Iv just shod my horse after 2 yrs bare foot and he's a different horse

[Shilasdair]

Blood not being pumped round the foot,tissue starts to die.Shoes come off,horse hurts when walking.The hoof also hasnt had a chance to harden so it is soft.It doesnt really matter that the hoof grows from the coronary band,it is still damaging to the hoof.But with shoes on,it makes no difference how much exercise the horse does,it is still not working correctly.Also again,the jarring up the leg.

'Blood not being pumped around the foot, tissue starts to die' - what ARE you talking about? If your horse's foot tissue started to die, you'd know all about it, and pretty quickly, too.
And as for the concussion 'jarring' up the leg, two points;
1. A little concussion is what is needed to increase bone density and therefore strength.
2. Your horse will be subject to the same concussive forces whether he is worked with/without shoes on - clearly, if you understand physics.
S

 

[competitiondiva]

Surely the arguement of the frog acting as a 'circulatory pump' only holds true for road work??? Work a horse on grass, school any soft surface and the frog will come into as much contact with the floor, with shoes as without, but with shoes you offer some protection for the road work aspect? I also don't buy the arguement of longevity, I've known horses shod all their lives still being ridden in their 30's and sound!! We've got one approaching 30 on our yard at the moment and the only time she's been barefoot is when she had a foal!

I agree that correct diet will improve horn condition etc, but I think it's dangerous to pressurise people into believing all horses have the abiliity to be kept barefoot and if you can't then it's your fault as the owner. This sort of pressure will lead more naive owners to keep horses barefoot that aren't suited to it and therefore in turn cause discomfort.

If you have a horse that can remain unshod then excellent but please don't push others who don't have such horses into making the wrong choice by quoting longevity, better health and failure as an owner if you don't! Horses are individuals and are asked to different things from one owner to another, therefore different methods suit different horses and people, what works for one horse, won't work for another, so just be happy that your method works for you and your horse, certainly help others if they ask for help and information about it etc. But help and assistance is different to pressurising...........

 

[xloopylozzax]

Shilasdair, i dont post much but you are brilliant.

imagine all these shod horses with the tissue dying and hoof capsules just falling off and being left in the road!

 

[use a name]

'Blood not being pumped around the foot, tissue starts to die' - what ARE you talking about? If your horse's foot tissue started to die, you'd know all about it, and pretty quickly, too.
And as for the concussion 'jarring' up the leg, two points;
1. A little concussion is what is needed to increase bone density and therefore strength.
2. Your horse will be subject to the same concussive forces whether he is worked with/without shoes on - clearly, if you understand physics.
S

The blood isnt being pumped correctly round the hoof causing the tissue to starve to an extent.The horse will recieve concussion without shoes,its what the concussion does with shoes that is the main point.
The concussion is NOT the same as with shoes on.Yes they get some concussion on impact,as would be expected,but the frog absorbs the impact reducing jarring,and pumping blood round the foot at the same time.

 

[Shilasdair]

The blood isnt being pumped correctly round the hoof causing the tissue to starve to an extent.The horse will recieve concussion without shoes,its what the concussion does with shoes that is the main point.
The concussion is NOT the same as with shoes on.Yes they get some concussion on impact,as would be expected,but the frog absorbs the impact reducing jarring,and pumping blood round the foot at the same time.

Tissue is either starved of blood, or it isn't. There is no 'extent'. If tissue is starved of blood, it dies; in the case of the foot, if the sensitive laminae die then this is called 'laminitis'. The sensitive and insensitive laminae part company, and the pedal bone can rotate.
Laminitis is NOT caused by shoeing - how ridiculous.
Concussive forces are the same regardless of whether your horse is shod or not. If I drop a grand piano on your head from the tenth floor of a skyscraper, it hits you with the same force whether you are stood on the concrete pavement, or on a feather bed.
(You say the frog 'absorbs the impact' - where do the forces go? Up the leg, of course).
S

PS And on that note, I'm off out to buy a grand piano

 

[Mrs B]

Surely the arguement of the frog acting as a 'circulatory pump' only holds true for road work??? Work a horse on grass, school any soft surface and the frog will come into as much contact with the floor, with shoes as without, but with shoes you offer some protection for the road work aspect? I also don't buy the arguement of longevity, I've known horses shod all their lives still being ridden in their 30's and sound!! We've got one approaching 30 on our yard at the moment and the only time she's been barefoot is when she had a foal!

