I've been thinking.....,

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Alec Swan

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It's the Pointer-Foxhound thread, and the posts of one particular person, which has set me to thinking.

Now then, stick with me to the end, and tell me whether you agree, or not;

All so often we consider certain breeds of dogs as household pets. The question is, "Are they, or can they be"? If those dogs which are primarily for serving man in a work capacity, are they worth the effort when they're denied that drug?

Let's consider some of the breeds;

English Pointers. A work dog. A dog bred for and at home on the moor. The work variety are never taught to walk to heal, on or off the lead.

The Collie or Sheepdog. A work dog. A dog which whilst designed and bred to work for man, needs an alternative stimulation if it's to be denied livestock.

The GSD and their "kind". A work dog, or at least it was. Given the right home environment and the right and balanced relationship, can be as good a company as any could want. Shut in, unsocialised and ignored, they become "can" become a liability.

The Gundog breeds. Work dogs, but probably more accepting of domesticity, than some (all accept Cockers ;)).

The Bull breeds. No longer kept for work, thankfully, but in the wrong hands, dangerous liabilities. In the right hands, a delight.

Terriers (Proper ones!), I wont go there. They're nuts, all of them! :D

The Huskies, and their derivatives. There's a lad in our village who had/has one, I haven't seen it for a while and think that it's reached a sticky end. When he first got it, I asked him "Have you any idea what you've taken on"? He looked vacant and said that his mate had one. It was a quite striking animal to look at.

Some of the Sight Hounds, and the list goes on. Feel free to add your own! :D

My point and my question is, when we take on those dogs which have a purpose within their breeding, and we don't allow them that "Purpose", are we always prepared to find another stimuli for them? In the case of Pointers, I'm not sure what that could be, but perhaps others will know.

I wouldn't keep a sheepdog, if I didn't keep sheep.

So, what do you think? If we don't keep dogs which arrived by a specific "use-route", what do we keep? Are we prepared to consider that the dog which by its breeding should be amenable to training, will still be amenable, spending its life lying on its bed, and if you consider that every dog and every person in life needs purpose, how do you deal with it? I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Alec.
 
I have a greyhound. He's bred to run and he does get a chance to every morning. He gets to chase balls/toys rather than rabbits. He gets to use his very limited supply of brain cells to do simple commands (sit, lie down, paw etc)
Honestly, I think he would love to do lure coursing etc but can't risk it as he shares the house with a cat, but he gets the oppertunity to do similar things still :)

He doesn't like to think he's a working dog either, he's quite happy to be a demanding lazy little prince :rolleyes:
 
Alec Swan said:
The Huskies, and their derivatives. There's a lad in our village who had/has one, I haven't seen it for a while and think that it's reached a sticky end. When he first got it, I asked him "Have you any idea what you've taken on"? He looked vacant and said that his mate had one. It was a quite striking animal to look at.
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Completely agree with this. We have a Husky who we go because her previous owner worked long hours and therefore couldn't devote the time she needed. We run a livery yard and live on site so she is out for several hours a day running free. When the snow came we put her to use and attached the sledge to her harness and she pulled the water up the field for the horses....she loved it! She lives outside in a kennel as she gets too hot with the fire on inside. Even though she is out nearly all day roaming round the yard and the fields she still isn't tired, she isn't the most obedient in the world and will only come back to you on her terms :rolleyes: I dread to think how people who have them as house dogs and take them for walks can get rid of all this energy! I'm interested on doing a bit of sled dog stuff with her, found the sledge in the snow was so much fun! She is gutted the snow has gone now :D
 
Can't talk about English Pointers, but I keep my GSP happy by lots of training and play. He loves it when the children play hide and seek with him (as long as they have his ball he will find them!), and I do agility with him. As long as he has to use his brain he wants to please.

He would be rubbish in a working home! He is terrified of feathers!!! When he touches one he jumps like its given him an electric shock!! He flushed a pheasant once by accident and totally wet himself and came flying back to me! Total pansy!
 
Alec Swan said:
Terriers (Proper ones!), I wont go there. They're nuts, all of them! :D

My point and my question is, when we take on those dogs which have a purpose within their breeding, and we don't allow them that "Purpose", are we always prepared to find another stimuli for them?

