Just 20 Cleveland Bay Foals this year

R

Rollin

Well-Known Member
Joined
10 March 2008
Messages
4,782
Visit site
It looks as if 2012 will finish up with just 20 pure bred Cleveland Bay foals registered in the mother stud book (that includes overseas entries)

When I joined the society in 2004 approx 70-75 foals were registered each year. What a tragedy. Whilst I appreciate that coverings are down for most stud books, I cannot help but compare with my other rare breed the Shagya.

In the mid-1980's there were just 6 Shagya Arabs in France. This year the French breeders bred 70 foals up from 50 last year. AFCAS the French association identified endurance as the route for the Shagya and this is the reason for the breed popularity.

The Cleveland Bay is also a superb horse for endurance and as an added bonus is up to weight.

I wish we could learn from the French and do more to promote the Cleveland Bay.
 
I always feel so guilty when I see these posts... guilty that I can't do any more at this moment in time to add to the numbers.

I love my purebred boy and I really wish the breed could get more recognition... so sad :(
 
Do you think, and as fans of the breed you will regard this as contentious, that it is in an inevitable decline given

1. They are a boring colour (I like bay myself BTW!)
2. They aren't spectacular at anything but more good all rounders
3. They can be difficult as a breed (IMO, from my limited experience).

I breed chickens and breeds like the rosecomb who are small, only come in black and not exceptional in any way - but very nice birds - are an endangered rare breed.

People now like flashy colours, exceptional aptitude for their given speciality and easy to do. No one seems to have all rounders like they had when I was a child, even children on ponies specialise at a very young age.

Have the old fashioned breeds come to an end? Most ISH now seem to be warmbloods rather than ID x tb which is more what I think they should be.
 
I personally think this is a great shame - I've always liked CB's since visiting the Royal Mews as a young girl. Interestingly I went to equine college in the 1970's and was surprised to learn even back then that the Cleveland Bay appeared to be going out of fashion. The Irish Draft and German & Dutch Warmbloods were becoming far more popular and sought after. Over thirty years on it's a real shame to see that trend obviously continued.
 
Clodagh said:
Do you think, and as fans of the breed you will regard this as contentious, that it is in an inevitable decline given

1. They are a boring colour (I like bay myself BTW!)
2. They aren't spectacular at anything but more good all rounders
3. They can be difficult as a breed (IMO, from my limited experience).

I breed chickens and breeds like the rosecomb who are small, only come in black and not exceptional in any way - but very nice birds - are an endangered rare breed.

People now like flashy colours, exceptional aptitude for their given speciality and easy to do. No one seems to have all rounders like they had when I was a child, even children on ponies specialise at a very young age.

Have the old fashioned breeds come to an end? Most ISH now seem to be warmbloods rather than ID x tb which is more what I think they should be.
Click to expand...

I have six pure breds and have not personally encountered the stubborness which is often referred to. I have two three year old fillies one lightly backed and the other not started yet - they are both amazingly powerful for their size but both have really gentle natures.

Backing. I have personally been involved in backing four pure breds, one a 17hh stallion. They all took to saddle and bridle as if they had been born wearing them and so far NEVER a buck, rear, kick or bite.

All rounders? You should look at my posts on the NEWS forum, lists of Cleveland Bays who have excelled at International and Olympic level in SJ, Eventing and Dressage. When you consider how rare the breed is it shows how the CB punches above its weight.

If you search the back pedigrees of most warmbloods you will find Cleveland Bays and Yorkshire Coach Horses. European breeders knew what they were doing when they purchased the best of British.

I would suggest that most of the riders on these forums, and certainly in France want 'all rounders' and not Olympic horses. These forums are also full of posts about difficulties riders encounter when they find themselves over horsed.

My husband was in the UK recently and every rider he met, on hearing he had CB's replied 'The best horse I ever had was a CB'.
 
When we talk about decline and compare to other breeds we should be talking in percentages. On other forums we can see a large reduction in the number of mares (of all breeds) being covered, compared to pre-recession. So a reduction in the number of foals should not be viewed as the breed going "out of fashion" etc. However, with such a small population it does have a large impact.
 
