Is this unprofessional?

[Flicker]

My friend's trainer is very, very good. I used to use her with my old horse and the only reason I changed is because my loan horse's owner has asked me to use the trainer he's had for years.

However, my friend's trainer arrives at lessons with a side-kick in tow who has more or less latched onto her and now seems to be 'part of the package'. The side-kick never asks if she can watch the lesson, she just sits herself down. Once, when another livery was about to start a lesson on her youngster, the side-kick said, 'oh I've been looking forward to watching this!'

My friend invited me to watch one of her lessons, and I sat with the side-kick, who proceeded to not only critique my friend's riding, but also the riding of some of the other pupils the trainer had taught recently. And not in a constructive way either! I was quite shocked.

Having an audience in my lessons has never bothered me, however my friend is having real trouble with her horse at the moment, and the last thing she needs is Little Miss Schadenfreude sitting in the corner lapping it all up to relay to everyone else later.

She's not sure whether she should say something - she doesn't want to come across as all diva-ish and possibly fall out with her trainer (who clearly sees some value in this relationship). I think it is unprofessional, but wondered on others' thoughts.

 

[peaceandquiet1]

I think the trainer should seek the permission of the rider before bringing a sidekick along and the sidekick should keep their opinions to themselves. Unprofessional-yes.

 

[Mooseontheloose]

It's very easy being an expert while sitting on a chair - I know everything there is to know until I get on a horse!

 

[rachk89]

Very unprofessional. I think most people like to watch others ride and I know I have looked forward to seeing certain horses be ridden but never said stuff like that. Usually sat there jealous of how good the rider is. I would be saying something to the trainer and to little miss know it all.

 

[Dry Rot]

A long time ago now but I used to sit with an old man who led dogs for a dog trainer. Trainer would work with one dog while the old guy and I would hold the spare dogs on leads waiting their turn. I learnt more from that old man than I learnt from all the 'experts' (and the trainer was an 'expert'). He'd point out where the expert had gone wrong, what the dog was thinking, and why it did what it did. I also noticed that any dogs that went wrong were handed to the old man who took his time and had the patience but none of the trainer's flare for self promotion. As you say, her trainer clearly sees some value in this relationship. If she is a good trainer, respect her judgement in tolerating the hanger on.

It may be unprofessional but there is an old saying, "A wise man will even learn from a fool". Maybe the side kick has a point or two. Listen and learn and discard what you know to be untrue.

 

[peaceandquiet1]

A sidekick would put me off unless the trainer had asked if I minded. If I was paying for the lesson I would not appreciate the extra person without good reason.

 

[twiggy2]

i would not have an issue with the trainer bringing someone along, it would be nice to be asked if the rider minded though.
You can't stop anyone watching a lesson unless it is on your own land and out of sight after all.
If you dont like the way the extra person talks about the rider and horse then you could have said something but watchig listening etc is the best way to learn

 

[MuddyMonster]

IMHO, absolutely unprofessional, yes.

You're right, you can't stop random people watching or the comments they make (if only, eh?!). But I wouldn't expect that from someone I was a paying client of (or someone they had bought).

If it was me, I'd have a quiet word with the trainer out of earshot of the friend and just explain that they've been over-heard making less than pleasant comments & could they please refrain from doing so if they are to continue coming.

You are a paying client, after all.

 

[Greylegs]

Personally, I don't mind having an audience for lessons ... a hearty laugh does us good sometimes!!!) ... but my trainer knows I don't mind so it's not an issue. Other folks are bit more sensitive, so it's always nice to ask, or be asked. I agree that it's possible to learn a lot from just watching, but the unnecessary and disparaging comments aren't helpful.

We have a very well known trainer come to our yard to hold dressage clinics and his clients box in to visit him. He not only won't allow a random audience, but if anyone wants to watch (with his client's permission) I understand he actually charges for the privilege!