I agree that correct diet will improve horn condition etc, but I think it's dangerous to pressurise people into believing all horses have the abiliity to be kept barefoot and if you can't then it's your fault as the owner. This sort of pressure will lead more naive owners to keep horses barefoot that aren't suited to it and therefore in turn cause discomfort.

If you have a horse that can remain unshod then excellent but please don't push others who don't have such horses into making the wrong choice by quoting longevity, better health and failure as an owner if you don't! Horses are individuals and are asked to different things from one owner to another, therefore different methods suit different horses and people, what works for one horse, won't work for another, so just be happy that your method works for you and your horse, certainly help others if they ask for help and information about it etc. But help and assistance is different to pressurising...........

Good points, well made. As I said on the other current thread on this, all any of us can do is look at the overall picture and do what we think is best for our horses.

 

[mainpower]

Shilasdair, i dont post much but you are brilliant.

imagine all these shod horses with the tissue dying and hoof capsules just falling off and being left in the road!

Can we start an I love Shils clique?

I've learned something amazing from this thread! It totally disputes my PC/BHS training as 90% of lameness can't possibly stem from the foot, as shoeing makes the hooves go numb and they feel no pain!

 

[cptrayes]

Physiologically, this post is not accurate. To 'go numb' nerves in the feet would have to die - this happens only when a horse is accidentally or deliberately denerved
S

This is not true. Nerves in the proprioceptor sites in the foot and the joints die each time they are traumatised. A horse not shod perfectly in balance with what its body needs (as opposed to perfectly in balance with the foot only) will be experiencing proprioceptor site trauma and deaths on constant basis. When the foot is rebalanced to the body (and the easiest way to do this is to get the horse to create its foot for itself) then new proprioceptors can be developed.

 

[cptrayes]

Surely the arguement of the frog acting as a 'circulatory pump' only holds true for road work??? Work a horse on grass, school any soft surface and the frog will come into as much contact with the floor, with shoes as without, rising...........

This is not true. Look at hoofprints of shod and unshod horses in snow and firm mud and you will see a VERY large difference in the amount of pressure that the frog and sole callous on an unshod horse experience.

OP - you shod your horse. Good. Personally, I'd have restricted his grass more (I'm lucky to have good facilities to be able to do that) but if you don't want to, then shoeing is a good alternative for you.

 

[competitiondiva]

and the easiest way to do this is to get the horse to create its foot for itself) .

????????????? How does a horse create its' own foot? Except for leaving it to grow and be worn down by natural wear?? Please tell me I've read or understood that comment incorrectly????

 

[cptrayes]

????????????? How does a horse create its' own foot? Except for leaving it to grow and be worn down by natural wear?? Please tell me I've read or understood that comment incorrectly????

Exactly that, yes. Do you think horses don't know how to grow their own feet?

You take off the shoes, condition the horse to be able to work, then you match the rate of wear from work on hard surfaces very carefully with the growth rate.

The horse will grow a foot which is perfectly tuned to the idiosyncracies of the body that is above it.

This is often, in horses that are unsound in shoes, VERY different in shape from a "perfectly balanced" foot that a farrier will have created for the horse. See the photos on rockleyfarm.blogspot.com for recent examples. If we impose what we think of as "perfect balance" on a horse which has fundamental imbalance higher in its leg or body, then it can cause all sorts of problems with lameness.

My hunter is an example. When I bought him he had a front foot which was very asymmetric. When I began to school him (he was an unbroken six year old) I realised that he was extremely weak in his diagonally opposite hind, to the extent that he was the most one-sided horse that I have ever ridden. Over two years, I have managed to strengthen his hind leg, and the stronger he got about carrying my left seatbone when on the right rein, the more symmetric his foot became. The shape of it was reflecting an inability to use his back properly. The wrong thing to do in that case would have been to balance his foot when his body was not balanced, because that would have put unbalanced stresses on his joints on both legs on that diagonal and his back muscles.

