It’s no longer true that hard work…

[SO1]

I have just started riding at a RS after loosing my horse.

A beginner lesson for a child is £50. A group lesson once they can ride independently is £44 for 45 minutes. Adult lesson group is £56.

A child from a low income family is unlikely to be able to learn to ride and afford the £50 beginner lessons to get them in the saddle. Older children who have progressed to group lessons can then volunteer but to get to that point you would still need to be able to afford the beginner lessons at £50.

I enquired about jumping lessons. The riding school no longer do them. I used to ride here 20 years ago and we used to have group jumping lessons. They don't offer group or individual jumping lessons any more unless you are doing your stages.

 

[Red-1]

Im not sure about an influencer but definitely a vlogger ?

I thought that involved video. So, I am a logger?

The thread is about people getting to the top. By definition, not many people will get to the top, it would be too crowded up there to be the top.

My situation was that I was from a non horse, single parent family. Mum once got tickets for free to watch Chatsworth. I was entranced and visited the BHS tent, where the BHS lady, on me enquiring how to do this sport, told me I couldn't.

I am not top by any means, but 30 odd years later, I did the Chatsworth event. I was driven from that moment on and I got there.

Neither mum nor I got a degree, nor did we have an inheritance before I did Chatsworth. No family ties to lucrative work.

It is possible to do well still in this life, but I am not concerned about it being tricky to get to the top. I am concerned that some families are fearful of eating and staying warm this winter. I am fearful that some kids, as people have said, have no example as to be able to get up, dressed and to school on time. To feel they have no opportunity to succeed in any capacity in life. That concerns me.

I equate succeeding in top equestrian sport to driving a Ferrari (as you do need the equivalent equine version to succeed). Not many people will reach the ability to drive one of those either, monetarily or skill wise (you sometimes see the result of rich kids being bought one unawares). I am not worried about that.

I do agree that if there was a govt. backed scheme to help people try equestrianism and select people with raw talent, then we would have a higher medal tally. However, as we can't yet feed and clothe everyone, I don't think this should be a govt. priority.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I am probably seen as the rich one in my street! I still live in the same street I grew up in, five

I thought that involved video. So, I am a logger?

The thread is about people getting to the top. By definition, not many people will get to the top, it would be too crowded up there to be the top.

My situation was that I was from a non horse, single parent family. Mum once got tickets for free to watch Chatsworth. I was entranced and visited the BHS tent, where the BHS lady, on me enquiring how to do this sport, told me I couldn't.

I am not top by any means, but 30 odd years later, I did the Chatsworth event. I was driven from that moment on and I got there.

Neither mum nor I got a degree, nor did we have an inheritance before I did Chatsworth.

It is possible to do well still in this life, but I am not concerned about it being tricky to get to the top. I am concerned that some families are fearful of eating and staying warm this winter. I am fearful that some kids, as people have said, have no example as to be able to get up, dressed and to school on time. To feel they have no opportunity to succeed in any capacity in life. That concerns me.

I equate succeeding in top equestrian sport to driving a Ferrari (as you do need the equivalent to succeed). Not many people will reach the ability to drive one of those either. I am not worried about that.

I do agree that if there was a govt. backed scheme to help people try equestrianism and select people with raw talent, then we would have a higher medal tally. However, as we can't yet feed and clothe anyone, I don't think this should be a govt. priority.

blogger then? ? who knows?

 

[Barton Bounty]

I thought that involved video. So, I am a logger?

The thread is about people getting to the top. By definition, not many people will get to the top, it would be too crowded up there to be the top.

My situation was that I was from a non horse, single parent family. Mum once got tickets for free to watch Chatsworth. I was entranced and visited the BHS tent, where the BHS lady, on me enquiring how to do this sport, told me I couldn't.

I am not top by any means, but 30 odd years later, I did the Chatsworth event. I was driven from that moment on and I got there.

Neither mum nor I got a degree, nor did we have an inheritance before I did Chatsworth. No family ties to lucrative work.

It is possible to do well still in this life, but I am not concerned about it being tricky to get to the top. I am concerned that some families are fearful of eating and staying warm this winter. I am fearful that some kids, as people have said, have no example as to be able to get up, dressed and to school on time. To feel they have no opportunity to succeed in any capacity in life. That concerns me.

I equate succeeding in top equestrian sport to driving a Ferrari (as you do need the equivalent to succeed). Not many people will reach the ability to drive one of those either. I am not worried about that.

