Joe Midgely Clinics
- Thread starter Ample Prosecco
- Start date
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
Really interesting update, thank you for sharing! 
twiggy2
Well-Known Member
Would you do a write up for us too please? I am very interested in his training despite currently being horseless, I am hoping that will change this year.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Can I import Joe to Glasgow?
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Please update!
TPO
🤠🏴
He's great, isn't he? Just has something about him that you can see in how he interacts with the horses. Can't wait until he's back in Scotland this April, always an educational weekend.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Ok Project Canter:
According to Joe the issue with Lottie's canter is that she thinks the way she canters is the way it is meant to be. She is not expecting a release and therefore does not look for one and did not really notice when Joe offered her one. She tolerates very high levels of pressure without objection, assuming that canter = pressure and pulling like a train. So we need to make things crystal clear for her: There is better way of doing this that is much nicer for the rider and MUCH MUCH MUCH nicer for her!
I am taking a break from jumping till Jump Camp in March apart from a Howden Way session I've already paid for. But the jumping does not ruin the canter really because she knows what jumping is all about. She lands and looks for the next fence and she can shorten and lengthen to fences because she knows the job. But Joe says she learnt everything backwards. Instead of learning the tools on the flat and then putting it together round a course, she learnt to jump a course but does not have the basic tools on the flat. SHe knows the job but not the skills that make up the job.
I could just carry on like that - we are doing fine on paper! But I hate the way it feels on the flat. And now that someone else has also said 'urgh no, it does not need to be that way' she is going back to nursery school and re-learning the canter from the ground up. With softness and lightness. I am excited, but hardly dare hope that this can get sorted in just a few weeks. But she is clever, has the physical skills she needs (balance etc) but she just does not understand and so I need to change her mind about what cantering is about not school her body.
I will update here in case anyone is interested.
According to Joe the issue with Lottie's canter is that she thinks the way she canters is the way it is meant to be. She is not expecting a release and therefore does not look for one and did not really notice when Joe offered her one. She tolerates very high levels of pressure without objection, assuming that canter = pressure and pulling like a train. So we need to make things crystal clear for her: There is better way of doing this that is much nicer for the rider and MUCH MUCH MUCH nicer for her!
I am taking a break from jumping till Jump Camp in March apart from a Howden Way session I've already paid for. But the jumping does not ruin the canter really because she knows what jumping is all about. She lands and looks for the next fence and she can shorten and lengthen to fences because she knows the job. But Joe says she learnt everything backwards. Instead of learning the tools on the flat and then putting it together round a course, she learnt to jump a course but does not have the basic tools on the flat. SHe knows the job but not the skills that make up the job.
I could just carry on like that - we are doing fine on paper! But I hate the way it feels on the flat. And now that someone else has also said 'urgh no, it does not need to be that way' she is going back to nursery school and re-learning the canter from the ground up. With softness and lightness. I am excited, but hardly dare hope that this can get sorted in just a few weeks. But she is clever, has the physical skills she needs (balance etc) but she just does not understand and so I need to change her mind about what cantering is about not school her body.
I will update here in case anyone is interested.
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j1ffy
Well-Known Member
It sounds really promising - I'd be interested in hearing how you go about it as it must be difficult when she doesn't respond to a release. How will you explain what is nicer? Does she respond well to voice aids or does it mean applying a sharper pressure then a clearer release? She sounds like a tricky puzzle to work out!
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
We started shaping it when Joe was here and have since schooled with some improvement already. So the idea is we get a really soft and light, slow, balanced trot and ask for canter off that. Also keeping the shoulder up so thinking of raising the inside hand and getting more active with the leg to stop her dropping that shoulder. Then wait with an even contact for the instant she softens - not because she is looking for a relese but because she eventually just will by chance. At that moment of (relative) lightness release fully. She may then accelerate so get back in there with the hold. Repeat, repeat.
If you get 2-3 strides of canter that is a bit lighter and not accelerating, come back to trot, then walk then halt and release fully for a complete break to say 'yay - Jackpot release. ' In theory she will start linking the releases with those moments of lightness and will start to carry lightness through for a few more strides.
