I've had a breakthrough! But now what?

[HaffiesRock]

I have a new gypsy cob mare who I got 2 months ago. She loves to hack and is very safe, but to school she is very unbalanced, grabs the bit and leans very hard, rushes around in trot.

I'm having lessons on her and we are slow to make progress. My instructor told me to lunge her with a rider with no reins so she has to balance herself. She also said to try riding her in a flash (As she currently has no noseband and opens her mouth really wide to evade the bit) And finally to move her reins onto the middle ring of her gag for a bit more control.

Now, I like natural horsemanship so was a bit dubious of puttung all this on her head, but my instructor assured me its just temporary until she relaxes, becomes more balanced and listened more.

So last night, I got my very balanced. light friend up on her nack and lunged her in walk and trot and a little bit of canter and she went great. Feeling inspired I rode her firsth thing today in a flash and with her reins on the middl egag ring and she went like a dream! Head low, steady, balanced trot, no leaning or pulling! She was amazing! So cant wait for my next lesson to show my instructor!

My question is though, what now? I will continue with the lungeing as its doing her good and building her fitness. But what about the gag and flash? Keep them for a while then take them away? Or just leave them on?

Thanks

 

[PaddyMonty]

Probably not what you want to hear but my next step would be finding a different instructor. Sticking rein on lower hole in gag and strapping mouth shut will simply mask the issue making the horse feel better without actually addressing the real problems.

 

[ISHmad]

Without meaning to be negative JunoXV said just what I was going to say. There is a reason that your mare is evading the bit. Whether teeth, the wrong bit, too thick or something else. Sorry but I really think you do need to look into this a lot more and get an opinion from another instructor. Clamping her mouth shut is masking the problem, not dealing with it.

 

[Kat]

I agree, I don't think a dutch gag bit is the answer for schooling either. It can have a place for jumping and fast work, but not for training a green horse on the flat.

Also if your horse is evading the bit by opening his mouth it is generally better to get to the bottom of why rather than putting a flash on. There isn't always a reason, but if a horse genuinely needs a different noseband I think a drop is a better solution than a flash (unless you use a standing martingale).

I would try a lesson with someone else, maybe someone with an interest in classical dressage.....

I would ask their advice about a suitable bit, but I would aim to do any flat schooling with a green horse in a snaffle preferably one that is dressage legal. I'd be inclined to take the flash off, get the dentist, and ask the dentist for advice on bitting. They have a good impression of the horse's mouth conformation and will be able to advise whether you should look for a thick or thin bit or a shaped one or whatever. But I would be basically looking for a double jointed snaffle, either lozenge or french link, either eggbut or loose ring.

I would then have lessons on the flat in the snaffle and cavesson.

It would probably also be worth getting your saddle and the horse's back checked as they could also be responsible for the rushing about and evasions.

I would want to get the horse to drop onto a nice soft contact by riding it through from behind rather than winching its head in. So using transitions and changes of bend with lots of half halts to balance the horse and get it using its quarters.

 

[Kat]

Post your geographic area and someone might be able to recommend an instructor who would have an approach that you are more comfortable with. There might even be someone on here that is near to you.

 

[canteron]

Completely agree with finding new instructor.

Cobs tend to be very on their forehand and so you need to find an instructor who understands - and can explain to you, how to get the horse working 'uphill'. This is quite a long (but enjoyable) journey, but so so worth it. A cob who is lovely natured and understands how to move is a very special person.

So, firstly find an instructor. Also would recommend a book that has recently been published called 'cobs can'. If you do a search on here it comes up with pretty good reviews. It does take a little bit of energy to read it, but if you study the pictures, you can see the difference when a cob is working 'uphill'. Also, find lots of pictures of Lynn Russell, she is a top show producer for a reason, all her 'big' horses end up really light and off their forehand.

Your horse sounds so lovely and it would be sad to spoil her with harsh bits and weird gadgets.