I do agree that if there was a govt. backed scheme to help people try equestrianism and select people with raw talent, then we would have a higher medal tally. However, as we can't yet feed and clothe anyone, I don't think this should be a govt. priority.

Totally agree with you….
I never came from a Privileged life, was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth either but my parents worked hard. First pony at 10 , I went to the odd show when I was a kid/teenager never as a serious prospect. For me it was the whole horse ownership for me. I love mucking out and all the other stuff.
I am not money smart I am a fritterer lol… cant save to save my life ?
But in the street I live in, is the street I grew up in, my mortgage is next to nothing and nearly finished, long before I am 50. I probably am seen as well off in my street but I never did aspire to own a massive fancy house house that would take a week to clean so I just stayed close to my parents for the kids sakes as well. There are people in my street that are not necessarily deprived but the parents definitely need to get their priorities right. Visit the foodbank 4 times a week, baby no 7 on the way because their tax credits are running out for the first born now. Both smoke 40 plus cigarettes a day, while their kids shoes are flapping at the toes!!
what chance have the kids got… already started to get in trouble from the police because there is no desire to better themselves

 

[Annagain]

Totally agree with you….
I never came from a Privileged life, was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth either but my parents worked hard. First pony at 10 , I went to the odd show when I was a kid/teenager never as a serious prospect. For me it was the whole horse ownership for me. I love mucking out and all the other stuff.
I am not money smart I am a fritterer lol… cant save to save my life ?
But in the street I live in, is the street I grew up in, my mortgage is next to nothing and nearly finished, long before I am 50. I probably am seen as well off in my street but I never did aspire to own a massive fancy house house that would take a week to clean so I just stayed close to my parents for the kids sakes as well. There are people in my street that are not necessarily deprived but the parents definitely need to get their priorities right. Visit the foodbank 4 times a week, baby no 7 on the way because their tax credits are running out for the first born now. Both smoke 40 plus cigarettes a day, while their kids shoes are flapping at the toes!!
what chance have the kids got… already started to get in trouble from the police because there is no desire to better themselves

Are you sure of your facts there BB? You can't just visit a foodbank, you have to be referred by a professional (GP, social worker etc) and certainly not 4 times a week - they're for emergency use not ongoing support - and they supply three days worth of food so 4 times a week just isn't necessary, even if it were possible. If a family with 7 kids is in a position that they're relying on foodbanks for all their food there is something very seriously wrong (spending £280 a week on fags rather than feeding your children is neglect) and the foodbank and other agencies will have stepped in. How food banks work - The Trussell Trust

Also, child support is now capped to two for any children born after 2017 so an extra child will not help them get more money from the state.

Maybe the kids are getting into trouble because the family don't have money to pay for them to do things that will occupy them or because they feel so divorced from a society that has never given them the opportunity or even shown them that it is possible to better themselves they don't feel they are subject to that society's rules?

It's easy to demonise people for being lazy, relying on handouts from the state or charity or for having 'no desire to better themselves'. Far harder to try to understand WHY they're in that position and offer practical solutions.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Are you sure of your facts there BB? You can't just visit a foodbank, you have to be referred by a professional (GP, social worker etc) and certainly not 4 times a week - they're for emergency use not ongoing support - and they supply three days worth of food so 4 times a week just isn't necessary, even if it were possible. If a family with 7 kids is in a position that they're relying on foodbanks for all their food there is something very seriously wrong (spending £280 a week on fags rather than feeding your children is neglect) and the foodbank and other agencies will have stepped in. How food banks work - The Trussell Trust

Also, child support is now capped to two for any children born after 2017 so an extra child will not help them get more money from the state.

Maybe the kids are getting into trouble because the family don't have money to pay for them to do things that will occupy them or because they feel so divorced from a society that has never given them the opportunity or even shown them that it is possible to better themselves they don't feel they are subject to that society's rules?

It's easy to demonise people for being lazy, relying on handouts from the state or charity or for having 'no desire to better themselves'. Far harder to try to understand WHY they're in that position and offer practical solutions.

I know how it works she consistently brags about it, yes!
and the fact that social work pay for all her christmases etc so yes

 

[sakura]

Maybe the kids are getting into trouble because the family don't have money to pay for them to do things that will occupy them or because they feel so divorced from a society that has never given them the opportunity or even shown them that it is possible to better themselves they don't feel they are subject to that society's rules?

It's easy to demonise people for being lazy, relying on handouts from the state or charity or for having 'no desire to better themselves'. Far harder to try to understand WHY they're in that position and offer practical solutions.

