Jenny L-C on British Breeding

[airedale]

Havent' seen this anywhere else but 'Good On' Jenny !!!

She has been elected Chair of British Dressage and quote in H&H last week is

"We have wonderful horses that we must produce to the highest level" and the article compares this with Desi D. who said "I'd love our riders to have British horses, but we need horses that are going to win"

BOOOOOOH to Desi

Hurray !!! to Jenny

(Don't forget D. Courage, D. Gold, Dazzler - ALL BRITISH BRED)

So we CAN do this and get BRITISH BRED horses to the top and now BD has someone who is prepared to prove this at the top of the organisation.

If the Portugese can take Iberian horses to the Olympics and do well - who remembers Rafael De Soto on that magical horse coming 4th in the music final last Olympics ? Up against the German warmbloods

Let us support Jenny and support British Breeding

and let's aim to have British horses competing for Britain at London 2012 !!!

 

[S_N]

I agree. *Whispers* Dutch Courage was Dutch bred, though technically half TB so that bit's British in origin.

 

[airedale]

but bred in Britain !!! - THAT is what counts - not imported over the Channel from factory farm in Germany or Holland
and also bred and kept entire when that wasn't so fashionable over here

JLC did wonders for UK breeding and has rightly got a reputation that is enviable and good on her for trying to show that the Brits can compete on British bred horses and still beat the world.

It's not the 'origins' of the horses (as some of those German things are based on UK TBs and UK native ponies to make the German clodhoppers fit to ride - sorry - hobby horse of mine)

The Portugese were thought 'strange' for taking Iberian horses to the Olympics - but they proved their point

 

[Panther]

Go Jen... she will do her bit, I still use dazzler.. super horse... but there are some super stallions from abroad here to... and it doesn't hurt aour programme to use imports... Showmaker is superb. most westphalian and sports ponies decend from welsh exports!

 

[Partoow]

Erm actually R de Soto is SPANISH and so were the horses.
The Spanish government and the government in Holland and Germany have a State' breeding' support system . This leads to tax concessions and a lot of horses being bred and therefore a large selection of horses.
Economics make breeding not very worth while and , i do agree JL-C has done SO much and was certainly the inspiration behind me being interested in dressage, but it will take more than her enthusiasm it will need a better understanding of what it takes to breed and produce these horse and this will need along term strategy and accept that good horses well bred in this country will cost more because of the Government not treating horses as livestock and therefore and lack of financial support through the affore mensioned Tax concessions [esp rates and VAT]
Horses on the continent are not treated badly they are just produced in a more economic way.

 

[S_N]

I know Jennie L-C bought him as a 2yo and I'm sure she told me that she found him in Holland whilst looking for a show jumper - which is actually what he was bred for.

 

[magic104]

Dutch Courage, was bred by the late Mrs Goodall and was acquired by Jennie, in partnership with Margaret Clayton, in 1986.
Taken from 2004 report from H&H when reporting his death

 

[magic104]

Dutch Courage, was bred by the late Mrs Goodall and was acquired by Jennie, in partnership with Margaret Clayton, Taken from 2004 report from H&H when reporting his death
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/388/48119.html
Does not quiet add up to the info below stating 1969 to 1994??

DUTCH COURAGE - 1969-1994
Graded BWBS Group 1. Dark brown, 16.1hh with 9" bone.

Millerole Cobalt (XX) Téléférique
Alizarina
Muscida (XX) Barneveldt
Mackwiller
Higonia Avenir (Geld) Karolus van Wittenstein
Ronny
Cigonia (Gron) Pepijn
Nigonia

 

[airedale]

and look at the legacy he's left - saw him when he was alive and Dazzler was 2

 

[Partoow]

i dont think, Airdale that you need to be so derogatory about horses bred on the continent to justify the quality we also have here. All horses have value when well bred and well produced regardless of origin.
I will endevour to promote breeding with my own , dutch bred stallion who i have competed for MY country and will value his heritage both the Irish Tb and the Dutch warmblood.
I am sure Jenny L-C will use her very huge experiece and reason to promote good horses with good riders for the benifit of British Dressage.

 

[mat]

Airdale, although I applaud you for your support of British breeding, I do feel that you do need to be slightly more open minded.

You should maybe go and experience the way that these horses are bred on the continent, in more than one place to get a well rounded opinion.

You also talk about JLC , may I just say that she spoke to me at a recent premier league and expressed a great interest in one of my stallions and we had a lovely discussion about his bloodlines, AND the stud in Germany where he was purchased.
She seems to have the knowledge that you maybe lack, and although she is promoting british breeding, she does not condemn buying a horse from germany, holland, belgium etc..

