It only took three years.

[ycbm]

Please be nice, I'm not looking for constructive (or destructive!) criticism. I know exactly what Rizzle's problems are. In this order - nerves, nerves and lastly, nerves. I know my own faults too, there are plenty.

It has taken me three years to get him fit enough to do this, with PSSM which still shows in his lack of strength. He is 7. Then I've had to teach him to travel twice over, and he currently travels squashed in with bumper pads or he sits down. For three years he's been unable to settle enough to do this test in public. He can't cope yet with cantering in an empty competition warm up, never mind in a test. He's also a stress triggered head shaker, as you will see.

This is also the horse who features in many sarcoid threads, threads about planting, lack of coordination, and it's the anorexic horse. I hand fed him today because he won't eat after travelling. It took half an hour to feed it back in the side of his mouth as he repeatedly spat it out the front, but if he doesn't get it, he'll get ill with the PSSM.

So, tell me, am I wasting my time, or does he have the potential that he feels like he has when I ride him?

(He is long backed but not drastically so. The aspect ratio is showing different on a PC than on a tablet).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vHGIbHDKBWk

 

[oldie48]

What does your heart tell you? You know this horse and clearly love him to bits and you are the only person who can really know know if you are wasting your time or if he has real potential. The real question is "does he want to do the job" if he does and you can work through the tension, then who knows what you both can achieve. He's very pretty!

 

[scats]

Given everything you've outlined in your post, I think he looks bloomin fabulous considering how high maintenance he is and his health issues, and yes, I think there is a smart horse in there.

Long and short of it, are you enjoying the journey with him, or feeling a sense of achievement and pride at each new goal? If so, then it is absolutely worth carrying on (provided he is happy to, obviously)

I don't know much about him, what is his history?

 

[ycbm]

I love riding the moments when he does what he can do without stress. Including three top class warmbloods, he gives me some of the best feeling I've ever ridden, especially his canter, which is enormous and airborne.

He's a quarter horse (international in hand standard - Impressive, DNA tested) crossed with an unknown IDx mare, bred in Ireland. Why they imported US QH semen is anyone's guess, the stud is closed and I can't ask them.

He drives me mad and makes me proud of what I've achieved with him in equal measure. Patience was never my strong point and he's definitely taught me that!


There is something strangely attractive about his mental fragility and fear. And he is so pretty! I'm tall, by the way, and he is approaching 16.3, so all in all a very unusual horse.

 

[ycbm]

What does your heart tell you? You know this horse and clearly love him to bits and you are the only person who can really know know if you are wasting your time or if he has real potential. The real question is "does he want to do the job" if he does and you can work through the tension, then who knows what you both can achieve. He's very pretty!

He tries so hard to do what he knows I want. He's a very sweet, fearful boy. I love him and he frustrates me at the same time. He's a paradox!

 

[SEL]

He's stunning. My PSSM mare is also 7 and I decided that she's in my life to teach me patience and that there is no quick solution - it took me 8 weeks after her last tie up before she could trot under saddle without feeling like she was going to collapse. She can barely canter without a rider!

I'm not looking for a competition horse so I suppose it's different for me. It's b***** hard work though and I've never stressed over a horse as much as I do wth her.

I like your horse and both your posts above make me think that you do too. I suppose it depends on whether your happy with the little achievements or whether you're chasing those top prizes which he may never be able to win. Me? I'm over the moon when mine manages 3 strides in canter!!

 

[ycbm]

I'm not chasing prizes. I'm not interested in Regionals or Nationals. I have another seven year old doing medium at home. I don't compete him, I just love training him. This boy, I've taken out for the last two Saturdays because I think/hope that it will help him mature mentally. It seems to be working. I also love the trip out, the place I go to has a great cafe! Chilli today

I'm ridiculously pleased that as a seven year old, he finally centers twenty metre circles at home.

I suppose I just want to know if other people think he's as lovely as I sometimes think he is!


I feel for you, yours is a lot more difficult to manage than mine is, but PSSM is a bummer, isn't it?

 

[DabDab]

In short yes, there are glimmers and moments there that are definitely worth developing. He looks like he could be a really good technical dressage horse and will need the technical fiddly work to bring out the best in him.