Alec.
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I agree with the terriers statement FULLY :D

I think some people are very prepared to stimulate their dogs and others not. We have an owner of 2 huskies in the village and she is always out with them - she had one previous to these 2 so knew exactly what she was taking on and she welcomes the exercise. I have had conversations with her about 'mushing' them - she has a bike with running boards, but needs to find the space and help to get started.

We had another family in the village who had a mastiff in a small family house. Sadly they had a terrible incident where the dog after the birth of the second child one day just lost the plot and attacked the family, hospitalising the husband. The wife had to stab the dog to stop it tearing him apart. I think this dog needed a different environment and I blame that for the attack.

I have a thug patterdale - a secondhand dog as the owners no longer wanted him. I probably don't give him the perfect life, but he is a loyal companion accompanying me extremely willingly to do the horses both ends of the day and he runs his legs off. I cannot socialise him with any dogs other than my own, as he is such a yob.
 
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Alec, was if me you were refering to in the Foxhound-Pointer thread?

The main reason I have Pointers is because I love the look of them, especially when they are galloping. When they are in "working mode" I can hardly describe the feelings it gives me to watch them, to go from flat out gallop to still as a statue in the blink of an eye is amazing. I've watched my oldest Pointer hold a bird on point for over 5 mins, it truly was a sight to behold!

My Pointers don't walk to heel, they walk in front of my, sometimes pulling a bit!! I know they wouldn't be happy if they only go lead walks, we are very lucky where we live that within 2 mins walk of our house they can be off lead in a safe environment. If they didn't get this exercise I'm sure they wouldn't make such good house dogs. As it is they get pretty much 2 hours of galloping every day and spend most of the rest of the day happy in the house.

Two of my Pointers have field trialled in the past, one is going to be doing so again this year.

Unfortunately we don't live near a grouse moor, but I think they all seem more than happy with their day to day life.

I think, as long as you are aware of the type of dog/ and what it has been bred to do (ie, in the case of the Pointer, work a long way away from the handler and cover the ground at speed to find birds) that you are taking on then you should be able to have a good relationship with them.

ps, my Pointers all look beautiful when dressed up as princesses by my daughter!!!;);) Oh the shame!
 
I have always maintained that you should know what your dog was for originally, even if that's not what it is for now. Any breed of dog was created for some purpose, whether that was hunting, guarding, tracking, or keeping people's feet warm before double glazing and central heating! Knowing this allows you to train in a way that your dog will be amenable to - for example, knowing that a spaniel was bred to use its nose means you can turn this to your advantage by teaching it to hunt for toys or treats for example, or as I am currently teaching Henry, my keys! He does the real thing too, but as far as he is concerned looking for a bunch of keys is also pretty damned good - it keeps him out of my hair, and might come in very useful some day.
 
If Rottie crosses were bred and designed to be a couch potato then mine certainly has found the right home, he loves being on there and having a good snore :rolleyes:

He does get to spend lots of energy running at the stables and on off lead walks too :)
 
I think a majority of the Bull breeds have adapted really rather well to a life on the sofa!!! Obviously they do need exercise, and some do need something to "do" but on the whole "snuggle monster" suits as a job title.
 
galaxy said:
He would be rubbish in a working home! He is terrified of feathers!!! When he touches one he jumps like its given him an electric shock!! He flushed a pheasant once by accident and totally wet himself and came flying back to me! Total pansy!
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I have an English Springer Spaniel at home with my parents...he is terrified of load noises.....some gun dog he would be!! :rolleyes: :D
 
I can only go on springers as I'm on my 2nd, 3rd and 4th. Of the three, only one needs to work as a gun dog, the other two are happy to be purely pets. I think it depends entirely on the temperament. My springer from working stock is the most laid back, happy little boy who wants to do no more than smell everythign and wee everywhere :rolleyes: Zak, pet bred but god knows what in his ancestry, MUST work or is incredibly naughty.
 
I have two 'pet' Siberian huskies - they live in the house, for want of enough land to build a decent kennel and run, sleep on the sofas and go for walks same as any other pet dog.

Would I ever recommend them as a pet? Not a chance. Catering for their needs has changed my life, permanently affected my availability for work (couldn't leave them 9-5, lucky enough to have a full time job at the moment but it involves nights and weekends to make up the hours, a 'normal' job would be impossible) and means that my only hobbies are now all dog related.