100% this ^ ^

Every single one of us who owns a horse is privileged. Some more than others, but still privileged. There is real poverty in the world, and probably on your own street. Who cares about influencers and top athletes when there are people starving?

 

[milliepops]

That's you told then lec ?

I do think it's OK to have a multi-layered discussion about things without it having to be shut down because someone is always worse off.

 

[Annagain]

That's you told then lec ?

I do think it's OK to have a multi-layered discussion about things without it having to be shut down because someone is always worse off.

Absolutely, but I think it's also important to recognise your privilege too. Apart from anything being thankful for what you have makes you happier.

 

[YorksG]

I know how it works she consistently brags about it, yes!
and the fact that social work pay for all her christmases etc so yes

Which social services area does she live in, because there is no area that I know of that "pay for Christmas" even "looked after children" have quite severe restrictions on the amount available for Christmas presents.

 

[TPO]

Which social services area does she live in, because there is no area that I know of that "pay for Christmas" even "looked after children" have quite severe restrictions on the amount available for Christmas presents.

If there was an ounce of truth in those ludicrous claims there wouldn't be children going without visits from santa never mind daily meals!

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I know how it works she consistently brags about it, yes!
and the fact that social work pay for all her christmases etc so yes

40 fags a day at a tenner a pack of 20 isnt sustainable by anyone on benefits.
£140 a week for each parent?
I think not, not knowing what benefit levels are!

 

[Ellibelli]

That's you told then lec ?

I do think it's OK to have a multi-layered discussion about things without it having to be shut down because someone is always worse off.

I agree, but statements like 'it all comes down to valuing education and hard work' and other similar comments are just crass and show a total lack of awareness of what is happening in this country

 

[sakura]

That's you told then lec ?

I do think it's OK to have a multi-layered discussion about things without it having to be shut down because someone is always worse off.

It's about balancing perspective. There's always someone worse off, but there's also a massive difference between being able to own a horse and having to rely on food banks (who do an amazing job and don't get enough credit!).

 

[milliepops]

I agree, but statements like 'it all comes down to valuing education and hard work' and other similar comments are just crass and show a total lack of awareness of what is happening in this country

I don't disagree but the comment "who cares" on a horse related thread in tack room is a bit of a conversation closer. If it was a current affairs thread, fair enough but this did start from a particular point relating to horse sport rather than a general point about inequality in society.

 

[blitznbobs]

I agree, but statements like 'it all comes down to valuing education and hard work' and other similar comments are just crass and show a total lack of awareness of what is happening in this country

the person who made the ‘crass statement’ as you put it, is probably the person who is actually doing the most in real terms to try and change those realities buy trying to deal on a really practical basis to treat some of the core issues that mean that those things arent valued. Any statement taken out of context can be deemed insensitive— I am currently investing most of my wealth in a wellness centre to address mental health issues / people with difficulty due to neurodiversity -
Ill give you two scenarios to show what im trying to say.(extreme example)

two children lets say they are both really good at maths.

They both get offers from oxford to study pure maths.

both come from homes where their parents are broke.

one is a ‘middle classed’ family that are broke because they have illness issues etc

one is a ‘working class’ family who work hard but have minimum wage jobs so never have extra to go around.

the middle class family may well tell/ encourage the child to borrow the 50k that is needed for the childs education because they know with a maths degree in oxford the child will walk into a’quant’ job in a bank and make that back in their signing bonus…

the ‘working class’ family thinks about a 50k debt in their world and knows that they could never pay it back, have never even heard of a ‘quant’ dont know anyone who earns 100k as a base salary and tells them that they cant afford it and to get a ‘good’ job in an office or similar.

the opportunity is the same, the money situation is the same but life experience results in a very different outcome… the wealth divide gets bigger.

this is the problem i am talking about, and to some extent what i want to address.
its not just about money in the bank but knowledge and understanding that is the base of privilege— thinking like the person you want to emulate not the person you are now… It is so hard to step out from how you were brought up and it is this that is almost impossible to address because someone else cant do it for you.

 

[sakura]

I don't disagree but the comment "who cares" on a horse related thread in tack room is a bit of a conversation closer. If it was a current affairs thread, fair enough but this did start from a particular point relating to horse sport rather than a general point about inequality in society.

Because that's my opinion, it doesn't have to be yours nor does it have to stop any discussion.

 

[daydreamer]

There is a very interesting book called Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell which includes stories about how success can be selected for in hidden ways.

