimately to make a wild animal do things wild animals shouldn't be doing, while making it look effortless. I do think there should be some baseline ability though, but what that is I'm not fully sure yet.
Will horse riding inevitably cause pain to an animal at some point? Yes, but so does simply owning a pet (because cats and dogs particularly seem determined to leave their tails in prime place to be stood on). Horse-riding is not natural, and while that could be an argument for binning off the sport entirely, I personally think it's the same way that dog breeds are not natural, nor cow breeds, nor any breed of anything in the 21st century - they've been bred for a purpose. The ethics of that are a totally different conversation, and one I'm not willing to go into right now.
I'll give border collies as a bit of an example, simply because I have two and know something about them. No wolf would sit around needing to herd sheep all day long. Sure, they'd hunt the sheep or whatever else, and they would be fit and active, but the mental stimulation required for keeping a wolf (wild ancestor) happy is nowhere near the amount of mental stimulation and stimulating exercise a non-working (domesticated) border needs. It would be crueler to think 'well this is unnatural, let them be wild animals' and leave them be, than it is to just accept humans have bred these traits into dog breeds and to accomodate for that if you choose to have borders who are pets, not working dogs. Horses are the same in my opinion. I vaguely remember reading a study once explaining (very basically) how horses have adapted from their common ancestors to suit being ridden and general domesticated life. We've removed many of their main predators (if not all), required them to be taller, faster, more compact to suit a rider's weight, height, and needs for the horse, while changing their diet and therefore skeletal and biological structures to accomodate a mainly grass based diet. I think they used to eat potatoes and such, similar to pigs, although that was pre-evolution of today's species of horse). They are bred to be ridden, and so I think that being kind and considerate to horses, and treating them as animals, not machines, would be the baseline understanding for anyone looking to want to ride. Understanding that, yes, while they have been bred over many years to accomdate a sport for another mammal, they are still living, breathing, thinking animals with pain receptors and the ability to feel trauma and basic emotion. So for any beginner I would be looking for kindness as a total baseline (and most kids these days are brought up with pets so easily fit this category) in order to limit the pain caused to an animal.
That being said, we are all human. We are not machines either and we are also a product of evolution. There's a reason we're the only species of humans left - it wasn't easy. Even the best riders will still make mistakes when caught by surprise (like if the horse spooks, it's human nature to just grab onto something when shocked). I'm a big believer, though, in teaching yourself to give the reins if you have a horse who takes dodgy strides and such. For me, the biggest strength we have over instinct is emotion. Rational thought, yes that too, but taking that baseline kindness and applying that to deliberately unlearning instinct is key for me. If you associate discomfort with causing pain to an animal, because of an instinct of yours, you're more likely to actively try and change that. The other advantage we have, of course, is Amazon. There are always things you can put in place to help not cause discomfort to horses teaching total beginners, like neck straps to pull on when they lose their balance, rather than the horse's mouth. We haven't been bred for horses, so it's down to us to actively accomodate them as animals, not mechanical devices.
So, yes, a baseline of kindness and a good teacher from the beginning to train into you good instincts, rather than trying to unlearn them later as an adult (or more instinctual rider) is where I always end up. That being said, in terms of a ceiling boundary, I think it's about not getting above your station and tailoring your riding (and instinctual habits) to the horse you're riding where possible. I think that's what makes some of the great riders such amazing riders. Yes, they have talent in and around their own disciplines but they can also sit on anything and ride it brilliantly. I'm convinced Charlotte Dujardin could make a mule look like a Grand Prix Dressage horse, haha.
Pain may happen at stages, but domesticated life is a shadow of life in the wild at the end of the day and this is life - it's not fair. But minimising that pain and damage, and being a responsible horse owner and rider is, I think, the most important aspect of horse-riding and also what makes our sport so difficult but rewarding. Our hockey sticks, or football boots have beating hearts and minds of their own and working as a team to get a desired outcome is the whole point in my view. You can only begin do that with a baseline of kindness in my eyes.
Oops I've rambled, but it's an interesting topic and one I've often thought about. But there's my thoughts on the matter.
Will horse riding inevitably cause pain to an animal at some point? Yes, but so does simply owning a pet (because cats and dogs particularly seem determined to leave their tails in prime place to be stood on). Horse-riding is not natural, and while that could be an argument for binning off the sport entirely, I personally think it's the same way that dog breeds are not natural, nor cow breeds, nor any breed of anything in the 21st century - they've been bred for a purpose. The ethics of that are a totally different conversation, and one I'm not willing to go into right now.