Weekends off work are for sled dog rallies, canicross and agility competitions, not for socialising or even being around my OH. :o

For me this hasn't been a bad thing; it's given me purpose, goals and a hell of a lot of exercise. I find working with them very rewarding. I was rewarded with a clear round at agility (competition, not just training) from one of them at the weekend and could have burst with pride.

So yes, to answer your question, my 'pet' dogs are happy with the alternatives I have provided them with - pulling a rig or bike twice a week for around 5k at a time and the odd competition doing the same, agility for the smarter of the two to wear out her brain if not her body and otherwise a great deal of walking on long leads or on my own land. It's not pulling a sled across the Siberian wastes but it's not a bad life and they are happy.
 
We have a young sheepdog bitch. She was rescued when found tied to a trailer after her owner didn't remember he owned her anymore. She was skin and bone, full of fleas and worms and ticks. Now my family aren't farmers, but they agreed to take her in after we rescued her. My OH and i don't have the time or funds for 2 dogs you see.
She doesn't herd sheep, but she is too mentally damaged to have a life as a working dog. Its clear shes been beaten, shes frightened of men and bolts when off lead. But she is fed, warm, has toys and a bed and shes happy regardless of whether or not she has a job. That and she will only listen to my sister, nobody else. She wont eat if my sister goes away and waits in the windowsil for her until she returns from college.
It may not be a working life, but its a happy life and a damn site better than her old one.
 
Toast,

what an interesting post. The rescue has obviously bonded with your sister. Gratifying though such bonding can be, it can also be a PITA. That level of dependence, can be trying!

Just a thought; there are plenty of sheep dog people in Lancashire, why not, on a one to one basis, have your sister, and a GOOD shepherd, take the wee thing to a few sheep. Not loads, half a dozen "well dogged" lambs should do. The Shepherd, once your bitch has settled, would probably have your sis chase the sheep, and encourage her charge to join in.

Try it, however she may be now, you may well be surprised! It's a straight road which never turns, and the odd bag of nerves has managed to learn. ;)

Alec.
 
I didn't read Alec's post as a criticism of those of us who choose a breed which was created to have a specific purpose, more on the lines of questioning people who choose a dog based on looks and/or perception rather than thinking what the dog would be happy doing. I have staffords so bull breeds/terriers. Forget the bad press and media I have chosen a very very active and bright breed. Staffords are not a dog to sit in a corner and become incredibly attached to their people. They also need a minimum of a good hour off lead a day to keep them sane. Bearing that in mind, I feel I meet my dogs needs and they are happy, although sometimes feel that in an ideal world they would prefer more humans around.

I suppose a good example would be someone who went out and bought a working cocker and expected it to be a lap dog with little exercise needs! I love these type of dogs but they need a LOT of work!!
 
Unless you go for a toy breed, then all breeds have been developed for a working purpose, haven't they? In fact so have the toy breeds - they've been bred to be pets and lapdogs.

So if you 'just' want a pet you could be restricted to one group only, or look for a true mongrel (rather than a designer cross breed - don't get me started!). But then you'd need to go for a rescue because it isn't ethically right to encourage the breeding of mongrels really, and then you run the risk of inheriting a load of psychological baggage from neglect or mistreatment in the past. (I know rescue dogs are often wonderful - just making a point here).

Or you could accept that while your chosen breed was originally bred to do a specific job, that as long as you provide it with enough exercise and stimulation of a similar kind then it should be happy.

You don't see many Dalmatians running next to stage coaches anymore, and you don't get many Dachshunds hunting badgers, but it doesn't mean that they can't live with people who understand how to look after them surely?

I think that although some breeds are known to be harder to train and live with than others and are better suited to more specialist owners, that any dog given the correct diet and exercise regime should be OK. Breeders just need to be really responsible when selling their pups and make sure that the new owners know exactly what they are letting themselves in for.