For example 40% of professional Canadian hockey players have birthdays between January and March. This is because of how the selection criteria works in youth hockey which then gives players who are a bit older than their peers an advantage as they are seen as better (although it is probably just that they are a bit bigger and more coordinated) so are then given access to better training, play more matches etc. There are other interesting examples too which show success is not always as simple as luck or working hard or how much money you have.

 

[TPO]

Because that's my opinion, it doesn't have to be yours nor does it have to stop any discussion.

But you've come onto a thread SPECIFICALLY about equestrian competition to say "who cares". There have been numerous threads about, or that have spiralled into being about, people not understanding privilege and the unfairness, for want of a better word, of society.

I dont want to speak for the OP, who is more than capable of speaking for themselves, but my take was it has often been muted that if you work hard enough *something* will fall into place to let you climb the competitive ladder.

OP was giving her opinion that the gap is far too wide because of the funds available to so many in the sport. Access to that kind of money eclipses hard work alone.

That was literally the topic. I mean really everyone on here should sell their horses, saddlery, transport and riding gear to donate to less fortunate people.The truth is that's not going to happen so while the "average horse owner" will continue ots a worthwhile and interesting discussion as to how far hard work (& talent) can take you alone

 

[LEC]

Thanks TPO, actually that was the point of this thread. All the time you are told if you work hard then success will happen, well we all work pretty hard but it’s a fundamental lie in competition horses.

Do you know what has made me luckier? (I actually don’t believe in luck) More great quality horses. If one gets injured, I have another. Less pressure on one horse, more time to train and my rate of progress ?, attend more competitions and the list goes… so more horses = more money + more time. Both which I have been able to do since covid as I am super privileged with working at home and a decent job. Don’t worry, karma has bitten me on the arse with my health though!

I wasn’t very eloquent about the instagrammers but essentially my thought while watching them was they have a lot of content as they are super privileged. This then generates them money. Not so much content if you attend a riding school once a month…

Of course I could pump all my money into funding education for females in lower socio economic areas but I don’t. I have a friend who has stage 4 cancer and is doing incredible things, I do nothing. Do I have any guilt about it? Sometimes. Luckily I don’t believe in god, heaven and hell really! But personal responsibility wasn’t the point of my thread, it’s about the perpetual lie we are fed in horse magazines that with hard work anyone can make it. I have written on e-venting on this subject before but plonked it in here as it’s a busier area and less competitive orientated riders so wanted to get different feed in.

 

[sakura]

It’s still just my opinion on the topic being discussed.

I was agreeing with another post because it’s my opinion that you can’t have one conversation without the other.

 

[LEC]

And actually what annoys me most about the hard work lie is top riders NEVER acknowledge their privilege in interviews probably because they feel it diminishes what they do. ‘I work so hard blah blah.’ IMO it doesn’t, it just keeps things real for a change.
Sure they do, we all do. But take our recent Badminton winner, her mother ferried her for hours and hours round the country so she could ride show ponies. This gave her access to top yards, top trainers and top ponies. Plus she was short and didn’t outgrow before her age limit hit. Her mother managed to access Walnut, one of the most prolific junior schoolmaster horses. I could go on and on. Bubby Upton family is so rich she had a string of 6 horses who were £££ at 16 with a groom etc. but we never talk about it….

 

[teapot]

And actually what annoys me most about the hard work lie is top riders NEVER acknowledge their privilege in interviews probably because they feel it diminishes what they do. ‘I work so hard blah blah.’ IMO it doesn’t, it just keeps things real for a change.
Sure they do, we all do. But take our recent Badminton winner, her mother ferried her for hours and hours round the country so she could ride show ponies. This gave her access to top yards, top trainers and top ponies. Plus she was short and didn’t outgrow before her age limit hit. Her mother managed to access Walnut, one of the most prolific junior schoolmaster horses. I could go on and on. Bubby Upton family is so rich she had a string of 6 horses who were £££ at 16 with a groom etc. but we never talk about it….

I want to love this post.

 

[honetpot]

I never said it was easy or that PB didn't work for it but she was offered an opportunity that isn't afforded to everyone.

Can you not see she made that opportunity, I know other young people who have worked for pro riders and not be able to convert that in to an offer of a ride.

 

[TPO]

Can you not see she made that opportunity, I know other young people who have worked for pro riders and not be able to convert that in to an offer of a ride.

That's the point, she and others will have worked extremely hard but the person that PB worked for was ABLE/WILLING to GIVE her that opportunity. There will probably even be posters on here who worked incredibly hard and were good at what they did but were not afforded similar opportunity.