If you could just realise that to get Britain known for breeding horses that can compete, then the method that you call "factory farming" would help greatly with our chances of getting the odd few fantastic horses.

It is just too much to ask expecting one good broodmare and one good stallion to produce a good and talented horse every time!

 

[airedale]

I've seen first hand in this country the 'fall out' from the factory farmed horses

the top class stuff you are referring to that has cost 50000euros and upwards isn't what I'm referring to

It's more the middle of the road to dross end that mugs from the UK think they are getting a 'bargain' that is 'so much better than anything here' when they hand over their money to the Germans - buying a load of unsound trouble they are incapable of riding and if they hadn't bought would have probably ended up with a better 'life' in a tin than in the hands of these people taken over the channel by trainers on a commission (that the mug knows nothing about)

I do agree that importing new blood if it is top quality is not necessarily a 'bad thing' - but the assumption that the only way to improve british bred horses IS to import is wrong - fundamentally wrong

We've spent 20 years importing - the Germans only spent 20 years nobbling our best Native and TB horses - then they stopped and got on with their 'product'

We should do the same - we've got enough diversity in what has already been imported to be able to continue without every year seeing yet another 20 to 50 imported horses standing at stud.

We have the quality here now - what we need is people to stop looking outwards and look inwards first - yep - if they REALLY cannot find anything then perhaps they should look to Ireland first

a lot of the mugs that are importing horses from over the channel would be far better off riding a nice TBxnative or TBxID or (ducking here) TBxcleveland Bay (where is SSMum ?!) that they can handle - isn't 17hh and far too big and hasn't got movement that they are incapable of sitting on.

The people who CAN import - like the Carl Hesters of this world for example - are a different kettle of fish

BUT for every 1 horse that CH would import - there are 100 mugs that would import anything - and those 100 mugs are the bread and butter clients and sales that British breeders could do with to make ends meet - pending the arrival some time in 2200 or thereabouts - of a proper state support as the foreigners have for our horse breeding industry.

I don't lack experience - I just look at the WHOLE picture and not just the top class stuff

for every 1% top class there are 95% joe public - and yes - maybe selling that one top class horse will keep the boat afloat - but so would selling the 95 also-rans

 

[mat]

My mistake! I was just going off on a tangent!

 

[Panther]

Airedale - ditto..

People are soo infuriating... they buy big moving WB they can't sit to and bit within seven bells of their life... the ones that stay sound that is...

Massive, massive probelm unsoundness... and we seem to have them all here!!!

Our Irish pony came over with points left us at medium... fab extentions... we had a section C forte was lateral. You don't have to have a WB but seems 'essential' piece of kit now..
Our TB x Trek had a two year unbeaten run!! Tiny little horse compared to the germans... All never had a day off lame!

BUY BRITISH!!!! Any reputable breeder will let you visit as often as you like, speak to other owners, offer advice and support FOC! Any reputable breeder would never sell rubbish wrapped up as the next Painted Black as their reputation is everything!

 

[The Voice]

I think we can breed horses of quality to reach the top of the sport BUT.......

As an example to have a horse 'produced to the highest level' in showjumping needs to be done by a professional and it costs on average £12k per year from the age of 4 to at least an 8 year old so a minimum of £48k if you are not a professional rider, and to get the opportunities to develop these young horses and get the experience you have got to compete abroad, then the rider has to be around the top 10 to get the invites which is why many young horses get sold or passed when they are 8 yo.

It is all very well people saying bred the best horses but how many people can afford it and what support do you get from the industry? ZERO

I know as I have bred Grade A horse and an International showjumping horse and have another 2 with potential and could have bred another 5 or 6 but I would never have got the costs back as foals and there is no way I can afford production costs, unless I sell the International horse (which would have to be abroad as you get better money) and is defeating the object and the reason we bred horses.
We have reached our achievements with ONE good quality mare so you do not have to be a big stud to bred top horses as when our first one was born we were at a livery yard.

Good luck to everyone with mares in foals and youngsters.

 

[Damien]

Hi quite agree with you Voice, in a previous topic someone posted "British Breeding is in a tad of a crisis isn't it" and here you are saying that in order to sell your horse at its realistic value it will need to be sent "abroad" Bit of a clichee isn't it

 

[airedale]

really what it's saying is that the foreigners recognise a great horse - even if it's not bred in germany or holland

the vast majority of brits only recognise a great horse if it has 'imported' tattoed on it's arse - if it's bred in britain it could be jumping a 7ft course and they'd still go abroad and spend 5 times as much to buy an inferior animal

the ONLY way to change this is to get the top british riders in all disciplines to RIDE british

then the customers will BUY british

that is why JLC is so important

if we can get the carl hesters of this world to RIDE british then joe public will start copying and buy british

 

[Damien]

Yes but there is so much more to it.

