Judges scoring and confusion

FREESTYLER

FREESTYLER

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As the post says really, where you have three Judges have you ever had a real vast difference, I had 1st,2nd and 21st!!!!!!!ummmmmm...Is it that the Judges see different things? Have their preferences to horse types do you think?? How about the top two scores only added and the the least score dropped and ignored!!! Just really confusing when one Judge gives you a 6 and another 8? I know it has happened to people on here but how can we structure a better Judging sytem? 6 is ok, but 8 is good, so when you train you think you are doing well by one Judges opion of 8 for a specific movement, but then if another Judge gives you 6 then obviously correction in training is needed? Do you ignore the Judge who gave you the least score and continue with your training which shows must be correct by the other 2 Judges being similar scores? Do judges look at the score board and confer with the other judges when the results are in and discuss their vast differences of opinion??
 
The obvious thing i would say is that the judge at, for example, M can see and crookedness that the one at C and H can not. That could lead to a difference between and 6 and 8.

It is harder to see a free walk that is going away from your corner, than it is at the other corner, or at C. Again this could change the mark.

I think when you are being judged by list 1 and 2 judges they do know what the are looking for, it is most likely that the have different perspectives due to their placement.

I am ofcourse not denying that some judges prefer or dislike particular things...
 
I had a mixture of marks at Myerscough regionals. In the elem fs one judge had me on 75%+ on on 74%+ and one on 67%

The only thing I could think was that the judge who marked me down was sat looking down the longside and could see the slightest deviation from straightness which the other judges could not see so easily.

Have you posted this on the bd website as I think you will get responses from some bd judges there.
 
A LITTLE off the point.. I was watching Dancing on Ice (sad I know)
There was a massive difference of opinion in the scoring. After the break the showed an intense debate between a few of the judges who where arguing about why they gave the scores..

I guess that the judges may keep their opinions of each other to themselves, but probably do disagree with each others scoring.

Suppose thats the reason we have 3 judges is so that we can take into account differences in what they are looking for..and personal preferences for type of horse etc...

Only thing I can suggest is a printed score sheet where we have an average score for each movement rather than being allowed to see the differences in the judges marking. So we dont get annoyed about things like "what if this judge had been more generous" etc..

OR

They take the highest mark, and the lowest and give you a mark half way between the two, either for each movement or for the whole test?

All sounds like a lot of hard work though..

I had the same, I think 6th 9th and 17th? x
 
Wow Freestyler...there was a difference in the marking for yours!

As Mat says, there are 3 judges to average out differences of opinion
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I just looked at them today and must admit I was a little confused!! See what I mean???!!! Maybe she saw a bit of my red hair and took an instant dislike!! No, to be serious I see your point about crookedness etc and different views see different things etc and realise that a List 1 and List 2 they are very knowledgeable but ??????difference was quite a vast amount!! Again, not knocking any Judge I just want to know I am training in the correct fashion!!

Mat-b, ideas there may be good though,although longwinded. I know different people have preferences etc but surely to look at the horse and Judge it from a biomechanical aspect regardless of colour/breed etc...and look a the whole picture rider and horse...oh maybe I dont know what I am talking about but surely our tests of dressage show how our training is working and scales of training are being show.. ie, forward, contact, rhythmn, balance blah blah..??
 
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The obvious thing i would say is that the judge at, for example, M can see and crookedness that the one at C and H can not. That could lead to a difference between and 6 and 8have different perspectives due to their placement

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Yes I can see that but surely that would only be for certain movements ? That should in theory then be balanced out by the other judges scoring a little more harshly on the movements where they in turn can see any deviation from straightness ? I just think if all 3 are juding the same test, such a deviation in overall score is confusing. Unless of course the one judge marked everyone much more harshly, which just means they are interpreting the scoring system differently
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Hi Freestyler,

We had the same in the Ele open at Addington. One judge had daughter 12th, another 26th another 37th! 10% difference from 12th to 37th!

To be fair haven't seen sheet yet as we left before it ended but really a bit concerned as to what was so different. All the judges were good judges and I normally have no problem with marks but this was a big difference. I know FinnMcCoul was talking about crookedness but again this is not something that has been said to us before now. Hey ho, will just have to wait to see what the sheets say. Really disappointed though.
 