 

[rosita]

Every one gets very scratchy when it comes to this bare foot debate, Why is shoeing a horse to compete so bad? Do the folk who have their horses barefoot compete at any level? Just interested, my youngsters are obviously barefoot until it's deemed necessary for shoes. However, have spent many years finding a farrier I trust as there are some bloody awful ones around. Barefoot not an option, there simply isn't enough grip when you're asking your pony to turn on a six pence.

 

[Shilasdair]

This is not true. Nerves in the proprioceptor sites in the foot and the joints die each time they are traumatised. A horse not shod perfectly in balance with what its body needs (as opposed to perfectly in balance with the foot only) will be experiencing proprioceptor site trauma and deaths on constant basis. When the foot is rebalanced to the body (and the easiest way to do this is to get the horse to create its foot for itself) then new proprioceptors can be developed.

This makes the rather sweeping assumption that shoeing traumatises the foot and permanently alters proprioception - not so.
Where you say 'a horse not SHOD perfectly in balance' causes trauma to the foot, I could equally say 'a horse not TRIMMED perfectly in balance' causes trauma to the foot.
But that's not a worry as barefoot trimmers have the same years of training as a farrier...oh wait...
All parts of the body are being constantly renewed through a process of cell death, as I hope you know, nerves, blood cells, etc.
It may be a surprise to barefooters, but both unshod and shod horses 'create their own feet'. Really.
S

 

[competitiondiva]

Exactly that, yes. Do you think horses don't know how to grow their own feet?

You take off the shoes, condition the horse to be able to work, then you match the rate of wear from work on hard surfaces very carefully with the growth rate.

The horse will grow a foot which is perfectly tuned to the idiosyncracies of the body that is above it.

This is often, in horses that are unsound in shoes, VERY different in shape from a "perfectly balanced" foot that a farrier will have created for the horse. See the photos on rocklyfarm.blogspot.com for recent examples. If we impose what we think of as "perfect balance" on a horse which has fundamental imbalance higher in its leg or body, then it can cause all sorts of problems with lamness.

In my humble opinion I think that could be very dangerous, take for instance my horse who as a result of a strain to the collateral ligaments in her coffin joint started to turn out her foot and land with the outside of the foot rolling in, now this in itself puts more strain on the ligament hindering recovery! The vet and farrier have worked very hard and I have to have her trimmed and re-shod very regularly to keep the foot 'in correct balance' to stop this happening and let the ligament recover. If I left the trait to continue it would slowly become a bigger and bigger issue. This is a referral vet and a very good farrier and I trust their opinion highly. conformational traits resulting in the shape of a 'natural' hoof can be made worse if not corrected too. But as I say everyone has their own opinion and what works for you is fab but it won't work for all..... good luck with your way....

 

[cptrayes]

Every one gets very scratchy when it comes to this bare foot debate, Why is shoeing a horse to compete so bad? Do the folk who have their horses barefoot compete at any level?

Like quite a few people, I hunt every weekend on a barefoot horse. Nic Barker has a whole string of barefoot hunters. I have competed affiliated eventing to novice (over 4ft max height with landings generally made of stone chippings) on five different horses. I am aware of several other affiliated eventers, one at Intermediate and there was one Advanced horse who could not be kept sound in shoes so they ran it without. There are also plenty of long distance horses barefoot. Dressage doesn't count for me , but there are hundreds doing dressage.

 

[cptrayes]

In my humble opinion I think that could be very dangerous, take for instance my horse who as a result of a strain to the collateral ligaments in her coffin joint started to turn out her foot and land with the outside of the foot rolling in, now this in itself puts more strain on the ligament hindering recovery! The vet and farrier have worked very hard and I have to have her trimmed and re-shod very regularly to keep the foot 'in correct balance' to stop this happening and let the ligament recover. If I left the trait to continue it would slowly become a bigger and bigger issue. This is a referral vet and a very good farrier and I trust their opinion highly. conformational traits resulting in the shape of a 'natural' hoof can be made worse if not corrected too. But as I say everyone has their own opinion and what works for you is fab but it won't work for all..... good luck with your way....

look at Rockleyfarm.co.uk

Average length of time to return a horse with collateral ligament damage which has already been failed by veterinary and farriery treatment is a few months.

Horses know how to grow the foot they need. Humans intervene and stop them.