We are initially aiming for just moments, then 3 strides, then 4/5 then 6/7 etc Then she will start to get it and we can move to partial releases in canter once she seems to be looking for them instead of dropping the contact completely when she softens or lightens. (Well as completely as you can safely!) So it's not a sharper pressure but it is a much clearer release. It needs to be ON or OFF at this stage. With the OFF being the reinforcer for lightness. Timing is key so I hope I can get it right enough times for it to make sense to her.
I could post some video of both me and Joe riding on Day Zero. If anyone is genuinely interested in seeing video (and not just so they can shred the method or me!) then pm me and I'll send links of unlisted videos.
(I am all for constructive criticism but I'm not puttting a trainer up for shredding without him agreeing that. Which he hasn't and I'm sure wouldn't. Though he knows we share clips within friendship and horsemanship FB groups.)
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
OK, he has just left...
What a fantastic session.
BH walked some circles on a halter, changed rein numerous times and... it was amazing.
I had briefed him that BH is a lovely horse who I have pretty much jumped on and got going, as he is a pleasure to ride. I have not attended to the details as I have been mainly happy hacking, cantering on the beach and generally having fun. There is a brace in there, but it was down my priorities as it hasn't really caused any issues.
I had said I was happy to work in hand as opposed to riding, as the brace is there even when turned out, tied, led etc. Not all of the time, just at times of stress. I expected to have help to remove the brace, yes, but not the detail that he went into. Not only to help BH to relax into requests, but also to help him to learn to use his body in a way that will translate to his future work.
It was about him reaching into the turn, not just spinning round. It was not mad flagging, it was all slow, deliberate and with purpose. At times, BH got frustrated and even angry as he was needing to use his body. All at walk, but BH was having to release old patterns to learn the new and better ones. It helped him realise he needed to really try, as opposed to doing the minimum. BH is all about the minimum.
Mind blown. He is coming back next week for more.
Highly recommend.
chaps89
Well-Known Member
Argh, that sounds so good!
I sent an enquiry a few weeks ago but haven’t heard anything back, did you both just get hold of him via email and have a bit of a wait?
I sent an enquiry a few weeks ago but haven’t heard anything back, did you both just get hold of him via email and have a bit of a wait?
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
He’s amazing!
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
Yes for me.
chaps89
Well-Known Member
Thanks, I obviously just need to be more patient!
j1ffy
Well-Known Member
He does sounds pretty awesome! I might have to get in touch once I've got Chilli back in work (whenever that might be)
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
My sharer has worked with him for years with her previous share horse, so she was my way in.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
I wish there was a clone up near Glasgow.
iknowmyvalue
Well-Known Member
This thread has reminded me to send an email asking about lessons. Will be interested to see what he thinks of Pepsi…
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Project Canter week 1 update. 4 canter sessions this week, mixed in with groundwork and hacking. Big shifts already. Day 1: only tiny releases sere possible on the left rein which probably did not mean much to her, and I could release for 2-3 strides on the right rein as she softened and carried the soft feel forwards.
Today, on the left rein she was no longer accelerating/trying to speed up, but maintained a steady, collected canter throughout. Also did not fall in. More weight in my hands than I would like but less than half of what it was a week ago. Nowhere near where I want it, but if I had been in a trad dressage lesson I would have considered that the nicest canter she has ever given me.
On the right rein we could release more often as she seems to get it more on that rein. Still no consistency but the penny is beginning to drop. It felt 100 x nicer than the pulling like a train and dropping a shoulder canter of just a week ago. And she even did that with JOE riding her! So it was not just my rubbish riding. After over a year of trying to address this, something very different is now happening and it feels great. I hope she is heaving a sigh of relief. I certainly am.
Onwards!
Today, on the left rein she was no longer accelerating/trying to speed up, but maintained a steady, collected canter throughout. Also did not fall in. More weight in my hands than I would like but less than half of what it was a week ago. Nowhere near where I want it, but if I had been in a trad dressage lesson I would have considered that the nicest canter she has ever given me.
On the right rein we could release more often as she seems to get it more on that rein. Still no consistency but the penny is beginning to drop. It felt 100 x nicer than the pulling like a train and dropping a shoulder canter of just a week ago. And she even did that with JOE riding her! So it was not just my rubbish riding. After over a year of trying to address this, something very different is now happening and it feels great. I hope she is heaving a sigh of relief. I certainly am.