He's definitely got something about him, I really like him

 

[ycbm]

In short yes, there are glimmers and moments there that are definitely worth developing. He looks like he could be a really good technical dressage horse and will need the technical fiddly work to bring out the best in him.

He's definitely got something about him, I really like him

Oh good ref the 'technical and fiddly', he finds leg yield and shoulder in very easy at home, and early signs are that lengthening is also easy for him if he lets go of the tension. The outline you see at times is completely natural, I don't ask for it and he does it loose in the field as well. He has an attractive 'stallion' neck which I assume he inherited from his double muscled father.

You will notice, though, that I ride him in an air jacket. He has the wickedest spin I've ever sat if something frightens him! And it does. Often!

 

[be positive]

Oh good ref the 'technical and fiddly', he finds leg yield and shoulder in very easy at home, and early signs are that lengthening is also easy for him if he lets go of the tension. The outline you see at times is completely natural, I don't ask for it and he does it loose in the field as well. He has an attractive 'stallion' neck which I assume he inherited from his double muscled father.

You will notice, though, that I ride him in an air jacket. He has the wickedest spin I've ever sat if something frightens him! And it does. Often!

It is interesting that he finds leg yield/ shoulder in/ extending easy as to me the best moments in the test were just after he looked at the horse coming towards him, about 1min in, and you put some more pressure on with your legs, I wonder if he likes the security of you being more proactive, it may be that he feels as if you cannot put too much pressure on so sit a bit too quietly at times, i have know a few nervy ones that have benefited from a slightly stronger approach than you would expect them to cope with, they can take confidence from you getting tough as long as it is done with care.

 

[ycbm]

It is interesting that he finds leg yield/ shoulder in/ extending easy as to me the best moments in the test were just after he looked at the horse coming towards him, about 1min in, and you put some more pressure on with your legs, I wonder if he likes the security of you being more proactive, it may be that he feels as if you cannot put too much pressure on so sit a bit too quietly at times, i have know a few nervy ones that have benefited from a slightly stronger approach than you would expect them to cope with, they can take confidence from you getting tough as long as it is done with care.

He can't take pressure, he backs off and then shuts down. He can even simply stop and refuse to move. The eyes go dull, and that's it, you've lost him.

I'm not sitting as quietly as I look. He's been taught to move, now!, from a calf muscle squeeze, and that's what I'm doing all the time, half halting with a finger squeeze to stop him rushing off, which is what he would prefer in a scary situation.

He surprised me today how much pressure I was able to put on compared with last week when he kept trying to leave the arena.

I've also tapped him a few times with the whip, but that makes him buck, so has to be done with care.

He does, though, love a 'confining' contact that I often fail to give him, because that's not my own preferred style.

 

[hobo]

That must have been lovely for you and I also think considering your troubles with him it looked good.

The only thing I know abut Quarter horse breeding is that 'Impressive' offspring have a genetic problem so not surprized that you have problems. But he looks great so you must be doing something right. The wicked spin is probably genetic as well so they can spin round those barrels & cattle.

Well done.

 

[Cortez]

Umm, if you really love him and doing all the fiddling about then of course the answer is to continue. I have one who is a rescue, a problem and a challenge and I love riding him, but if what you (or I) wanted to do is to train, progress and ultimately have a forward, balanced, happy horse that is a pleasure to ride and compete, then I would say get something that is straightforward (I've just added one of those; Mr Rescue is staying here 'til the end of his days). The horse is a pretty colour, but not going to set the world on fire.

 

[ycbm]

That must have been lovely for you and I also think considering your troubles with him it looked good.

The only thing I know abut Quarter horse breeding is that 'Impressive' offspring have a genetic problem so not surprized that you have problems. But he looks great so you must be doing something right. The wicked spin is probably genetic as well so they can spin round those barrels & cattle.

Well done.

Impressive is the source of HYPP, which thankfully he has no signs of having, since he seems to have almost everything else

 

[ycbm]

Umm, if you really love him and doing all the fiddling about then of course the answer is to continue. I have one who is a rescue, a problem and a challenge and I love riding him, but if what you (or I) wanted to do is to train, progress and ultimately have a forward, balanced, happy horse that is a pleasure to ride and compete, then I would say get something that is straightforward (I've just added one of those; Mr Rescue is staying here 'til the end of his days). The horse is a pretty colour, but not going to set the world on fire.