 

[cptrayes]

This makes the rather sweeping assumption that shoeing traumatises the foot and permanently alters proprioception - not so.

S

In some horses, it does.



One of the big problems with arguments on this forum is that people read statements that mean "some" and take them to mean "all" or even "your". Can we stop this by any chance?
"Some horses are damaged by shoes" does not mean "all horses are damaged by shoes" and far less "your horse is damaged by shoes".

Shils you are a particular specialist at this. Please, for the sake of a sensible discussion, can you stop?

 

[Izzwizz]

My horse had a tendon injury and had to be referred to a specialist vet. She needed remedial shoeing to help her and the vet is extremely experienced in his field, as is my Farrier. Im happy to say shes sound and has been now for the last year or so. Hers was a bad tear to the DDFT and had she not had the eggbar support, she wouldnt be as good as she is today. She would not be able to cope without shoes and I wouldnt even dream of putting her through any more trauma. Shes a very happy girl. It doesnt matter how much science the Barefooters blind us with, I will always follow the sound advice of my Vet and Farrier.

Whats good for one horse doesnt suit another - will always be the case!!

 

[*hic*]

I have to say that it's way you write that causes this problem!

A horse not shod perfectly in balance with what its body needs (as opposed to perfectly in balance with the foot only) will be experiencing proprioceptor site trauma and deaths on constant basis. When the foot is rebalanced to the body (and the easiest way to do this is to get the horse to create its foot for itself) then new proprioceptors can be developed.

That means ALL horses. I suspect that you meant to say was

A horse not shod perfectly in balance with what its body needs (as opposed to perfectly in balance with the foot only) may or could be experiencing proprioceptor site trauma and deaths on constant basis. When the foot is rebalanced to the body (and the easiest way to do this is to get the horse to create its foot for itself) then new proprioceptors can be developed.

 

[cptrayes]

It may be a surprise to barefooters, but both unshod and shod horses 'create their own feet'. Really.
S

No they don't. Shod horses create the top of the foot (often at a radically different angle to the lower part of the foot). They are unable to wear the base of the foot and therefore as soon as the shoe is fixed, the hoof is beginning to grow out of balance. By the end of 4, 6 or more weeks, the foot is no longer in the "perfect" balance that the farrier gave it. In no way can I see that this constitutes a horse "create" (meaning to me "forming" not just "growing") its own foot.

 

[Shilasdair]

In some horses, it does.



One of the big problems with arguments on this forum is that people read statements that mean "some" and take them to mean "all" or even "your". Can we stop this by any chance?
"Some horses are damaged by shoes" does not mean "all horses are damaged by shoes" and far less "your horse is damaged by shoes".

Shils you are a particular specialist at this. Please, for the sake of a sensible discussion, can you stop?

I have a better idea.
When I mean 'some horses', then that's exactly what I write. Perhaps you could write with more clarity to avoid ambiguity? That way no one can suspect you are making false claims regarding the benefits of keeping horses unshod, and challenge you to support such claims with scientific (not anecdotal) evidence.
I like science - and I like truth.
And unlike some advocates of barefoot, I don't have any vested interests in promoting either shod or unshod horse management .
S

 

[cptrayes]

I have to say that it's way you write that causes this problem! That means ALL horses. I suspect that you meant to say was

I meant what I wrote in that post.

I suffer from proprioceptor site destruction myself because of a genetic abnormality in my achilles tendons. From what I know of human proprioceptor site destruction and what I have seen happens when you take a horse out of shoes (the sequence of soundness and lameness) I am absolutely convinced that all horses shod for years with a balance which is not suitable for the asymmetries of the body above it will experience proprioceptor site destruction. Of course, only a proportion of horses are shod this way and even of the ones that are, the proprioceptor site destruction will not be obvious, the horse may just trip or stumble now and again when it would not have done with the receptors in place. It does not usually cause actual lameness, but a bad trip or twist might one day do just that.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Exactly that, yes. Do you think horses don't know how to grow their own feet? .....................................................................

The horse will grow a foot which is perfectly tuned to the idiosyncracies of the body that is above it.

In that case foals would not need trimming to rectify conformation deviations.