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Will be V interestng to hear what that judge said. 20 marks is a big difference!!

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20 marks is not a big difference in a test out of 290. If one judge gave a 6 for every movement and another gave a 7 the difference would be 29 marks overall and yet break it down movement by movement ie a 6 versus a 7 and it doesn't sound so bad.

Having said that I know some of the different marks given on Freestylers sheet and certainly can't see how they were given.

I have judged on juries a few times and for some reason there always seems to be at least one horse in a class that there is a biggish disagreement on. I do seem to recall that one horse in that Elementary had about 36 marks difference between two of the judges and that does seem a lot.
 
Well a friend of mine did a dressage to music a few months back and when she entered the arena the judge said to the writer 'I never give this rider good marks ,as she upset my daughter at PC camp' I kid you not, the writer was a friend of the rider and told her later. She complained to BD and they said ,they were not going to take it any further as that particular judge had upgraded and she would probably not come across her at lower level much.
I was also told at Addington ,that the judges were told to give the young riders an extra mark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I do not know how true that was ,as I never asked where they had heard that.Had anyone else heard it ? Seems strange ,if they did.
In the prelim ,I did post earlier that the judge at H and the judge at M seem to be looking for completely different things . I can understand when one judge is at B one at C and one at H that they all see different things but when they are all at the top they are not getting much of a different view,I think they all recognise when something is brilliant but at lower levels they all want something different
 
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20 marks is not a big difference in a test out of 290. If one judge gave a 6 for every movement and another gave a 7

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I agree, overall, but for one judge to give 6 instead of a 7, that would mean they saw something wrong, all the way through that the other judges did not. If that makes sense
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I think will be interesting to hear what the judge saw that the others did not.
 
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I was also told at Addington ,that the judges were told to give the young riders an extra mark!

when they are all at the top they are not getting much of a different view

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In the relatively small amount of judging i saw, this wasn't evident. Marked the same as the others.

You'd be surprised at the difference in views, being at H or M! I certainly was
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I agree with what Jlav says as if you tot it up 6 v 7, in all your movements it can equate to 20 points or more difference but when you are getting 6 v 8, then you start to question?? Where am I going wrong? Is my horse correct in his movement way of going or not??!!!!!!!

I do not wish to come across as a "bad sport" but I am sure that all of us want to know where we are cocking up etc and what we need to work on!!!!!!!! This is my main concern for all dressage riders taking a test..

I am a Newbie as such to dressage but want to know where I am going wrong and what to do........I obviously therefore go over my test sheets and want to see constructive critics ...I WANT TO LEARN!!! but when you get two conflicting marks you wonder which way to go??

I trust a few people and their comments, my trainer Dan Sheriff, David Hunt and Jlav being a few to mention, educated and enthusiastic and open to discussion about how we can advance dressage and the scoring of same so that riders do not get confused about where they are going and what they are doing wrong... at the end of the day (yes I know it is night!!) but we want a content horse, relaxed, willing to work and an overall picture of being at one with each other.....
 
I really don't believe this is true. Not from what I saw. In the noive restricted I saw a couple of lovely tests by young riders and they didn't get particularly high marks for them.
 
I did wonder where they heard this,wish I had asked.
If we do this sport I am afraid we have to accept different points of view, I think the best do win and some mark tension really low and others a slight mistake really low .Overall I expect they get it right.
 
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20 marks is not a big difference in a test out of 290. If one judge gave a 6 for every movement and another gave a 7

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I agree, overall, but for one judge to give 6 instead of a 7, that would mean they saw something wrong, all the way through that the other judges did not. If that makes sense
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I think will be interesting to hear what the judge saw that the others did not.

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It's not as simple as that though. You must have realised in your judge training that the difference between a 'big' 6 and a 'small' 7 is not very much and taking into account again that the judges are looking at the movements from different places it's easy to see how such a difference could occur. This is one reason that the discussions have been taking place on various forums about the introduction of half marks.

It will never be black and white and a mark of 6 and 7 both indicate the movement was not executed as well as it could have been. No matter how much knowledge we have and training we undergo one judges 6 will always be another judges 7. If you only look at the end scores, positions or percentages the differences will seem greater (ie 60% to 70% seems massive but again is only one mark per movement.)