 

[Cobiau Cymreig Wyllt]

OP - apologies in advance if I am about to hog your thread, but would like to ask a question of those replying...however, it may be one you might be wondering too...
in terms of 'riding through from behind' - I *think* I understand the theory of not strapping a horse down in front to give it a false outline/overbending it (bear with me, no one in my horse world talked about riding in an outline 20 years ago and since I've re-entered the fray, everyone seems to talk about it!) and so also I can see the sense in getting the horse to use its hindquarters to drive it from behind...also useful to hear that you would aim for this by transitions, half halts etc..BUT how would you describe 'riding through from behind' term of riding position? ie. to ride through from behind, are you aiming to sit deep - are you using a specific leg aid? what about hands? Just wondering, as I would really like to try this out myself, and have not really had a useful explanation as to what to do to actually ride it this way..

 

[Cobiau Cymreig Wyllt]

Ps I've just re-read my post and it might sound like I was saying no-one on this thread was giving a useful explanation of how to actually ride through from behind...I wasn't, I was referring to other people in the real world!

 

[annunziata]

Hey!! Weldone for having a breakthrough its always sooo rewarding. Some horses need a flash but if you have not had her teeth checked I would have that done when you can as it is something I do routinely every 6 months.
If you feel pony needs a poll pressure bit then try a french link hanging cheak. it is a better idea to get the horse to move through from behind (ie get the hind legs to step underneath then the head will follow suit!!
To ride from behind you need the hocks to step underneth I do this depending on how schooled neddy is with leg yeilds and then ask for the transitions as I come out eaither up or down this ensures the power is behind you and pony is not dragging along on the front. 20 metre cirles leg yeilding in walk or trot in and out works too. Dont panic if your tansitions are not brilliant and the head is everywhere as long as it is coming from behind its all good!! Have a chat with your instructor re the bit and stuff but you can always have a lesson with someone else, there is no rule you have to have a lesson with only one person. I was all focused on holding the head in until I went back to school in classical and realised I was focusing on the wrong end whoooppsss.
with the rushing it is most likely you are throwing pony slighty out of rythum just practice sitting tall and deep into your saddle if you want the trot to come back close your thighs and tighten you pelvis with a half halt and slow the rythum down.
Good luck and well done for having a break through
x

 

[annunziata]

PS I do join up with my horse and he loves it! I know most people would shoot me down but he was a nervous wreck when I got him and I needed him to relax with me. It never hurts to play with you pony
x

 

[PaddyMonty]

BUT how would you describe 'riding through from behind' term of riding position? ie. to ride through from behind, are you aiming to sit deep - are you using a specific leg aid? what about hands? Just wondering, as I would really like to try this out myself, and have not really had a useful explanation as to what to do to actually ride it this way..

The subject of working a horse in an outline is a very complex one with all the pieces needing to be in the right place for it to happen. All too often a false outline is the result. The answers to the question of 'How' often contain some of the elements required but rarely all. Just as important is the ability to spot the blocks to a horse working in a true outline. These can come from both horse and rider, more often from the rider.

I will attempt to answer you question in full which will also hopefully start a good constructive debate. This will have to wait though until I've finished work for the day.

 

[Queenbee]

I have a new gypsy cob mare who I got 2 months ago. She loves to hack and is very safe, but to school she is very unbalanced, grabs the bit and leans very hard, rushes around in trot.

I'm having lessons on her and we are slow to make progress. My instructor told me to lunge her with a rider with no reins so she has to balance herself. She also said to try riding her in a flash (As she currently has no noseband and opens her mouth really wide to evade the bit) And finally to move her reins onto the middle ring of her gag for a bit more control.

Now, I like natural horsemanship so was a bit dubious of puttung all this on her head, but my instructor assured me its just temporary until she relaxes, becomes more balanced and listened more.

So last night, I got my very balanced. light friend up on her nack and lunged her in walk and trot and a little bit of canter and she went great. Feeling inspired I rode her firsth thing today in a flash and with her reins on the middl egag ring and she went like a dream! Head low, steady, balanced trot, no leaning or pulling! She was amazing! So cant wait for my next lesson to show my instructor!