I'll give border collies as a bit of an example, simply because I have two and know something about them. No wolf would sit around needing to herd sheep all day long. Sure, they'd hunt the sheep or whatever else, and they would be fit and active, but the mental stimulation required for keeping a wolf (wild ancestor) happy is nowhere near the amount of mental stimulation and stimulating exercise a non-working (domesticated) border needs. It would be crueler to think 'well this is unnatural, let them be wild animals' and leave them be, than it is to just accept humans have bred these traits into dog breeds and to accomodate for that if you choose to have borders who are pets, not working dogs. Horses are the same in my opinion. I vaguely remember reading a study once explaining (very basically) how horses have adapted from their common ancestors to suit being ridden and general domesticated life. We've removed many of their main predators (if not all), required them to be taller, faster, more compact to suit a rider's weight, height, and needs for the horse, while changing their diet and therefore skeletal and biological structures to accomodate a mainly grass based diet. I think they used to eat potatoes and such, similar to pigs, although that was pre-evolution of today's species of horse). They are bred to be ridden, and so I think that being kind and considerate to horses, and treating them as animals, not machines, would be the baseline understanding for anyone looking to want to ride. Understanding that, yes, while they have been bred over many years to accomdate a sport for another mammal, they are still living, breathing, thinking animals with pain receptors and the ability to feel trauma and basic emotion. So for any beginner I would be looking for kindness as a total baseline (and most kids these days are brought up with pets so easily fit this category) in order to limit the pain caused to an animal.
That being said, we are all human. We are not machines either and we are also a product of evolution. There's a reason we're the only species of humans left - it wasn't easy. Even the best riders will still make mistakes when caught by surprise (like if the horse spooks, it's human nature to just grab onto something when shocked). I'm a big believer, though, in teaching yourself to give the reins if you have a horse who takes dodgy strides and such. For me, the biggest strength we have over instinct is emotion. Rational thought, yes that too, but taking that baseline kindness and applying that to deliberately unlearning instinct is key for me. If you associate discomfort with causing pain to an animal, because of an instinct of yours, you're more likely to actively try and change that. The other advantage we have, of course, is Amazon. There are always things you can put in place to help not cause discomfort to horses teaching total beginners, like neck straps to pull on when they lose their balance, rather than the horse's mouth. We haven't been bred for horses, so it's down to us to actively accomodate them as animals, not mechanical devices.
So, yes, a baseline of kindness and a good teacher from the beginning to train into you good instincts, rather than trying to unlearn them later as an adult (or more instinctual rider) is where I always end up. That being said, in terms of a ceiling boundary, I think it's about not getting above your station and tailoring your riding (and instinctual habits) to the horse you're riding where possible. I think that's what makes some of the great riders such amazing riders. Yes, they have talent in and around their own disciplines but they can also sit on anything and ride it brilliantly. I'm convinced Charlotte Dujardin could make a mule look like a Grand Prix Dressage horse, haha.
Pain may happen at stages, but domesticated life is a shadow of life in the wild at the end of the day and this is life - it's not fair. But minimising that pain and damage, and being a responsible horse owner and rider is, I think, the most important aspect of horse-riding and also what makes our sport so difficult but rewarding. Our hockey sticks, or football boots have beating hearts and minds of their own and working as a team to get a desired outcome is the whole point in my view. You can only begin do that with a baseline of kindness in my eyes.
Oops I've rambled, but it's an interesting topic and one I've often thought about. But there's my thoughts on the matter.
Last edited:
ponynutz
Well-Known Member
Side note - weight wise. Each individual horse's build, weight, and height can be used to calculate what they 'should' be carrying. I don't like that word should, it should be changed to 'can carry'. There are thousands of horses all over the world, why anyone would deliberately ride one that couldn't carry their weight is beyond me. I have nothing against anyone of any size, but please dear god find the right horse for you!
spookypony
Well-Known Member
Thoughtful post, ponynutz!
Regarding Shils's original question, I do find the idea of using mechanical horses to teach initial balance and seat intriguing, although I suspect it'll be a while before that's readily available. In the meantime, I could see an argument for going more old-fashioned instead, and using plenty of longe lessons as a matter of course. That, too, is a bit more expensive, though, because it's a one-on-one lesson...the riding school I started at as a kid had a sort of combination system: although the group lessons were mixed-level, the beginners were led from another pony by an older girl (at the time, I thought they were terribly mature women, but I suspect they were the equivalent of working pupils, or barn groupies), until rising trot was established. We were also pulled out of the group and put on a longe horse, principally for canter seat practice. The idea was that we weren't allowed to try for any sort of contact with the horse's mouth until we were secure in the seat and balanced. I think that was a good approach.