I have something straightforward Cortez. He's doing flying changes, half pass and is showing quite an ability to be able to piaffe, at the same age. And this one, of course, is a lot more settled to ride at home, where he does often give me a great feeling.

We call him my 'project horse', he's been sent here to teach me patience!

I don't love the problems he gives me, but once you've got them you've got them, so what can you do. That's what you get when you buy a horse because he's your childhood pony dream colour

 

[Wheels]

He is a striking looking horse and I agree that with all his problems you have done well getting him out. I hate to say though that he doesn't look 100% comfortable to me, his movement appears to be quite stiff, stilted and uneven at times. Whether that is the PSSM or not I wouldn't know but there is maybe other things going on there too. This may or may not be the reason for the tension and if it is then the tension will always be there if the horse is not totally sound.

Not that I'm stalking you but another video did come up after, a very short clip of the horse at another time and he appeared to be moving much more freely which is an indicator that he may well be in pain currently.

I don't know much about PSSM horses but are they constantly in pain?

 

[SpringArising]

his movement appears to be quite stiff, stilted and uneven at times

Not that I'm stalking you but another video did come up after, a very short clip of the horse at another time and he appeared to be moving much more freely

I think he moves very nicely here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFH3d2P0se4 but in the video he looks tense and very backwards. I wouldn't necessarily say he looks in pain but he does look like he might go a bit more nicely in a longer, lower contact.

 

[ycbm]

I'm always bemused by comparing a clip taken when schooling and a clip taken in a horse's first competition in a ring.

That clip was taken when he was backed for me, was at home where I bought him from, and he is on the lunge, which he has never, at that point in his life, been ridden without.

You will see from my comment above that this horse values security, and he is clearly feeling secure on the lunge with no decisions to make for himself, and when no-one even makes him trot a full circle before they bring him back to walk again to rebalance.

He looks tense? He was. Read my first post He is neither unsound, nor in pain. What you see is what happens to him whenever you put him under mental pressure. In the context of what he used to do when nervous (either freeze or spin), he behaved superbly and I'm very proud of him.

 

[Leo Walker]

I don't know much about PSSM horses but are they constantly in pain?

The 2 people I know with PSSM horses have pretty much retired them as they cant keep them right no matter what they do exercise/diet etc wise. One is seriously considering PTS now. This is at odds with what people say on here though, so I dunno

He does look uncomfortable compared to the other video someone posted. If you have another horse, is it worth making this one compete? He must be distressed if hes not eating afterwards and struggling to travel like that. Why put him through it?

 

[DiNozzo]

I'm always bemused by anyone who thinks you can compare a clip taken when schooling and a clip taken in a horse's first competition in a ring.

He looks tense? He was. In the context of what he is capable of when nervous, he behaved superbly and I'm very proud of him.

On the basis of the video of the test- I don't think he looks anything special, and I personally wouldn't bother trying to produce him (however, all the best on your journey with him!). I think he doesn't look 100% sound either, although I'm pretty rubbish at soundness so feel free to ignore me, but he looks short on both back legs to me.

I too looked at the other videos of him on Youtube, and the earlier ones certainly show a lot more 'potential'- bigger, more fluid paces and generally a happier outlook on life!

EDIT: I agree that taking him out to teach him about life is a good thing- horses don't learn by never experiencing pressure.

By 'earlier videos' I meant the ones at home with no pressure, where yes, he does look a lot better, and if eventually that can be emulated away from home, then you've more patience than I'll ever have!

Hopefully he'll learn by going out and seeing real life that home is not scary and he'll be easier to manage!

 

[ycbm]

The 2 people I know with PSSM horses have pretty much retired them as they cant keep them right no matter what they do exercise/diet etc wise. One is seriously considering PTS now. This is at odds with what people say on here though, so I dunno

He does look uncomfortable compared to the other video someone posted. If you have another horse, is it worth making this one compete? He must be distressed if hes not eating afterwards and struggling to travel like that. Why put him through it?

It's a spectrum disease. Mine are on the easy end of the scale to manage.