My question is though, what now? I will continue with the lungeing as its doing her good and building her fitness. But what about the gag and flash? Keep them for a while then take them away? Or just leave them on?

Thanks

Emma, don't get disheartened by these comments, they are all very constructive and speak the truth and from experience, I can personally say that I was in a similar situation to you a leaner who opened her mouth, I rode in a gag at one time, on the second hole, tried a flash and a grackle, yes all these sorted the problem, but it was a 'mask', and she didn't get better, infact, once she was used to the gag and its action she evaded that and leant on my hands again! It wasn't until I found a good instructor who suggested to me a different bit that would actually help ebony to carry herself that things started to change and I began to be able to school her properly. Now I ride her in a bit thats suitable and effective for schooling and it makes all the difference, she never fights or evades and certainly doesn't need and never really did need a flash/grackle etc...

What the other posters are saying is completely true, the gag will mask, its not for schooling and you should get other advice if this is what your instructor is suggesting.

 

[Kat]

OP - apologies in advance if I am about to hog your thread, but would like to ask a question of those replying...however, it may be one you might be wondering too...
in terms of 'riding through from behind' - I *think* I understand the theory of not strapping a horse down in front to give it a false outline/overbending it (bear with me, no one in my horse world talked about riding in an outline 20 years ago and since I've re-entered the fray, everyone seems to talk about it!) and so also I can see the sense in getting the horse to use its hindquarters to drive it from behind...also useful to hear that you would aim for this by transitions, half halts etc..BUT how would you describe 'riding through from behind' term of riding position? ie. to ride through from behind, are you aiming to sit deep - are you using a specific leg aid? what about hands? Just wondering, as I would really like to try this out myself, and have not really had a useful explanation as to what to do to actually ride it this way..

I'm not an instructor, but no there isn't a specific aid to get the horse "through from behind", I'll try to explain but I'm sure someone else will do it better.

You are aiming to have the horse pushing from behind, lifting its back, engaging its core and when it does this its head should naturally drop "onto the bit" i.e. face vertical or just in front of vertical, poll the highest point and neck nicely arched. This is what is often referred to as working in an outline or working on the bit.

However people commonly approach this back to front. To get the horse truely together and working correctly you need to start at the back, having the horse forward and active behind, tracking up and working into a soft contact, that it will reach for. You do not hoik the front end in to get the horse to tuck its nose in, that invariably leads to a false outline with the horse overbent, the back hollow and the hind legs trailing.

I would ask the horse to come round and onto the bit by using my legs to get it active behind, I would have a steady contact with my outside hand that i would aim to push the horse into, and I would ask for a tiny amount of flexion with my inside hand by squeezing and releasing with my third finger. I would prevent the horse from rushing using half halts, and keep the rhythm through my seat, and keep my own core engaged.

I'm not sure if i have quite explained that clearly, it is a difficult concept to get, and by far the easiest way to understand is to feel it by experiencing it on a schoolmaster.

 

[Bernster]

OP - apologies in advance if I am about to hog your thread, but would like to ask a question of those replying...however, it may be one you might be wondering too...
in terms of 'riding through from behind' - I *think* I understand the theory of not strapping a horse down in front to give it a false outline/overbending it (bear with me, no one in my horse world talked about riding in an outline 20 years ago and since I've re-entered the fray, everyone seems to talk about it!) and so also I can see the sense in getting the horse to use its hindquarters to drive it from behind...also useful to hear that you would aim for this by transitions, half halts etc..BUT how would you describe 'riding through from behind' term of riding position? ie. to ride through from behind, are you aiming to sit deep - are you using a specific leg aid? what about hands? Just wondering, as I would really like to try this out myself, and have not really had a useful explanation as to what to do to actually ride it this way..

Oooh now there is a question and a half. The elusive goal of all riders methinks!