The infrastructure abroad is well established, our neighbouring EU countries have talent scouts, they work with many yards, trainers, competitors and breeders many of whom work together. In a few days you can jump in your "agents" car and travel to see a dozen or so horses, all within your budget, preferred height, level of training etc. Whilst here in the UK the majority of breeders and trainers refuse point blank to work with agents to sell their horses for some unknown fear of someone actually making money out of the service they provide!

Another pitfall is the general lack of data availible on British bred horses....

When you look at a horse abroad, it's pedigree reads like a who's who of International bloodlines, a quick seacrh on the internet reveals so much about the horses parentage, you can tap into a database and find out all the information you ever wanted to know, how many foals the mare produced, how many reached what level in competition, etc etc...

In the UK we have nothing to compare with this, and whilst NED is one way forwards it won't be free! Us good old Brits will have to spend even more money to access that data..

Then there are the wonderful BEF schemes who wholeheartedly want to convince the British Breeders that they can provide a stronger market place for British bred horses........ offering a wonderful premium system which in Europe is offered by the studbooks.. and then there are the Brightwells sales, which aparently seem to be flooded with imports too......

But not everyone is complaining............ there are many many breeders who have succesfully bred and produced some top class horses, whose clientel is well established and whose reputation is second to none.....

 

[magic104]

All we do is go round in circles discussing the same subject, bringing up the same comments time & again. So my question is what exactly are any of you doing about it? Airedale apart from moaning about foreign horses on here, what exactly have you done to change the situation. You state you breed what do you breed, I don’t think I have ever seen any photo’s of your animals. Who else actually asks for changes? It gets so boring reading the same thing & most of it is so negative, I have yet to read about anyone except maybe “The Voice” stating they have actually spoken to anyone quote “I was talking to DEFRA when they announced NED and as I work with databases and have horses I suggested to them that the way they were going to do it would not work and that passports should have done from one central PIO so all the info came back to one place and be run like DVLA”

If more people had contributed then perhaps “they” would have listened. Comments on here aren’t going to change anything. The worse thing that ever happened was not having passports issued by one body. If proper records were kept of our UK bred horses/ponies then perhaps there would have been a better argument for buying UK. How many times does it have to be mentioned that’s a good little jumping pony how is it bred? Not only does no one know the history, they don’t know exactly how old. There are far too many good horses competing at riding club level that are of unknown breeding. We have spent years guessing, TB x native usually produce very nice riding club horses/ponies, but which stallions have the best record?? No one knows, & it will stay that way until every horse competing has a breeding record to refer to. If you want change then work for it as a group because that is the only way you will have any chance of achieving it.

 

[Damien]

[ QUOTE ]
If more people had contributed

[/ QUOTE ]

The additional workload that has been placed on Breed Societies to allow a private limited company create the NED database has been tremendous.

No finacial support is given to the societies to help process that data and much of the work is done by volonteers. - Nice to know that the Limited comapny that is doing the work are being well paid though!

If DEFRA had sought and distributed funds evenly between the breed societies allowing them to employ the labour that is required to process the data more quickly and efficiently then the database would be much further ahead than it already is.

The major set back at the moment is that the data being entered is often misspelled and incorrect and it is already causing havock. Yes by all means it will have teething problems but I wonder when Defra stops pumping money into this private development how long it will survive.

Once again politicians making major decisions and cocking things up.

 

[airedale]

as for not tracing british bred horses - a lot can be found on the allbreedspedigree website

certainly all of ours and stallions I've bred from are all on there - very good site

so there remains no excuse for not being able to track down the pedigree of british bred horses.

the site also lists progeny by year, sex, colour etc and a mini biog

 

[The Voice]

I used to be passionate about British Breeding but got fed up with wasting my time and banging my head against the wall. How many people even know the names of people who are in charge of breeding programes or even the name of the minister of the horse. I don't want glory or name in lights, but PR wise for British Breeding, one of my horses has done well and not once has this been mentioned (apart from a brief piece in the H&H). We are ordinary people, with ordinary jobs and with one brood mare have breed a young horse that can compete and beat some of the best young horses in Europe (results to prove it). If we can do it, anyone can. TBH I am not really that bothered anymore that my horses are British Breed as at the end of the day, on his passport it will always say that we bred him and it is what really matters and will be reconized .
At the time DEFRA also passed on my details to the people who did the 'Henley Report' which looked into the Equestrian Industry and how it was run and I had other Interesting conversations with them

The main problem is that the industry is fragmented and every one is looking after their only little patch. For a small island we have so many societies. The passport fiasco summed it up really.