Onwards!
tda
Well-Known Member
Had a look on his website, but no 2023 clinic dates up yet
TPO
🤠🏴
https://facebook.com/events/s/theodoras-fundraiser/1488403154989790/
Hi last update was that he was finalising clinic dates and to contact him if anyone was interested in hosting/organising one.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...p2nk3ziLfGSZukAfWNcavmPWCl&id=100063884355459
His young daughter has been unwell and he has been busy fundraising to thank the hospital. He's also putting on a demo 11 Feb to fundraise.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Somrthing very weird has happened to your post TPO! At east on my compuer. But yes his daughter has been in hospital so he is probably very distracted at the moment x
TPO
🤠🏴
Sorry, tried to edit several times but the forum isn't working for me. Now it won't even load so had to dig out old phone!
What I was trying to say is he hasn't confirmed all his clinic dates yet so worth messaging via email or fb to fins out I'd there are any local with spaces.
His daughter wasn't well and he's been doing a lot of fund raising for the ward. He's putting on a demo 11 Feb so if that was local to anyone interested in his methods it would definitely be worth going to see him in the flesh.
It depends on the clinic organisers but usually spectators are allowed at £10 per head. A good way of seeing him work before committing to anything
chaps89
Well-Known Member
I’ve made my donation to the fundraising, the demo is only half an hour away so I’m looking forwards to it
it says to message them once you’ve donated for clinic ticket which I’ve done but if there little girl is poorly again it’s understandable that there’s a delay hearing back. I’m very much looking forwards to it based off of all these posts though!
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Mind. Blown.
Ok so this is going to be long. If this is not your cup of tea, then skip it. Otherwise make a cuppa and settle in.....
I keep a training jourmal and here are some typical extracts from it over the past year:
Jan: Too onwards in canter. Needing to half halt ++++
Feb: Lovely in trot, too forward in canter. Just running off. Urgh finding it so frustrating
March: Blowing through the bridle. Need to stay patient and calmly correct
May: Lottie still blowing through the bridle in canter
July: Nice work but feels like a fight
August: Canter still frustrating: running, falling in, leaning, not listening
Oct: Lovely work before we cantered, then strong, anticipating and rushing.
Nov: My arms ache!! She needs micro managing. I have to ride every stride.
I have had many lessons with various trainers who acknowledged the issues but seemed to think they were fairly normal or did not really have solutions. Comments have been:
- She is a typical mare
- She is clever and likes to take over so just patiently correct
- She comes out stroppy but you need to work through it
- She likes a firm contact. She lets you know that's what she needs
- She is keen which is great, but you need to just be really firm when she tries to take over
- You need to keep a firm hold and half halt repeatedly, she is not easy to ride so you just need to be a step ahead of her.
Etc etc
The overall message has been she is doing fine. She is improving. This is nornal for a keen forward horse.
I have tried many, many different techniques/strategies, from Warwick Schiller (circle when she gets strong and let her go straight when she is soft) to Buck Brannaman: Offer a good deal, then make her wish she'd taken it - ie ask her to slow with softness and then halt and back up whenever she blew through the bridle. Plus lots of transitions within the gaits and tonnes of work in walk and trot as she is 'not ready' for canter. Plus plenty of schooling exercises from dressage intructors.
Then Joe sat on her. And HE said
- she is pulling like a train
- She does not realise she can be soft
- She thinks 'I can't possible soften while cantering'
- She grabs hold and races off
- I did not ask for canter but she just decided to canter. That's not ok
- She drops a shoulder and falls in.
-The canter in her career has been very unproductive for her
- If you release she just speeds up
- Her canter is worse than my 3 year olds!
- This feels horrible, there is so much wrong with this
- She is fighting me in so many places
- She does not recognise the concept of the release
- It's fine in walk and trot but she has learned to canter like this and think this is right.
If I had to summarise my experience of cantering Lottie, words or phrases like 'fight, hard work, frustrating, same old same old, a battle, tense, lack of harmony' come to mind. So hearing Joe rip her canter to shreds was incredibly reassuring and validating. I hate how her canter has felt and I don't care if she looks ok from the ground because it feels a bl00dy awful way to ride.