I would never recommend a Pointer to an inexperienced owner without explaining the huge distances that they cover as soon as you let them off the lead and their sheer ability to gallop - but my darling girl who I lost last week was still an absolute treasure and gave us years of amusement and happiness. Hopefully my total b*****d of a Lakeland terrier will do the same.
 
lexiedhb said:
I think a majority of the Bull breeds have adapted really rather well to a life on the sofa!!! Obviously they do need exercise, and some do need something to "do" but on the whole "snuggle monster" suits as a job title.
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Totally agree with this, I am house sitting 2 staffies at the moment, I've never known such affectionate, loving dogs in my life!
 
I suppose you could argue that it is being a responsible dog owner. It could also boil down to ‘nature or nurture’

If you take on breed/type of dog with very specific characteristics for a 'job' that you don't need it to do, then yes, you should find an alternative if that’s what the dog needs.

Breed characteristics (or what I perceive them to be), were a big factor before getting my first dog. I am essentially quite lazy, so I knew I wouldn’t want a dog needing hours of walking or stimulation to provide an outlet for a happy and well-behaved dog.

Eventually got a whippet lurcher. My only reservation was my lack of dog training knowledge for breed specific things like recall. So I went to puppy training, lurked on AAD a lot, and applied principles acquired from horsey training. I had to give his recall significant levels of attention but it paid off.

Would it have been easier to get a less prey-driven dog? Of course. But what he adores is a good walk with ball-onna-rope, so he gets plenty of full speed gallops. I’ve never tried to stop him chasing bunnies, but he will pretty much come back after less than a minute.

So I have a pretty content sofa-surfer who comes back when called, never steals food and has no idea he should be out lamping for rabbits.

Still jumps up like a git when excited- never been able to stop that ;)
 
I think some breeds seem to almost need to work to be happy & fulfilled - however, although not necesarily doing what they were bred for, & of course there are always individual dogs who won't conform the the norm. Generally speaking however, IMO there are breeds which are better having a job to do (eg. sibes, mals, collies & even GSP's).

When i got my first GSP, i knew she needed a job to do - i was considering agility before that all changed when i literally stumbled upon mushing when i met a man (now a very good friend) training his dogs in a local forest. My dogs love to work, it's the highlight if their week, but in saying that (thinking out loud here & probably contradicting myself totally) i'm sure they'd be equally as a happy so long as they got a good free run every day (as they do on the days they are not working). Would it be more correct to say that most working-type dogs just need to be kept active, as opposed to having a job?
 
Oh... another thought! Even if you don't do with your dog what it is bred to do, i think that bearing in mind what it was bred to do during training, if that makes sense!

Blackcob, although your sibes may live with you & are pets, i'd still consider that they "work" considering your hobby.
 
People who want a dog who looks like a GSD, but acts like a geriatric Labrador, and people who breed for that market, have done untold damage to the breed.
GSDs are MEANT to want to work, they are MEANT to have an occupation and they are MEANT to put it up to you.
Police forces and the military are increasingly breeding their own in house and/or importing from Europe, and/or going for Belgian Malinois and Dutch Herders instead, because the dog that WAS the jack of all trades, the ideal utility dog, is being bred out into work, show, pet. Back in the 70s and 80s, they could be all three. They are out there, but they are much fewer than they used to be.

I have a working bred GSD. If he didn't get work, and by work I mean lots of physical and mental stimulation, he would eat my house.
If I ever move him on, he would never ever go to a low-energy pet home.
I dread working bred GSDs (the big grey Czech dogs are very striking to look at) or Malinois (they're FAST and brilliant to watch) being the next dog du jour, because most people just wouldn't be able to cope.

It was me that said people need to think about purpose on the other thread initially, because I meet people with Kerry Blue terriers wondering why their dog is so scrappy, I meet people with huskies wondering why they run away, I meet people with dobermans wondering why they won't let anyone go near their kids. It's not rocket science, to me, anyway.
 
I have 6 high energy border collies (sheepdogs:cool:) all ISDS lines; 2 from hard, independent 'hill dog' lines and the other 4 by international trials champions... and I dont own a single sheep :eek:
 
Personally I think the danger of buying one of the working breeds is that your life changes to fit their need sometimes without you even realising its happening. Mine was centre of town, nice heeled shoes, half decent clothes, a regular hair cut and make up :eek: Wine bars & restaurants were my haunts with lots of girlie nights out and holidays in the sun.