I'm not so sure that from the horse's point of view, being wild and free is so desirable: I rather get the impression that the principal concerns operating there are food, water, safety, and friends, and more food. The more those concerns can be satisfied in one place, the less a group of horses will be inclined to travel, anyway. I'm sure the Ballerina Mare sometimes finds being sat upon a trifle annoying, but on the other hand, she seems very pleased with her unending food supply, her little family, and occasionally a rug when the wind and rain are really awful. Her wee pink pill helps her be healthy and shiny and active, long after she would have been dead in the wild. I do think it's a trifle arrogant, perhaps, on the part of people to assume that domestication of various species was a completely one-way street...
Regarding Shils's original question, I do find the idea of using mechanical horses to teach initial balance and seat intriguing, although I suspect it'll be a while before that's readily available. In the meantime, I could see an argument for going more old-fashioned instead, and using plenty of longe lessons as a matter of course. That, too, is a bit more expensive, though, because it's a one-on-one lesson...the riding school I started at as a kid had a sort of combination system: although the group lessons were mixed-level, the beginners were led from another pony by an older girl (at the time, I thought they were terribly mature women, but I suspect they were the equivalent of working pupils, or barn groupies), until rising trot was established. We were also pulled out of the group and put on a longe horse, principally for canter seat practice. The idea was that we weren't allowed to try for any sort of contact with the horse's mouth until we were secure in the seat and balanced. I think that was a good approach.
I'm not so sure that from the horse's point of view, being wild and free is so desirable: I rather get the impression that the principal concerns operating there are food, water, safety, and friends, and more food. The more those concerns can be satisfied in one place, the less a group of horses will be inclined to travel, anyway. I'm sure the Ballerina Mare sometimes finds being sat upon a trifle annoying, but on the other hand, she seems very pleased with her unending food supply, her little family, and occasionally a rug when the wind and rain are really awful. Her wee pink pill helps her be healthy and shiny and active, long after she would have been dead in the wild. I do think it's a trifle arrogant, perhaps, on the part of people to assume that domestication of various species was a completely one-way street...
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
I quite like the idea of saying to someone 'I'm sorry but you are just too talented at riding and I feel that you would be better suited to tiddlywinks'. 
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
Cobs for life for me then.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I figured the people who operate it might need a nap24hrs surely?
18hrs at £50 a session - yup, would pay for itself in a month (yes they're that expensive new for the basic model
Look at this video! D66, someone's already stolen your idea! https://www.racewood.com/rda.html
The eventing ones are £86K new but I can see why!
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
24hrs surely?
18hrs at £50 a session - yup, would pay for itself in a month (yes they're that expensive new for the basic model
Look at this video! D66, someone's already stolen your idea! https://www.racewood.com/rda.html
The eventing ones are £86K new but I can see why!
I had no idea simulators had got that sophisticated. There really is no need to put unbalanced adult beginners onto a live animal to learn basic riding skills, is there?
.
Skib
Well-Known Member
No. I was repeatedly told how useless I was. That I would kill myself hacking. That I hadnt a clue.
All true or possible. But no horse has been harmed in making a rider of me. Horses were used for centuries to carry goods and paniers. The passive weight of an elderly person of normal weight like myself is not going to trouble them. Horses like slow and quiet. And idle.
If I sit on a horse and think, Lovely Horsey please carry me forward, the horse will either understand or ask for further explanation (like my leg).
Mary Wanless describes the alliance between the worst student and the slowest RS horse. That was me.
An RI turns on a simulator (terrifying) and this bloodless contraption rocks one about with no reward. And at considerable risk. The RI said she was not prepared to teach me on her horses.
So the answer to this question is yes. For some RSs there are students too incompetent to teach. But it is immaterial, if the RS horse particularly likes that person instead. The useless student will continue to pay money week after week to whisper sweet nothings to the horse. No one ever whispered to a simulator.
All true or possible. But no horse has been harmed in making a rider of me. Horses were used for centuries to carry goods and paniers. The passive weight of an elderly person of normal weight like myself is not going to trouble them. Horses like slow and quiet. And idle.
If I sit on a horse and think, Lovely Horsey please carry me forward, the horse will either understand or ask for further explanation (like my leg).
Mary Wanless describes the alliance between the worst student and the slowest RS horse. That was me.
An RI turns on a simulator (terrifying) and this bloodless contraption rocks one about with no reward. And at considerable risk. The RI said she was not prepared to teach me on her horses.
So the answer to this question is yes. For some RSs there are students too incompetent to teach. But it is immaterial, if the RS horse particularly likes that person instead. The useless student will continue to pay money week after week to whisper sweet nothings to the horse. No one ever whispered to a simulator.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
OP, surely the ceiling occurs at just above the level of CDJ/WF-P or Ruby Walsh? I think you meant floor level.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
Pearly, I was plagiarising the weight thread, as close to verbatim as I could because it amused me to make a point that weight is probably less of a welfare issue than rider skill.