This thread isn't about PB and once again I am not knocking her in any way. quite the opposite actually.

She benefited from certain circumstances. Her parents lived where they did putting her in close proximity to an eventer, most 13/14yrs olds are still in school full time, a lot of professionals wouldn't want "underage" kids on their yard/working for them, access to good/any horses, able to watch and learn from a professional. Hard working Jolene Bloggs living in a city centre, attending school full time and not in walking/cycling distance of a nice eventer who wants to support future generations has less opportunity through no fault of her own and no amount of hard work can make up for that. I don't know how to word it any differently to explain my point any clearer. If this still doesn't make sense to you perhaps read the book "Bounce" which illustrates how some athletes have benefited from something as simple as the street they lived in (the author living in the catchment area for the local youth club run by a table tennis champion and therefore produced a lot of table champions by default, including the author. No denial of the hard work and training he put in but it was circumstance that led him to that club and generosity and ability to engage with the kids that the adult had that opened the door)

Again, not taking anything away from PB and undoubtedly she did/does work very hard and was/is very talented.

 

[RachelFerd]

And actually what annoys me most about the hard work lie is top riders NEVER acknowledge their privilege in interviews probably because they feel it diminishes what they do. ‘I work so hard blah blah.’ IMO it doesn’t, it just keeps things real for a change.
Sure they do, we all do. But take our recent Badminton winner, her mother ferried her for hours and hours round the country so she could ride show ponies. This gave her access to top yards, top trainers and top ponies. Plus she was short and didn’t outgrow before her age limit hit. Her mother managed to access Walnut, one of the most prolific junior schoolmaster horses. I could go on and on. Bubby Upton family is so rich she had a string of 6 horses who were £££ at 16 with a groom etc. but we never talk about it….

BU family is so rich that they have purpose built a world class XC training facility that they don't open on any kind of commercial basis, as they can afford not to.

I was driven mad by a podcast celebrating how hard she had worked because she managed to event at 5* level whilst flying to Edinburgh every week to study at University. That is NOT the kind of hard work I want to see celebrated. That's a grossly privileged environmental disaster.

 

[oldie48]

Advantage operates in every sphere of life, I accept that and it is not possible to mitigate completely against it, some will succeed against the odds but most won't and some sports are more elitist than others. It's surely no accident that most of the world class boxers come from working class homes and most top class athletes in sports like sailing, skiing, equestrian etc don't. We found some super talented people in the run up to the 2012 Olympics by having "have a go" sessions where people could be assessed for their natural aptitude to certain sporting activities but some sports just need years of familiarity before people even start to show a special talent. Actually I am happy to celebrate anyone who competes at the highest level of any sport and with 5* eventing I don't care if they got there because they are privileged or not, their neck still breaks like anyone else's!

 

[ihatework]

Advantage operates in every sphere of life, I accept that and it is not possible to mitigate completely against it, some will succeed against the odds but most won't and some sports are more elitist than others. It's surely no accident that most of the world class boxers come from working class homes and most top class athletes in sports like sailing, skiing, equestrian etc don't. We found some super talented people in the run up to the 2012 Olympics by having "have a go" sessions where people could be assessed for their natural aptitude to certain sporting activities but some sports just need years of familiarity before people even start to show a special talent. Actually I am happy to celebrate anyone who competes at the highest level of any sport and with 5* eventing I don't care if they got there because they are privileged or not, their neck still breaks like anyone else's!

Agree! But I think the point is, acknowledge the privilage.
(And for me be a nice humble person about it too, but hey we can’t have everything can we!)

 

[scats]

BU family is so rich that they have purpose built a world class XC training facility that they don't open on any kind of commercial basis, as they can afford not to.

I was driven mad by a podcast celebrating how hard she had worked because she managed to event at 5* level whilst flying to Edinburgh every week to study at University. That is NOT the kind of hard work I want to see celebrated. That's a grossly privileged environmental disaster.

It would have been interesting to see how successful she’d have become if she was from a working class family, keeping horses on a bog standard livery yard and trying to fit horses and riding in among a job and university, like a lot of people do.

 

[LEC]

It would have been interesting to see how successful she’d have become if she was from a working class family, keeping horses on a bog standard livery yard and trying to fit horses and riding in among a job and university, like a lot of people do.

She wouldn’t have been…. Because she was trained by the best from day one and sat on the best ponies from day 1 and able to attend the best schools etc