I do it because every time he goes somewhere it helps him grow up. I can see it in his behaviour. He cannot have the perfect routine he would prefer, never leaving home, always doing exactly the same thing at the same time of day. I owe it to him to train him to understand that it will not kill him to do different things.

That can only be achieved by repetition, not by giving up.



PS he isn't struggling to travel, he travels perfectly with his bumpers. He loves the cushioned support they give him.

 

[Wheels]

I wasn't actually referring to the video of him on the lunge. It was one in a lesson by the looks of things with other horses in the arena. Was that at home?

As I said it was a short clip and I don't know the horses history or anything about you or him, it was just my thoughts on the video you posted.

For what it's worth I have a horse here who worked well at home and went very green and backwards whenever we went out be that to a lesson, clinic, show or whatever and at first I put it down to security issues but in the end I think it was early signs of lameness issues which came out in the end at home too. I think the travelling was hard on him.

 

[ycbm]

Can't even remember that video, but he's always been to the same group lesson so I know where you mean. Again, if you aren't in the ring needing to do certain movements at certain times, then it's a whole different ball game, tension wise. In those lessons, he used to feel, and often was, completely explosive. But it was simple to get him to show off his paces because he's always moving towards another horse. On his own, at home, it was a challenge to teach him to go forwards from the leg at all at four and five, but we got there and he's a very responsive ride now.


One of the things I was happiest about with this test was how comparatively settled he felt in a completely strange environment. I guess it doesn't come across in the video how far he's come unless you know him. I was a bit dumb to post an early effort, really, I just felt so chuffed with him.

Happily, the judge liked him a lot And I love him, though god knows why sometimes

 

[DabDab]

He is a striking looking horse and I agree that with all his problems you have done well getting him out. I hate to say though that he doesn't look 100% comfortable to me, his movement appears to be quite stiff, stilted and uneven at times. Whether that is the PSSM or not I wouldn't know but there is maybe other things going on there too. This may or may not be the reason for the tension and if it is then the tension will always be there if the horse is not totally sound.

Not that I'm stalking you but another video did come up after, a very short clip of the horse at another time and he appeared to be moving much more freely which is an indicator that he may well be in pain currently.

I don't know much about PSSM horses but are they constantly in pain?

I'm transferring what I know about my horse across, which may be dangerous but
Mine will merrily trundle round in a very similar way given the option. All those big muscles at the back end seem to be those most affected by PSSM, and you've got to remember that, however good they may feel on that particular day, you are dealing with a horse who for years of their life had bum muscles that ache constantly and a lactic acid type burn whenever they try to use them enthusiastically. Whatever you do to correct the effect that the condition has on the horse in the here and now, that is one hell of a piece of emotional baggage that will colour all work you do with the horse.

It would be far far far easier for me to chuck my guy out in the field and leave him, ignoring the increasingly pained expression on his face. But I know how much happier he is now in the level of work he is in now, and seeing how he grows in confidence and freedom of movement as his physical strength increases, I feel like I owe it to him to do as much as I can with him.

 

[Mike007]

Wow ,you had so much outside distraction working against you in that test . Bob the notacob would have had a total china syndrome meltdown . (leastways up until recently) . It has also been a tough road for us and some of the major progressions have been from the most unlikely things . I never used to carry a stick . yet I started to carry one simply to give him a tap on the shoulder every time he got distracted ,simply to regain his attention. Didnt need it for long as he learned. I stopped schooling at home as the school terrifies him (and most other horses ) We even have named one corner "spookers corner"they all hate it.Spurs, who needs spurs on a fireball Irish draught , actually he goes so much better with them , he gets the message now of moving away from the leg. Its such a learning curve . And surely thats the fun of it. Bob got his first 8 in a test recently , for his entry down the centre line at trot. We absolutely nailed it ! I could see the look in the judges eyes.**** there is the best part of a tonne of Irish draught coming straight at me!!!. I was so proud of him ! Dont care if we didnt win , I knew how far he had come to do that one movement. Stick with it .

 

[ycbm]

Oh Mike. You get it! Thank you so much for that post.

 

[milliepops]

it's a bit of a funny OP because you are asking if he has potential, which it sounds like he does have.... but whether you will realise that potential or not is another matter I mean that in a nice way!