 

[airedale]

well - I don't actually put loads of piccys up - 'cos I had a dial-up link until march this year and piccys take a long time - not everyone has broadband although I do now and it is great

so piccyloadingtimeforthosenotonbroadband winge over ;-))

I breed sports ponies. I'm a member of the SPSS. I homebred a nationally graded sports pony stallion that was written up in both H&H and BD and competed nationally both able bodied and paradressage. Homebred mare - dam of the above - won and placed county showing - won with Roger Stack judging at Ardingly. Stallions used include Derwen Red Marvel and also a premium AA stallion long dead now, plus of course Treliver Decanter.

I research my bloodlines using Allbreedspedigree and am this time using Aimbrey Chester.

The horses are genuine sports horses that will turn their hoof to anything. Half-sister of teh above stallion has done SJ/XC/WH/SH with 3 different riders and goes well for a 4th who doesn't compete.

The stallion is now about to start pony racing. The mare I mentioned that won county showing came 4th in first pony race at Lingfield last month. She also been placed XC and RC Dressage with me riding.

All are longterm sound - I don't pay vets bills out for anything other than jabs
All are good tempered and all are graded and all can be ridden by adults or children.
I only use graded stallions as well.

So I do 'put my money where my mouth is'

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e294/airedaleairedale/2005_0829_121554AB.jpg

SH mare mentioned above with her foal (now 2) by T.Decanter

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e294/airedaleairedale/bonnie1a.jpg
veteran broodmare now 24 and still going strong - done everything and GRADED but won't have another foal now

Stallion now starting SJ and will go eventing and racing on sat.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e294/airedaleairedale/2004_1002_132028AA.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e294/airedaleairedale/14.jpg
show mare that has also done XC and dressage and racing and in foal to A. Chester

2yr old by T. Decanter
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e294/airedaleairedale/2007_0519_124009aa.jpg
he's SHunter/event/dressage/sportshorse

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e294/airedaleairedale/2003_0720_151838AA.jpg
and I ride Irish and he's qualified for RC Nationals at Peterborough for both dressage and riding test for the last 5 years but I've now retired him after a torn hquarter muscle due to hole in a warmup area last summer

nuff piccies ? ;-))

 

[The Voice]

With regards to NED.

1) There should never have been the 80 plus PIO's which means information has to be gathered from 80 different sources with information coming back at different time scales. This should have been done from a central single PIO point. By the time the data is processed it will be out of date. Also how many people do not know the breeding and have made it up ie looks Irish Draught, got to be by King of Diamonds bloodline. How many unscrupulous dealers would have made them up to increase the price, how many horses are going to have more than one passport in it's lifetime.

For a horse to have got a passport (with a photo) it should have been Microchipped at the same time and recorded on the passport so they matched. The additional cost for owners would have been about £10-£15 which in the world of horses is nothing.

2) If I remember rightly, DEFRA were going to pump money into it for 2 years then it was going to have to be self funding. The only way they can do this is to sell the personal information to companies for marketing purposes, which they said was NEVER going to happen (quote by the minister in the H&H) and I have never seen an 'opt in' on any of the forms, ( Pet ID actually sell there information so they may have an opt in).

 

[Damien]

[ QUOTE ]
but PR wise for British Breeding....

[/ QUOTE ]

But lets face it many British breeders don't often do enough for themselves either........

If you look at what the studs do for themselves on the continent in comparison to what our equivalent studs do here in the UK, media and advertising wise the differences are quite flagrant. They have made good use of the Internet to attract a wider audience on an International scale, they invest in professional photography and hire PR companies to do their publicity and marketing... just as any good business should do. The whole publicity and marketing campaign done by both breeder and society abroad in comparison to what is done within the UK is miles apart.

However those that choose to really make the effort do reap the benefits so the market is there. I don't believe people are flocking abroad to buy better horses they are flocking abroad attracted by household names to buy a branded product!

I also think it is very important to recognise that many people labeling "British Breeding" as not being up to scratch are usually Sport Horse Breeders failing to sell their well bred stock, and not the British Breeder at large, as the TB industry, the Pony Industry, and other specific breed industries do very well selling their stock, both Nationally and Internationally. We have a large variety of studs to us locally, one a very famous pony stud producing top class show ponies and welsh ponies that are sold around the world and are a now household name. One a breeder of Clydesdale's, another breeds Highlands and another Shetland Ponies, another is re known for its dressage and sport ponies, with semen shipped abroad from their stallion and ponies competing at both National and FEI level. It has taken them a lifetime to establish themselves as they didn't have the Internet back in the good old days.