I don't know nearly enough to answer this but can only say that I never really understood what people mean until I got myself a copy of Mary Wanless's Ride With Your Mind book and found an instructor who talks in similar terms. I never realised just how much goes into riding (I was treating my horse like a sofa and it showed!) but we are now doing some amazing work in the school and he is much softer, more forward and works into the contact in a lovely outline (for about 5 minutes then we lose it hehe) - which I thought we'd never do.

 

[Cortez]

Sometimes it all gets sooo overcomplicated, doesn't it? And theory is great, but horses often don't follow theories....So, ride it forwards, in rythmn, and help it to balance by bending on the turns and circles. Nosebands, nor gags, are not evil, just tools to use, or misuse as the case may be. It actually sounds as if your cob's problem is just greeness, in which case don't worry about all the horsey terms, "riding through", etc. and just try to ride, forwards, straight, in rythmn and with a contact.

 

[JFTDWS]

You are aiming to have the horse pushing from behind, lifting its back, engaging its core and when it does this its head should naturally drop "onto the bit" i.e. face vertical or just in front of vertical, poll the highest point and neck nicely arched. This is what is often referred to as working in an outline or working on the bit.

That is (I think) what I would think of as a good outline (where the forehand is visibly elevated by the stepping under of the engaged quarters, with the head carried proudly, arched neck, poll high) but most people I know believe that provided the nose is on or behind the vertical, it's right. I often see horses that appear to be downhill, even on the flat, with their hind legs trailing and the head carried low so that halfway down the neck becomes the highest point.

The problem I have is finding a dressage instructor who doesn't believe that the latter "outline" is the correct one - or (possibly more accurately) believes that it is better to have a novice horse on the vertical and downhill than in front of the vertical with the forehand elevated.

I've reached the point where I don't believe such instructors exist and that I must be mad to want my horse to resemble one of the classical paintings of lusitanos But maybe I am wrong - who knows.

(Sorry, useless rambling reply, I really just wanted to subscribe to this thread and see what Juno has to say...)

 

[Cortez]

Perhaps your horse doesn't resemble a Lusitano because it isn't one? Iberians are built VERY differently to the modern sport horse; they are "born on the bit", and MUCH easier to ride a la clasical principles.

 

[JFTDWS]

Perhaps your horse doesn't resemble a Lusitano because it isn't one? Iberians are built VERY differently to the modern sport horse; they are "born on the bit", and MUCH easier to ride a la clasical principles.

And yet I regularly get asked if my highland is a Spanish bred Why would you assume I have a modern sport horse anyway?

 

[PaddyMonty]

(Sorry, useless rambling reply, I really just wanted to subscribe to this thread and see what Juno has to say...)

Dont be silly. No one takes a blind bit of notice of anything I say (thankfully). I dont even have a horse

 

[JFTDWS]

Dont be silly. No one takes a blind bit of notice of anything I say (thankfully). I dont even have a horse

My observations would lead to me to believe that, while I can't judge whether you can "walk the walk", you can certainly do a convincing impression of someone who can "talk the talk" as it very much were

 

[Cortez]

And yet I regularly get asked if my highland is a Spanish bred Why would you assume I have a modern sport horse anyway?

The Highland is not built like an Iberian, despite what people say to you. Lusitano and PRE horses have a different placement of both hocks and necks which is unlike either native types or anything with TB in it, which the vast majority of modern horses and ponies have.

 

[JFTDWS]

The Highland is not built like an Iberian, despite what people say to you. Lusitano and PRE horses have a different placement of both hocks and necks which is unlike either native types or anything with TB in it, which the vast majority of modern horses and ponies have.

Strictly speaking, I never said highlands were like Iberians (though I have heard it suggested) but I really don't think it's relevant - although conformation will affect performance, I don't think that it is a bad idea to hold an image of "perfection" in your mind when schooling whether or not you are likely to achieve it. I like the raised forehand of the iberians in classical artwork and if, by riding with that image as my goal, I can raise my highland off his forehand and have him working into a nice frame, albeit not as exaggerated as the iberian horse in my head, then that has served its purpose, has it not?