 

[skint1]

A long time ago now but I used to sit with an old man who led dogs for a dog trainer. Trainer would work with one dog while the old guy and I would hold the spare dogs on leads waiting their turn. I learnt more from that old man than I learnt from all the 'experts' (and the trainer was an 'expert'). He'd point out where the expert had gone wrong, what the dog was thinking, and why it did what it did. I also noticed that any dogs that went wrong were handed to the old man who took his time and had the patience but none of the trainer's flare for self promotion. As you say, her trainer clearly sees some value in this relationship. If she is a good trainer, respect her judgement in tolerating the hanger on.

It may be unprofessional but there is an old saying, "A wise man will even learn from a fool". Maybe the side kick has a point or two. Listen and learn and discard what you know to be untrue.

I think you raise a good point but in this situation it doesn't sound like this person is a particularly constructive sidekick. Their attitude would make me wonder what my trainer was saying about me behind my back, I don't know whether I'd say anything but I would probably look at some different instructors.

 

[Goldenstar]

Mildly unprofessional, But I grew up in a system where being watched ( and criticised ) was normal and it is a great preparation for going in the ring ( and I was a very ring shy rider at one point ) .
As long as the trainer is concentrating on and engaged with the person paying for the lesson I don't have an issue with it.

 

[alliwantforchristmas]

If the person was pleasant, sat quietly and/or only made constructive comments it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. The person you describe doesn't sound like she fits that criteria and therefore I wouldn't welcome her. I sometimes have people 'shadow' me on behaviour consults (dogs) - I ALWAYS ask permission of the client prior to the visit, most people are OK but some say no, and it's entirely their choice. Likewise if someone brings a dog to my premises for one to one training - spectators by permission only and I would expect them to act in a discreet, professional and supportive manner.

 

[Farma]

I think it's unprofessional, my sister spends a lot of time with me and often asks if she can come with me to lessons I have booked and I would never let her it would just seem totally amateur to turn up with someone unconnected to what you are being paid for especially if they decided to pass comment of any sort!

 

[Flicker]

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughts. I will relay the gist to my friend - I think she'd like to have a quiet word with her trainer but just needed to check out that she wasn't being unreasonable.
In terms of watching and learning, I absolutely agree that there is huge value in sitting with someone knowledgable and getting the benefit of that wisdom. Not sure that 'I don't know why they bother with horses' necessarily falls into that category, unfortunately...
I think I know the dressage trainer who charges to watch, and absolutely right. You don't spend that amount of time building that level of knowledge to give it away.

 

[splashgirl45]

my friend is a trainer and i used to sit in on lots of her lessons but would never say anything about the horse or rider, i did know all of her pupils and none of them minded. when you compete people watch you so its good to get used to it when you are having lessons. when i first started having lessons i didn't like anyone extra being there but never said anything and it did me good as i got used to it so made competing in front of people easier for me.

 

[Whoopit]

Everybody has an opinion and most people don't mind wielding it.

Bear in mind the trainer is doing their job teaching - they aren't waiting to listen to heckling from the peanut gallery so perhaps they don't know it occurs?

If I'd been sitting with her and she'd criticising a friend of mine I'd have said something to her. Doesn't have to be impolite, just point out that it isn't required as the rider already has a trainer.

 

[Overread]

It sounds like the trainer has taken on a student or someone keen to apprentice and ghost the trainer to learn the ropes. This might also mean that they are keen to be seen to know what they are doing and that can often result in them being heavily critical - because a critical mind often lands them well because they can identify faults and problems.

However many people get stuck in that line of thinking to the point where they can't see the good sides and they focus purely upon the bad. Others get a bullheaded approach over time that cements them into critical views only.




In general I would say that whenever I've been a trainee/volunteer at a site working with a professional the pro has always asked whoever is hiring if its ok for a trainee to be present. So yes your trainer should be asking you; however it might be that if they are training at a site they use often they have asked whoever is the site owner/manager if its ok and thus has assumed that the blanket "yes" from those on top counts for those underneath.


I would air concern that the trainers student is showing a less than professional attitude and that they appear to be focusing too heavily upon the negative aspects and that some reinforcement of the good as well as work toward resolution of the critical side might be in order.

You could also state that at this point in time you are uncomfortable with a viewer; although that might not have much effect if this is the only single person you dislike watching.