This makes the rather sweeping assumption that shoeing traumatises the foot and permanently alters proprioception - not so.
Where you say 'a horse not SHOD perfectly in balance' causes trauma to the foot, I could equally say 'a horse not TRIMMED perfectly in balance' causes trauma to the foot.
But that's not a worry as barefoot trimmers have the same years of training as a farrier...oh wait...
All parts of the body are being constantly renewed through a process of cell death, as I hope you know, nerves, blood cells, etc.
It may be a surprise to barefooters, but both unshod and shod horses 'create their own feet'. Really.
S

Thank goodness for commonsense. Good posts.

 

[rosita]

Do any of the international horses go bare foot? Just nosy...and lazy...could look it up but easier to ask here!!

 

[SusieT]

Blood not being pumped round the foot,tissue starts to die.Shoes come off,horse hurts when walking.The hoof also hasnt had a chance to harden so it is soft.It doesnt really matter that the hoof grows from the coronary band,it is still damaging to the hoof.But with shoes on,it makes no difference how much exercise the horse does,it is still not working correctly.Also again,the jarring up the leg.

You realise that if tissue necrosis was going on in the hoof, that the horse would show acute pain, and infection and left untreated infection would enter the blood stream causing septic shock? Yes? I do not see all shod horses in septic shock..

 

[cptrayes]

In that case foals would not need trimming to rectify conformation deviations.

Thank goodness for commonsense. Good posts.

You answer your own question and prove my point. We trim foals to take advantage of the fact that they have soft bones and we can straighten one which has been bent in the womb or genetically created bent. And of course that's a great thing to be able to do.

But if you put a straight foot on an adult bent horse, you're asking for trouble, because, just as in the foal, the foot will force changes of balance in the rest of the horse, with a mature skeleton which is unable to adapt to cope with them. The muscles and/or joints must make the adaptation instead.

 

[cptrayes]

Do any of the international horses go bare foot? Just nosy...and lazy...could look it up but easier to ask here!!

Only long distance as far as I know, Rosita. At top level, winning is what counts. Dressage horses are often shod to modify their gait to make it as much as possible what the judge wants to see. Eventers need studs at that level if they are going all out to win, and studs need shoes. Showjumpers need studs on grass and having been shod for grass at lower levels you wouldn't take a top class horse who is performing well through a transition to shoeless.

Anyone know any International level barefooters??

 

[SusieT]

cptrayes- you are convinced of a lot but rarely (if ever) manage to back it up with anything other than anecdotal (and on a forum, that can mean totally made up..) evidence.
Rockley Farm is interesting but is not neccessarily getting horses 100% sound, so yes they are trying but without shod horses to comare to, you could just as easily say its the extra care and attentino that is helping them recover.
Which brings me to an important point0 All this about barefoot being better only if you have the time and dedication, I would be very interested in a study that compared shod and unshod horses under IDENTICAL regimes, rather than just barefoot horses under the 'barefoot' regime, as only then can you see if it is shoes or regime causing changes.

 

[0ldmare]

You answer your own question and prove my point. We trim foals to take advantage of the fact that they have soft bones and we can straighten one which has been bent in the womb or genetically created bent. And of course that's a great thing to be able to do.

But if you put a straight foot on an adult bent horse, you're asking for trouble, because, just as in the foal, the foot will force changes of balance in the rest of the horse, with a mature skeleton which is unable to adapt to cope with them.

You are making the assumption that a good farrier won't take into account the limb conformation when shoeing a horse. Of course they do! My grey has a slightly turned near side foot, the farrier doesn't try to straighten it, he trims and shoes taking this into account. It isn't just Barefoot trimmers who assess and deal accordingly.

 

[cptrayes]

You realise that if tissue necrosis was going on in the hoof, that the horse would show acute pain, and infection and left untreated infection would enter the blood stream causing septic shock? Yes? I do not see all shod horses in septic shock..

Most foot abcesses are contained inside the foot and do not enter the bloodstream. If left, they generally pop at the heel or coronet and resolve with few issues. We put it down to "gravel" getting in from outside, but who knows what dead stuff inside the foot an abscess could have started from? Sceptic shock from a foot abscess is rare.

It is my understanding also that necrosis alone does not necessarily cause a problem. If there is no infectious agent present, necrotic tissue can be benign and reabsorbed into the body. Can anyone medically trained confirm or correct that?