 

[bananas_22]

Dont be silly. No one takes a blind bit of notice of anything I say (thankfully). I dont even have a horse

I'd say that makes you more worth listening to...without a horse of your own (but riding for other people as I understand it?), you are less likely to fall into bad habits that could lead us all astray

 

[rhino]

The problem I have is finding a dressage instructor who doesn't believe that the latter "outline" is the correct one - or (possibly more accurately) believes that it is better to have a novice horse on the vertical and downhill than in front of the vertical with the forehand elevated.

Do you not have any classical instructors locally? I'm a bit spoilt as my YO is a classical instructor, we have clinics with Marji Armstrong at the yard a couple of times a year... and Sylvia Loch is just down the road

http://www.classicalriding.co.uk/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
may be worth a look

 

[Cortez]

Strictly speaking, I never said highlands were like Iberians (though I have heard it suggested) but I really don't think it's relevant - although conformation will affect performance, I don't think that it is a bad idea to hold an image of "perfection" in your mind when schooling whether or not you are likely to achieve it. I like the raised forehand of the iberians in classical artwork and if, by riding with that image as my goal, I can raise my highland off his forehand and have him working into a nice frame, albeit not as exaggerated as the iberian horse in my head, then that has served its purpose, has it not?

Yes it has, and I didn't mean to cast aspertions on your Highland, but conformation does have a lot to do with why people are not able to "make" their horses look like the pictures. It's actually not possible for you to raise a horse's forehand, only he can do that, and only as far as he is physically endowed to do so. Keep that lovely Lusitano in your mind as you ride your undoubtedly equally lovely Highland

 

[Kat]

That is (I think) what I would think of as a good outline (where the forehand is visibly elevated by the stepping under of the engaged quarters, with the head carried proudly, arched neck, poll high) but most people I know believe that provided the nose is on or behind the vertical, it's right. I often see horses that appear to be downhill, even on the flat, with their hind legs trailing and the head carried low so that halfway down the neck becomes the highest point.

The problem I have is finding a dressage instructor who doesn't believe that the latter "outline" is the correct one - or (possibly more accurately) believes that it is better to have a novice horse on the vertical and downhill than in front of the vertical with the forehand elevated.

I've reached the point where I don't believe such instructors exist and that I must be mad to want my horse to resemble one of the classical paintings of lusitanos But maybe I am wrong - who knows.

(Sorry, useless rambling reply, I really just wanted to subscribe to this thread and see what Juno has to say...)

I know I want to read Juno's explanation too!

I think with your horse, you need to remember that he isn't a Lusitano, and that a cob's build makes it quite difficult for them to work in that way (it isn't what they are designed for) so you may never have quite that picture. However he can still work correctly over his back, that is the crucial thing and a good dressage judge should be able to recognise that.

It may be that initially when you get him working over his back his head isn't in the right place, many horses get a bit "deep" when they start to work over their back, it isn't necessarily that their head is being winched in, often as they get stronger this improves though. The key is what their hind legs and their back is doing not where their head is, whether that is a case of nose poking, above the bit or getting a bit deep and overbent, obviously neither are ideal but better to have a horse whose legs and back are doing the right thing with its head in slightly the wrong place than the other way around.

Cobs are often abit "earthbound" and struggle to get the lift in the forehand that you see at higher levels of dressage even when they are engaged and through.

Many horse's conformation makes it difficult for them to appear in the true classical shape, but they can all be light in the hand and work from behind over their back and into a soft contact.

*disclaimer, I am not saying cobs can't do dressage, I know that they can, DH and I have both competed in dressage on cobs and ridden cobs that have smashing lateral work.