I also have a weird one, not with the same physical issues but mentally rather a difficult ride and she is similar in a way. Hard to get the good stuff out of her at a show. She's training advanced at home, we've got tempis and piris in the school she is familiar with and she's begun half steps under saddle, but really is just about ready brain-wise to do an elementary out and about (so coaxing her around medium/advanced medium is a challenge! )

Am I wasting my time with her? No, because I enjoy the mental chewing gum of training her and I love watching her develop when it's just the 2 of us in the school....
....and yes, because she will always be a scaredy-cat short-ar$e welsh, who is not going to win any medals! I haven't got a better option so we will keep on going.

so yours wouldn't be my preferred ride, but then not many people would enjoy riding mine lucky for both of ours, they found their place in the world.

 

[dozzie]

I had one once who wouldn't eat (for several weeks) after travelling. I found lungeing him for 20 minutes before he went on the box helped. The same horse was completely stressed out by electricity cables. I worked it out at Newbury Showground which is local to me. He was completely manic near the main roadways (where the underground cable were) Then completely stress free 20m away. It was blatant. He was a different horse. Take him back and he freaked, rearing spinning etc. Move away and i had a calm, schooled horse who would regularly score over 80% in dressage. I worked out that where the cables ran underground he went manic but when I took him away he was fine. I think he could maybe feel or hear the buzz. He would go manic near pylons. At one show i was parked under the tannoy system and had to leave early as the horse was in such a state the floor of the box was dripping wet, he had sweated so much. Within half an hour he was dry and settled. He was probably settled before that but we were on the road home. The other time I have seen an extreme reaction was with a horse (not mine) that reacted to certain surfaces. He would be fine on mine (rubber on sand) but hated one nearby that was a tarmac base and would throw himself on the floor. On another surface he could easily perform a good elementary/medium test. Think through his experiences and where he has played up. Sometimes it isn't obvious but there may be a pattern.

 

[ycbm]

it's a bit of a funny OP because you are asking if he has potential, which it sounds like he does have.... but whether you will realise that potential or not is another matter I mean that in a nice way!

I also have a weird one, not with the same physical issues but mentally rather a difficult ride and she is similar in a way. Hard to get the good stuff out of her at a show. She's training advanced at home, we've got tempis and piris in the school she is familiar with and she's begun half steps under saddle, but really is just about ready brain-wise to do an elementary out and about (so coaxing her around medium/advanced medium is a challenge! )

Am I wasting my time with her? No, because I enjoy the mental chewing gum of training her and I love watching her develop when it's just the 2 of us in the school....
....and yes, because she will always be a scaredy-cat short-ar$e welsh, who is not going to win any medals! I haven't got a better option so we will keep on going.

so yours wouldn't be my preferred ride, but then not many people would enjoy riding mine lucky for both of ours, they found their place in the world.

I feel the same way about this horse MP. I guess my question was really 'should I bother' when clearly my answer is already 'yes' from the answers I have given. So at least that has clarified things for me . I find him oddly, peculiarly, compulsive!

On his day, at home, he gives me a better feel than three very well bred (and expensive!) warmbloods did. And more satisfaction, because he's more my own creation, as it were.

Your post was helpful, Thank you.


Dozzie, what a strange horse! Very interesting reading, thank you.

 

[Micropony]

He isn't the sort of horse I would choose for myself, but I can see why he has so clearly got under your skin. He seems like a nice person who's frightened by the world. Similar attitude to my last horse (not the obvious choice for a first horse), but where yours sounds sharp mine was just thuggish, which is fortunate as I couldn't have coped with sharp!

Mine had different issues to yours, and every time he had an enforced spell off work, he came back just a little bit more normal in the head than he was before.

Each teeny little step forward felt like - and in fact was - an epic achievement, and although the glacial pace of progress would have driven lots of people to distraction, I got an enormous amount out of it, and in seeing and feeling him grow in confidence and become more comfortable in his own skin.

These oddball horses find us for a reason I think. I bet he gives you as much, if not more, satisfaction and pleasure over his lifetime than your competition horse, but you pay for it via the toll they take on your nerves along the way!