Was brought a dog as a birthday present and within a year I'd moved house, joined a dog club, thrown myself into training really because the dogs was driving me and my neighbours nuts and I hate being defeated in a challenge, brought a pair of wellies, a 4x4, enough books to fill my spare room, a pile of training gear from whistles, dummies to launchers and the final sacrifice all for my dog I learnt to shoot!:rolleyes::rolleyes: Most of my friends think I'm nuts and my circle has changed dramatically. Some totally disowned me :(:(

Ten years later I'm not sure I own any make up:o, or heels:o:o, rarely get my hair cut :eek:, live and die in a decent pair of boots, have added new career qualifications which require a decent hand cream thanks to an outdoor life, I can toot a whole tune that brings the dogs in with or without whistle :D:p

I do sometimes wonder where I would be if I had not been gifted my dog... :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Star_Chaser said:
Personally I think the danger of buying one of the working breeds is that your life changes to fit their need sometimes without you even realising its happening. Mine was centre of town, nice heeled shoes, half decent clothes, a regular hair cut and make up :eek: Wine bars & restaurants were my haunts with lots of girlie nights out and holidays in the sun.

Was brought a dog as a birthday present and within a year I'd moved house, joined a dog club, thrown myself into training really because the dogs was driving me and my neighbours nuts and I hate being defeated in a challenge, brought a pair of wellies, a 4x4, enough books to fill my spare room, a pile of training gear from whistles, dummies to launchers and the final sacrifice all for my dog I learnt to shoot!:rolleyes::rolleyes: Most of my friends think I'm nuts and my circle has changed dramatically. Some totally disowned me :(:(

Ten years later I'm not sure I own any make up:o, or heels:o:o, rarely get my hair cut :eek:, live and die in a decent pair of boots, have added new career qualifications which require a decent hand cream thanks to an outdoor life, I can toot a whole tune that brings the dogs in with or without whistle :D:p

I do sometimes wonder where I would be if I had not been gifted my dog... :rolleyes::rolleyes:
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living a life not half as fulfilled? :cool:
 
I have whippets n they are certainly born n bred to run
I race n course mine altho ones retired
My black bitch is from coursing n working lines and she has such high prey drive , yes she keeps down the rat n bunny population while im out n about
I think u certainly gotta think what breed who choose in a dog n how u simulate it n their requirements
I find lots of ppl hav boarder collies as pets , n they need so much exercise n mental stimulation n then owners wonder why they hav behaviour problems

Interesting post
 
It's interesting, isn't it?

FWIW over the last 20 years I've had 3 JRTs and a rottie - all house dogs and all but the rott were rescues.

JRT 1 was rescued from a BYB yard at about 2 years old. She had 3 litters that I knew of and possibly another litter prior. I got her because she was in an appalling state, skin and bone plus close to her own body weight in parasites and the toerags that owned her were about to knock her over the head as the RSPCA were sniffing around. FGS she was rearing a litter on cheapy baked beans and wheatabix! My vet was concerned that she wouldn't last the night. However, she was a 'proper' terrier who got a rabbit a day for most of her life, was welcome everywhere on rodent reduction duties and no squirrel was safe within a mile of her but she was house trained in 24 hours and became a 'bed' dog in a similar amount of time - I had let her sleep in the bedroom as she was so ill and before I knew it she was on the bed ;) She lived happily with my cats but strange cats were fair game. In her younger days, not enough exercise left you with a dog that seemed to be on speed indoors. Quite typical of the breed really.

The next JRT I got was far too young, only 5 weeks old from similar types as above (This is how a big gob gets you into trouble. You get told to take the animal you are having a go at them about...) She was anything but typical of the breed, Thick, really, really thick. A year to housetrain because she didn't like cold, rain, snow and if it was hot she didn't like that either. Recall took about 2 years to establish. She was scared of rabbits, they were bigger than her. Mice were of no interest, they could walk through her paws. An absolute wimp, you should have heard the screams if she trod on a thorn. She never learnt from any of her many disasters - she'd do the same thing again and again then shriek loudly and await rescue. The only dog I've ever known to ask to be put back on lead. Her saving grace was that she was so sweet, very loving and incredibly cute - people used to ask how old the puppy was when she was in her teens :D I think she thought she was a cat - she had the attitude that she should be carried, fussed and looked after 24/7. The only dog like thing about her was her absolute love of rolling in the stinkiest stuff she could find.I always thought that she'd have loved to have been a handbag dog. Exercise not requested or required unless the heavens were in alignment and the temperature was balmy.