 

[traceyann]

With my cob god his head was like a ton of lead i used to have him loose french link snaffle had very light contact or he would lean and used a lot of leg. This dosent mean boot him in the sides which im sure you know. lots of circles as soon as he got heavy leg yeilds lots of raised trotting poles to lift the front. stand to trot walk to canter more they use their back legs under themself it helps to lift the front. Iv only had my cob in middle ring gag cross country because im eight stone and he 16.2 lump big horse.

 

[Kat]

Sorry JFTD just seen you referring to your highland, I always assumed the coloured cob in your avatar was yours? Hence I have rambled on about cobs! Though it applies pretty equally to natives!

 

[Queenbee]

The Highland is not built like an Iberian, despite what people say to you. Lusitano and PRE horses have a different placement of both hocks and necks which is unlike either native types or anything with TB in it, which the vast majority of modern horses and ponies have.

Whilst this is true, friesians have this high head carriage too, my mare is TB x but for years her head carriage was a sodding nightmare for me because she strove to carry it in a more 'friesian way' If you look in one of my albums JFTD you will see that eb's can carry off the 'high head carriage' but when she does the placement of her head makes it so uncomfortable for me mentally (if that makes sense) that I end up tensing and causing her to hollow and become false, you can achieve the 'higher carriage' with her, but I feel that she actually looks and maintains our traditional carriage better. Striving to be something that you are not, is totally unnecessary, you have a fantastic horse, and there is nothing wrong with riding in with a lower outline, surely its all about what suits the horses way of going. I am lucky I can have both outlines on her but her breeding probably lends itself to this, why stress a horse to ride in a way thats not natural to its breeding? You may get your highland mistaken for an iberian occasionally, but then if that is the case they probably know nothing or that they need to go to spec savers that takes nothing away from your horse, its just that they really aren't that similar are they?

Anyway, I would go with the lower outline and when things are all sorted and settled and going nicely there are things that you can do to adjust the headcarriage, but, you are only going to get the head carriage of an iberian/friesian type if you buy one.

 

[JFTDWS]

Sorry JFTD just seen you referring to your highland, I always assumed the coloured cob in your avatar was yours? Hence I have rambled on about cobs! Though it applies pretty equally to natives!

He is indeed, but I also have two highlands. The cob's my old lad and he's as well schooled as he's ever going to get. My 5 y/old highland is really the only one who gets schooled in a manner I am concerned about...

I do think you're generalising slightly as there is a massive difference in the conformation and paces of a highland vs a welsh D vs a traditional cob (etc.). But I digress...

I think you've misunderstood my comment about the lusitano - I'm under no illusions that my horse is anything other than he is, but if you work with a horse, you normally have a picture in your head of how you would like them to look, in an ideal world. I would rather hold a picture of a classically schooled lusitano, rather than some of the horses I have seen competing at high level dressage / photos in books where the horse does not appear elevated and the head if carried lower with a lot more rein contact. My highland is never going to resemble either of those images closely, but that doesn't mean the choice of image I aim for won't affect how he ends up working.

My comments refer to a general tendancy in instructors in my area (or maybe just those I have witnessed) who seem to favour and encourage strong rein contact holding a horse down onto the forehand, because at that point the horse's head is on the vertical. I'm not talking about vague concepts of lightness here - I'm talking about being able to take a photo of the horse and draw a line from quarters to wither and extrapolate it into the ground in front of the horse. I tend to film my horse working where possible and I am less concerned about the position of his nose as I am with being confident that drawing the same line on an image of him will not project into the ground. Does that make sense? I may not have described it well...

Sometimes we get it so that it looks (in my head, at least) "right", sometimes less so - but I am confident that the answer to getting consistent "right-ness" isn't in pulling at or playing with his mouth. If I am struggling to get the "right" feeling, I start attempting lateral work and increasing transitions within the gait to get him working properly.

I think I've definitely digressed here - I've lost the point of what I was saying anyway (got distracted by an unrelated schooling discussion with my office buddy - I love having a horsey friend in the office, but I reckon everyone else must be bored sick of us!).