ETA: There have been some really thoughtful responses though - so I'm enjoying reading it.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
i find the whole subject too disappointing to think about. my first post on the subject sums it up, it was being flippant but it makes me wince to think of the first horses I had, the ones I had later, the one I've got now - I'm still learning stuff so fast that I wish i could go back 6 years and start her again knowing what I know now... and I expect to have this painful feeling for the rest of my riding life.
I never intentionally hurt a horse, but I know what a tremendous privilege it is to ride and train one, and IMO it does nothing to benefit them objectively really, it's a pretty selfish desire and the flip side of that is they must suffer at some level. I always try to be fair and even tempered and kind and horse-centric in my approach... but as you notice you improve technique or ability in one area.... you realise you were doing it all wrong before. and then you'll get better again in the future and realise you were still doing it wrong now.
I can't bear it, but equally i can't imagine giving up at this point, I just stuff all those thoughts to the back of my mind and keep doling out the carrots as compensation
I never intentionally hurt a horse, but I know what a tremendous privilege it is to ride and train one, and IMO it does nothing to benefit them objectively really, it's a pretty selfish desire and the flip side of that is they must suffer at some level. I always try to be fair and even tempered and kind and horse-centric in my approach... but as you notice you improve technique or ability in one area.... you realise you were doing it all wrong before. and then you'll get better again in the future and realise you were still doing it wrong now.
I can't bear it, but equally i can't imagine giving up at this point, I just stuff all those thoughts to the back of my mind and keep doling out the carrots as compensation
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Re. simulators the one at newmarket + racing tv screen does feel remarkably like you are actually riding it.
palo1
Well-Known Member
i find the whole subject too disappointing to think about. my first post on the subject sums it up, it was being flippant but it makes me wince to think of the first horses I had, the ones I had later, the one I've got now - I'm still learning stuff so fast that I wish i could go back 6 years and start her again knowing what I know now... and I expect to have this painful feeling for the rest of my riding life.
I never intentionally hurt a horse, but I know what a tremendous privilege it is to ride and train one, and IMO it does nothing to benefit them objectively really, it's a pretty selfish desire and the flip side of that is they must suffer at some level. I always try to be fair and even tempered and kind and horse-centric in my approach... but as you notice you improve technique or ability in one area.... you realise you were doing it all wrong before. and then you'll get better again in the future and realise you were still doing it wrong now.
I can't bear it, but equally i can't imagine giving up at this point, I just stuff all those thoughts to the back of my mind and keep doling out the carrots as compensation
This. With added bells and guilt as a side option!! I guess the only benefit for horses is the fact that our regular and even ridden interaction with them connects us to the experience of another species in a way that is very thought-provoking. That may lead to greater empathy with our wider world as a result. I do think that animals and our connection with them makes us 'better' people generally in fact and 'better' in terms of our understanding of nature, the world, alternative forms of existence etc. Individual horses probably don't benefit much from our engagement with them but they do often demonstrate pleasure, excitement etc in their lives and they are, or should be, at least safe, comfortable and confident...I dunno though...it is all rather difficult!
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
Yeah I mean, i try to ensure that I am a net positive in my horses' lives, but I have 6 unridden ones and while I do really have horses to ride, the freeloaders do give me a huge amount of pleasure and meaningful stuff. I think if i ever fall over the edge of the giant chasm rabbithole of no longer being able to ride in good conscience, I will still have horses around, I like them as companions and a lifestyle.
teapot
Well-Known Member
I figured the people who operate it might need a nap
Staff breaks? What would Shils say?
McGrools
Well-Known Member
I dont really buy into the idea that horses arent designed to be ridden. I’d far rather see a horse or pony with a job to do rather than with a boring existence of no physical or mental stimulation. I have a sweet little cob on schooling livery atm who has been a pet for years. Her little face is a picture of joy hacking out and about this week. She is thoroughy enjoying herself living a little getting out.
Obviously there are limits and a lot of broken, partially broken horses around that dont need any work. But i do think if a horse is well and sound riding enhances its life rather than detracts from it.
Obviously there are limits and a lot of broken, partially broken horses around that dont need any work. But i do think if a horse is well and sound riding enhances its life rather than detracts from it.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
i used to think mine liked having a job and thrived off it until I retired the busy one several years ago. She's a very content horse who enjoys asserting her position in my little herd, getting up to mischief, ruling the roost, spying on the neighbours, eating the best bits of the hedge and so on. I loved riding her and she was an enthusiastic mount for BE and BD, hunting, hacking and everything else we did. but I am under no illusions that her quality of life is as good now as it was then, and frankly she probably would be sounder now if she hadn't done all that un-natural work.
just because a horse isn't ridden doesn't mean it has no stimulation. they find it in other areas given the chance.
just because a horse isn't ridden doesn't mean it has no stimulation. they find it in other areas given the chance.