JRT 3 (present dog) is a gobby 10 year old that I got when he was 8. Dog aggressive through nerves as a terrier he feels that he should kill them before they kill him. So apparently 'game'? No, not really - little or no chase instinct, cat safe even with visiting cats and ignores rabbits, squirrels and chickens. Large stock get furiously barked at but only from a very (very) safe distance. As a house dog he is fantastic, very cuddly, absolutely spotless indoors (he even goes outside to be sick!!! That's a first in my experience) not at all destructive and wonderful with people especially children. Mind you, he is very persistent and excellent at training people to do things his way. So, not really what most people expect of a JRT.

Rottweiler - had him from 9 weeks from a respectable (health tested dogs, breeding for temperament etc) breeder. Very bright dog but at times hid it well under his goonishness. A doddle to train but oh my, the teenage months were very testing :eek:. A dog with a big sense of humour but you could also clearly see the guardian side of the breed come out as he got to about 2 yo - until then he'd been every bodies friend but as he matured he became more stand offish until he sussed a stranger out. He was a natural born thug - never went round anything if he could go through it and wasn't adverse to pushing people around if he was let. He was very good with people but you had to watch him with small children - not because he was aggressive but because he could flatten them! The kind of dog who would let people into the house but then stop them leaving. Without any specific guard training he figured out to that he should stay between me and anybody behaving aggressively. On another occasion, at a BBQ he wouldn't let a friend of mines husband near their daughter - he didn't know the dad so that was that. I would say that he was absolutely typical of the breed but also a perfect pet/house dog with just a bit of work, nothing out of the ordinary TBF.

I grew up with collies, terrier and a GSP so maybe I'm just used to nutty breeds? :D
 
eatmyshorts said:
Blackcob, although your sibes may live with you & are pets, i'd still consider that they "work" considering your hobby.
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I've often pondered "working" as a title - IMO they are not working dogs because they don't have to pull a sled to justify their existence to me, if either of them never wanted to pull again I wouldn't be seeking to replace them with dogs that could. But they do a lot more exercise than nearly all pet dogs I know. So, erm. :confused:

CC there was a Belgian shep lady at the agility show we went to at the weekend, she had a van full of tervs of varying ages and one recently acquired teenage mali (two of his littermates are still at a nearby rescue, I had to cover my ears and pretend she hadn't told me that :o) and the mali was twice as quick as his floofy cousins and sooo sharp. He was there for socialisation so both Dax and I got to have lots of mali cuddles. :o I want one very badly, or a big 'ard grey bitey fing. I hope and pray with you that they don't become the next big thing.
 
I've got one on the floor doing a dead spider impression and one on my feet impersonating a fluffy doughnut. Any whining this evening will merely be Ricoh communicating his need for a pee. :p
 
I have my first dog, a Rottweiler, she is now 11 months old and has changed my life! I 'rescued' her from some family at 10 weeks old. She is out of an English show bitch and by a European working dog. Rottweilers were originally herding dogs.
I thought horses were hard work. I now have found myself having no social life and having nothing to do with horses. I have worked so so hard with my dog and I am so proud of her! In my eyes she is the perfect pet and a pleasure to be around. I truly believe you get what you put in.
My dog has a job, she is in training for her Bh. She is allowed to be a dog and allowed to have friends (only nice ones). She is fed good quality food (raw). She has a crate in the house and always has access to her own space. She has ample excersise In return I expect that she has manners, does not charge around the house (my son in only 1) she does not steal or get on the furniture and she goes to the toilet outside :)
I think she has a pretty good deal. She knows where she stands with me and I am always clear and consistent (i try anyway) and this has allowed us to enjoy being in each others space and cuddle for hours. She is the best pet and I know she respects me and will do (or try and do) anything I ask.
I see no reason why working dogs can't be pets aslong as people put the time and effort into understanding what their dog needs.
I knew nothing about dogs when I got her (I still don't know much) but I know I will do whatever it takes to make sure she is happy and we are understanding each other.
If you don't want to put time into your dog and you don't try and understand them and you don't like getting wet and muddy- get a cat!!! :)
 
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