One of the most difficult issues that breeders seem to face is identifying that the mares they are breeding from predominately TB and TB crosses aren't mares that have the movement or the ability themselves to compete at high level dressage or showjumping but who believe that a flashy top level stallion will improve the next generation and that rarely works.

The British breeder needs to clearly identify what "type" of horse they are wanting to breed, who their Target audience are and select the most suitable mare to produce that end result and not just use any fashionable stallion that makes them drool.

 

[airedale]

but it's the sports horses that are needed to compete at Olympic level - we don't have olympic events for Clydesdales, Welsh Ponies, Highlands and Shetlands !!!

As for not promoting stock - when was the last time you looked at advertising costs ??

This isn't 'rip-off' Britain for nothing !!

You can bank on the fact that our advertising costs are 3x more expensive than overseas - everything else is

Another factor is that unlike the continental breeders who will sell any hores to any rider irrespective of whether they can ride it or not - the british breeder will try and make sure that the horse fits the rider and that it will make a successful partnership

having bred the stock you want it to have as best a future as you can ensure for it

 

[ihatework]

but it's the sports horses that are needed to compete at Olympic level
<font color="red"> Agreed </font>
- we don't have olympic events for Clydesdales, Welsh Ponies, Highlands and Shetlands !!! <font color="red"> Also agreed but that doesn't distract from the fact that these are british breeds that are infact successfully bred in some cases. </font>

As for not promoting stock - when was the last time you looked at advertising costs ??
<font color="red"> Again I see your point but the best british sportshorse studs will sell their stock from reputation and word of mouth. They rarely advertise in H&amp;H and suchlike, unless say they are doing a big stud reduction (i.e. clearing out cheaply the not top quality they have remaining etc.) </font>

This isn't 'rip-off' Britain for nothing !!

You can bank on the fact that our advertising costs are 3x more expensive than overseas - everything else is

Another factor is that unlike the continental breeders who will sell any hores to any rider irrespective of whether they can ride it or not - the british breeder will try and make sure that the horse fits the rider and that it will make a successful partnership

<font color="red"> I disagree. I think any large stud will sell their average stock to whoever comes up with the cash. The decent horses they may be more picky about or may keep for themselves </font>

having bred the stock you want it to have as best a future as you can ensure for it
<font color="red"> I don't disagee with this sentiment at all but it is a typical small hobby breeder way of thinking IMO, if you are referring to wanting to produce top sportshorses it is luck rather than the norm for horses to come from a single breeder of 2/3 horses </font>

<font color="red"> </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red"> There are hundreds of thousands of horses on this planet and yet only a fraction perform at the top level in their chosen discipline. What mainland Europe does is increase their chances of breeding a superstar by breeding more stock in the first place. </font>

 

[airedale]

all round good horse is what everybreeder should be trying for - something that is rideable, handleable, sound in the long term, good doer, good conformation and if it's a world-beater on top of that even better

and what mainland europe does is breed for Premarin atm in amongst all those horses......not nice

they also breed for the table - which we try not to do

as they know premarin mares and edible horsemeat is a nice byproduct of overproduction - which is what they do

 

[airedale]

also - if you sell the wrong horse to the wrong person knowingly then you are at risk of reputation damage as that wrong rider can and does turn a happy well adjusted horse into a sour nasty monster and then it ends up on Project Horses

bad horses aren't born - they are made that way by humans

so anyone who does sell a horse to someone whose ideas of their capability is like the 'one that got away' to a fisherman is risking a year or two down the line this 'well bred by x out of y bred by z stud' appearing as a complete hooligan

 

[The Voice]

totally agree with the comment about PR and the other issues.

We don't breed horses to sell but to see them compete so although it is nice to see pieces about them, we do not use publcations as a shop window although we do have good relationships with a number of them. We are fortunate enough to have seen a foal born, developing and then competing at the NEC and other large arenas and still own them, and thats reason we bred them. Up until 15 years ago I had never been near a horse and made the mistake of saying ridding a horse is like riding a motorbike, went for a lesson, hooked, so the story begins!!
i work in marketing and agree that it is done pretty poorly but that is because few can see the benefits of an initial out lay and investing in it.
People are always bleating about British Breeding and how poor it is so you would think when good results come along from any British Bred horse, they would use it to promote how well we can do it but there you go......