 

[Kezzabell2]

I hate hate hate people watching me ride! I know how your friend must feel as I too have a difficult youngster and if my instructor had turned up with a side kick that would say mean things it would have made things a million times worse! I'd make sure your friend lets her instructor know that she is not comfortable about having someone she doesn't know watching her ride, especially when she is finding the horse a bit difficult!

 

[Orangehorse]

It is OK to be watched by a third party, but the instructor should have asked the paying client first. In turn the instructor might be surprised that the client feels like this, but she shouldn't be.

 

[ebonyallen]

I think the trainer should seek the permission of the rider before bringing a sidekick along and the sidekick should keep their opinions to themselves. Unprofessional-yes.

This is what I was thinking, could not agree more with the above ^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Flicker]

The trainer has absolutely no idea that side-kick is making the comments she is. And of course I said something when she started slating my friend (once I got over my surprise).
What's been awkward for my friend is that the side-kick behaves like it's totally natural for her to be there so my friend would have to actually say '(side-kick) I'd rather you didn't sit in please'
Although I think she's now going to have a quiet word with the trainer and explain that, while the horse is being awkward, she'd prefer it to be just the two if them in the school.
Thanks so much for all your thoughts!

 

[mandyroberts]

...

 

[Orca]

The trainer has absolutely no idea that side-kick is making the comments she is. And of course I said something when she started slating my friend (once I got over my surprise).
What's been awkward for my friend is that the side-kick behaves like it's totally natural for her to be there so my friend would have to actually say '(side-kick) I'd rather you didn't sit in please'
Although I think she's now going to have a quiet word with the trainer and explain that, while the horse is being awkward, she'd prefer it to be just the two if them in the school.
Thanks so much for all your thoughts!

That's a really tactful way to approach it but shouldn't someone let the trainer know that their sidekick is being incredibly indiscrete about their clients and their abilities? I know some people have compared it to a show setting and yes, criticism and gossip on the sidelines can be part and parcel of that environment but during a paid for, private lesson, it's unacceptable.

 

[little_critter]

That's a really tactful way to approach it but shouldn't someone let the trainer know that their sidekick is being incredibly indiscrete about their clients and their abilities? I know some people have compared it to a show setting and yes, criticism and gossip on the sidelines can be part and parcel of that environment but during a paid for, private lesson, it's unacceptable.

I agree, I'd be saying something like "I've heard that [sidekick] has been saying unpleasant things about the lessons she watches so I don't want her to watch my lessons"
She could do some real damage as she clearly has no idea who she is talking to while spreading criticism. What if you'd been an owner or a sponsor?, her comments could jeopardise someone's career.

 

[Pedantic]

When I "pay" the vet to come to my Po, if she has a "trainee" with her, she asks me if it's ok for her "trainee" to be in on the examination or whatever, tell sidekick to coff. NOA

 

[peaceandquiet1]

If you are paying for a private lesson then it is a privilege for a sidekick to watch, and permission should be sought. Totally different at a show where you expect to be watched-and commented on haha.

 

[CBFan]

That's a really tactful way to approach it but shouldn't someone let the trainer know that their sidekick is being incredibly indiscrete about their clients and their abilities? I know some people have compared it to a show setting and yes, criticism and gossip on the sidelines can be part and parcel of that environment but during a paid for, private lesson, it's unacceptable.

This TOTALLY. If I were you OP, I'd be tempted to record some of her commentary on your phone if you can and then discretely play it to your friend's trainer so that she can hear exactly the sort of thing that is being said. I'm sure the trainer would be MORTIFIED to hear it!

 

[Flicker]

This TOTALLY. If I were you OP, I'd be tempted to record some of her commentary on your phone if you can and then discretely play it to your friend's trainer so that she can hear exactly the sort of thing that is being said. I'm sure the trainer would be MORTIFIED to hear it!

Oh my word I hadn't thought of that!! OMG that would be excruciating hahaha!

 

[tiggs]

As you know the trainer, could you mention it to her if you are there for the next lesson. You could just say quietly that it made you feel very uncomfortable the way she was criticising your friend and the trainer's other clients. It wouldn't then affect your friends relationship with the trainer