But the key in what he said was that the root cause of ALL the issues is a fundamental lack of understanding on her part about what I want. She thinks canter = race off, lean, drop a shoulder, pull. All trainers (trad/classical and NH) pre Joe have said 'she knows what you want she is being a mare/awkward/stubborn/keen//rude' Which then leads me to think of her as disobedient, wilful, resistant. Joe made it clear she HAS NO IDEA HOW TO CANTER SOFTLY. So how can she possibly give me what I am asking for when she has no concept of how to do it - or that soft canter is even 'a thing'. No wonder we were mightily frustrated with each other.
That was 7 days ago.
Today the penny dropped and we cantered circles maintaining the same pace - no speeding up - with no rein contact at all. She softened quite quickly so I released and she stayed soft so I gave her the rein. And then just cantered round. It literally feels like a miracle. ONE WEEK. All she needed was someone to explain what we wanted in a way she could understand. And she is happy to comply because she is a willing, generous, sweet mare. Like most horses are.
The other remarkable thing is her whole demeanor has changed. Today she came straight over to me in the field. I rode her and then when I turned her out again she did not gallop up the hill like normal but stayed with me. She has NEVER done that. She blew in my hair, and just softly stood by me as a scratched her wither and rubbed between her eyes. And she only left me when I turned away first to leave. Her eyes are softer, she seems to be saying 'oh this is much nicer'. So, so happy.
Ok so this is going to be long. If this is not your cup of tea, then skip it. Otherwise make a cuppa and settle in.....
I keep a training jourmal and here are some typical extracts from it over the past year:
Jan: Too onwards in canter. Needing to half halt ++++
Feb: Lovely in trot, too forward in canter. Just running off. Urgh finding it so frustrating
March: Blowing through the bridle. Need to stay patient and calmly correct
May: Lottie still blowing through the bridle in canter
July: Nice work but feels like a fight
August: Canter still frustrating: running, falling in, leaning, not listening
Oct: Lovely work before we cantered, then strong, anticipating and rushing.
Nov: My arms ache!! She needs micro managing. I have to ride every stride.
I have had many lessons with various trainers who acknowledged the issues but seemed to think they were fairly normal or did not really have solutions. Comments have been:
- She is a typical mare
- She is clever and likes to take over so just patiently correct
- She comes out stroppy but you need to work through it
- She likes a firm contact. She lets you know that's what she needs
- She is keen which is great, but you need to just be really firm when she tries to take over
- You need to keep a firm hold and half halt repeatedly, she is not easy to ride so you just need to be a step ahead of her.
Etc etc
The overall message has been she is doing fine. She is improving. This is nornal for a keen forward horse.
I have tried many, many different techniques/strategies, from Warwick Schiller (circle when she gets strong and let her go straight when she is soft) to Buck Brannaman: Offer a good deal, then make her wish she'd taken it - ie ask her to slow with softness and then halt and back up whenever she blew through the bridle. Plus lots of transitions within the gaits and tonnes of work in walk and trot as she is 'not ready' for canter. Plus plenty of schooling exercises from dressage intructors.
Then Joe sat on her. And HE said
- she is pulling like a train
- She does not realise she can be soft
- She thinks 'I can't possible soften while cantering'
- She grabs hold and races off
- I did not ask for canter but she just decided to canter. That's not ok
- She drops a shoulder and falls in.
-The canter in her career has been very unproductive for her
- If you release she just speeds up
- Her canter is worse than my 3 year olds!
- This feels horrible, there is so much wrong with this
- She is fighting me in so many places
- She does not recognise the concept of the release
- It's fine in walk and trot but she has learned to canter like this and think this is right.
If I had to summarise my experience of cantering Lottie, words or phrases like 'fight, hard work, frustrating, same old same old, a battle, tense, lack of harmony' come to mind. So hearing Joe rip her canter to shreds was incredibly reassuring and validating. I hate how her canter has felt and I don't care if she looks ok from the ground because it feels a bl00dy awful way to ride.