Now if we start getting bigger differences ie 5 off one and 7/8 off another then to me there is a problem unless there is an obvious possible reason for the difference (like for example a medium canter down the long side away from a judge at M where that judge can only judge the straightness or lack of whereas a judge at B is perfectly positioned to see the length of stride and frame and the uphill balance or lack of.)
 
Ok, so here we go... regardless of whether we get into trouble ....!!!!!!! Again please I reiterate I am NOT A BAD SPORT OK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!just need to know where I am going wrong!!!!God help me!!!!!! Think I may have to turn to showjumping after this.........!!!!!!!!

Paces, 8,7,6??????

Elementary 48 ok

number 4 on sheet...8,7,6 !!
number 5 on sheet 8,7,6!
number 8 on sheet 8,7,5
number 11 on sheet 8,7,5

Paces 8,7,6........................

Can you see why I am confused????
 
I don't worry at all about the different marks ,it is the placings I worry about .Some judges are more generous than others but when one think a horse should be 1st and another thinks it should be 16th and the complete other way round for another horse ,I do worry and both judges are facing a long side so they see the straightness ,not of the same movement but they will be seeing it more than the C judge
 
SO FRUSTRATING!!!!!!!!

Probably best to put it down to experience, pick out a couple of things you can work on and aim for the Finals.

We will pick out the bits that would have made the most difference and work on those.
 
The ultimate problem with Dressage is that there is at every level an element of subjectivity. Even the classical schools vary in their approaches and interpretation of a correct end result. To some degree if we choose to compete in the sport we have to accept that. That doesn't mean that there's any excuse for downright bad, uneducated or biased judging. We all train hard and spend money to get to shows and everybody deserves to be honestly marked especially at a big event like the regionals.

As has been said before that's one reason why we have 3 judges there (and 5 at the big international shows) to even out as much as possible the discrepances.

One of the other issues with shows like the regionals is the sheer size of the classes. FMC said in another post that even as a writer for the marathon sessions she was struggling to keep being able to spell etc. Anyone who has judged will know how hard it can be to maintain your concentration for that period of time without making the odd mistake. It is so easy to blink at the wrong moment or be distracted for a second and miss a momentary jog in a walk that maybe the other 2 judges did see or a horse swapping behind for a stride at the end of a medium canter.

On the whole all the judges I know do their very best but we are all only human (well maybe I have my suspicions on that front with one or two) and therefore will always be having these discussions!!
 
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Ok, so here we go... regardless of whether we get into trouble ....!!!!!!! Again please I reiterate I am NOT A BAD SPORT OK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!just need to know where I am going wrong!!!!God help me!!!!!! Think I may have to turn to showjumping after this.........!!!!!!!!

Paces, 8,7,6??????

Elementary 48 ok

number 4 on sheet...8,7,6 !!
number 5 on sheet 8,7,6!
number 8 on sheet 8,7,5
number 11 on sheet 8,7,5

Paces 8,7,6........................

Can you see why I am confused????

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Need to know the position of the judges who gave each mark and the comments really. But as you and I have already discussed how any judge could give your horse 6 for his paces I don't know!!! What on earth were they giving everything else in the class 4's and 5's!!!

ETA when he's not going foward I could understand a 6 as he goes passagey in the trot (a big fault) but there was absolutely none of that in your E48. He was really swinging, elevated and forward throughout.
 
If its any consolation i went out the other weekend and Archie did a super test, i got straight 6s for everything and about 3words written on the whole sheet. He also got a 6 for his paces
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I then did the medium test and (which he had a big paddy mid-way through) and he got an 8 for his paces
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Judges do see different things from different angles tho - when i did the elementary petplan at wellington one judge had me on 63% and the other on 67% which was around a 16 mark difference. i spoke to the judge who had marked me lower (she was really nice and glad to speak to me to explain) and she said that he was always straight which she had seen but the other judge wouldnt have been able to see.

Its just one of those things i think, dressage judging is like this......
 
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I don't worry at all about the different marks ,it is the placings I worry about .Some judges are more generous than others but when one think a horse should be 1st and another thinks it should be 16th and the complete other way round for another horse ,I do worry

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I couldn't agree more. It is very confusing to think that three judges could place a combination 1st, 2nd and 21st. That just seems
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