But the key in what he said was that the root cause of ALL the issues is a fundamental lack of understanding on her part about what I want. She thinks canter = race off, lean, drop a shoulder, pull. All trainers (trad/classical and NH) pre Joe have said 'she knows what you want she is being a mare/awkward/stubborn/keen//rude' Which then leads me to think of her as disobedient, wilful, resistant. Joe made it clear she HAS NO IDEA HOW TO CANTER SOFTLY. So how can she possibly give me what I am asking for when she has no concept of how to do it - or that soft canter is even 'a thing'. No wonder we were mightily frustrated with each other.
That was 7 days ago.
Today the penny dropped and we cantered circles maintaining the same pace - no speeding up - with no rein contact at all. She softened quite quickly so I released and she stayed soft so I gave her the rein. And then just cantered round. It literally feels like a miracle. ONE WEEK. All she needed was someone to explain what we wanted in a way she could understand. And she is happy to comply because she is a willing, generous, sweet mare. Like most horses are.
The other remarkable thing is her whole demeanor has changed. Today she came straight over to me in the field. I rode her and then when I turned her out again she did not gallop up the hill like normal but stayed with me. She has NEVER done that. She blew in my hair, and just softly stood by me as a scratched her wither and rubbed between her eyes. And she only left me when I turned away first to leave. Her eyes are softer, she seems to be saying 'oh this is much nicer'. So, so happy.
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Season’s Bleatings
Well-Known Member
That’s amazing progress - well done. Do keep us updated!
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
Sounds amazing!
What tips did he give you to help her understand the correct way to go in canter?
Do you know if he ever comes Cambridgeshire way for clinics?
What tips did he give you to help her understand the correct way to go in canter?
Do you know if he ever comes Cambridgeshire way for clinics?
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Hi I try and explain in post 39, upthread. It seems to be working! She has improved day on day this week and today felt like a real breakthrough. x
TPO
🤠🏴
Yay ???
So, so happy for you!! In a very strange way also really chuffed that Joe has been the missing piece.
Much like your try to follow the teachings of Buck, Mark, Ray etc but I'm a poor reflection. It would be different if they were there with me but transferring theory and training from watching is so hard when I'm the one in the saddle.
I've seen Warwick work in the flesh (pre his "epiphany"; it was not pleasant viewing to saw the least) and various other trainers but there's just something about Joe. Not an aura or any of that (to me) mumbo jumbo stuff. He's just a horseman iykwim. He has such a good way about them in their presence, even just standing beside one while teaching someone else. Very much an advocate of theirs too.
So yeah, really pleased that it's clicking into place for you and Lottie; and that it's reflected outside of the canter work too.
Just imagine where you'll be a year from now given the progress in a week?
So, so happy for you!! In a very strange way also really chuffed that Joe has been the missing piece.
Much like your try to follow the teachings of Buck, Mark, Ray etc but I'm a poor reflection. It would be different if they were there with me but transferring theory and training from watching is so hard when I'm the one in the saddle.
I've seen Warwick work in the flesh (pre his "epiphany"; it was not pleasant viewing to saw the least) and various other trainers but there's just something about Joe. Not an aura or any of that (to me) mumbo jumbo stuff. He's just a horseman iykwim. He has such a good way about them in their presence, even just standing beside one while teaching someone else. Very much an advocate of theirs too.
So yeah, really pleased that it's clicking into place for you and Lottie; and that it's reflected outside of the canter work too.
Just imagine where you'll be a year from now given the progress in a week?
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I had an in hand lesson at AE's yard last weekend and Joe is quiet and understated with no puffery or "performance" or "don't you know who I am?" about him. All his communication with the horse is soft, as it is with humans. I don't mean he's a pushover, just that he knows exactly when to push and when not. He's not demanding subservience from the horse, he's just asking for quiet reactions to his requests and he gets them. He's a really likeable man. I'm very sorry to hear that his daughter is ill.
AE I find myself angry on your behalf and Lottie's that with all the training you've done with other trainers, nobody else has unlocked this for you. I'm so pleased for the pair of you, your photos are super, a horse really in self carriage, and the moment in the field is very, very special. I know because it's what Ludo does too.
.
AE I find myself angry on your behalf and Lottie's that with all the training you've done with other trainers, nobody else has unlocked this for you. I'm so pleased for the pair of you, your photos are super, a horse really in self carriage, and the moment in the field is very, very special. I know because it's what Ludo does too.
.
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