I was reading on a social network site the other day of someone who bred a pure-bred foal but the CBHS wouldn't let her register it. She offered to supply DNA but they wouldn't process her application. The general feeling (according to replies to her thread) was that the CBHS are a lot less than helpful.

It may be correct that only 20 have been registered but I suspect there have been more than 20 bred
 
millitiger said:
If they are easy and talented, why is the breed in such decline?

Genuine question as surely they should be thriving?
Click to expand...

There comes a certain point in population decline where those buying horses are unlikely to have one in easy viewing distance. Also prices arent always quoted in ads and so people are unlikely to enquire.

When you are looking at ads and there are 3o warmbloods, 20 ISHs and no CBs in your area, you are likely to be suited by one of the former before you ever search out the latter.

I think our native breeds should be better supported nationally - In Austria the state runs the main Haflinger stud - why not the same for the Suffolk Punch and the Cleveland Bay in the UK? After all, both are rarer than the Giant Panda!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Clippy said:
I was reading on a social network site the other day of someone who bred a pure-bred foal but the CBHS wouldn't let her register it. She offered to supply DNA but they wouldn't process her application. The general feeling (according to replies to her thread) was that the CBHS are a lot less than helpful.

It may be correct that only 20 have been registered but I suspect there have been more than 20 bred
Click to expand...

I would love to know more. You can PM me if you like?

I cannot imagine any situation where CBHS would refuse to register a pure bred foal, with DNA provided. Unless the foal is not 100% Cleveland Bay - if you look at the Debate in News we do have rules with regard to what is called the Grading Register.

Were the parents registered with CBHS? Was the stallion 'approved'? Was a covering certificate provided?

To return to France - I know IFCE will not issue Cheval de Race passports for progeny of non graded stallions only an Origin Known passport. Breeders know then that these foals are although 'pedigree' are not the progeny of stallions who have passed a rigorous licensing process.

We need to be extra cautious when registering in a small stud book. If for example a colt had a 'defect' that might be handed down, should the progeny be registered and pass on genes which might be detrimental to the breed as a whole? This is why we have an inspection and registration process for stallions.
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
There comes a certain point in population decline where those buying horses are unlikely to have one in easy viewing distance. Also prices arent always quoted in ads and so people are unlikely to enquire.

When you are looking at ads and there are 3o warmbloods, 20 ISHs and no CBs in your area, you are likely to be suited by one of the former before you ever search out the latter.

I think our native breeds should be better supported nationally - In Austria the state runs the main Haflinger stud - why not the same for the Suffolk Punch and the Cleveland Bay in the UK? After all, both are rarer than the Giant Panda!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

I am in total agreement with you. When numbers of Merens a small black French native pony, reached critically low numbers in the 1960's France put a huge amount of effort into preserving the breed, with great success.

It is the difference between having a Ministry of Agriculture whose players change* and a National Stud.

In France I talk to just one person and have done since 2006, a world class Arabian Judge; judge of SF Championships in France; Director of IFCE.

*At DEFRA I have dealt with 6 people in 7 years and each time they 'pass the parcel' we start all over again. Staff move around so it can be horses today and pigs tomorrow.
 
Clippy and Rollin. The registration problem is because there was no covering certificate. There are times when a standard reply from an office does not fit the situation. I am sure it will all be resolved.
 
Clippy I note your comments above: -

“I was reading on a social network site the other day of someone who bred a pure-bred foal but the CBHS wouldn't let her register it. She offered to supply DNA but they wouldn't process her application. The general feeling (according to replies to her thread) was that the CBHS are a lot less than helpful.

It may be correct that only 20 have been registered but I suspect there have been more than 20 bred? “

What evidence do you have to support your claim that there have been more than 20 pure foals bred? Have you been told about or know personally about foals that have not been registered and if so why they have not been given that there are so few of them at present?

I have registered pure Cleveland Bay foals with the CBHS and have always found that the people that I have dealt with to do so have been very helpful.

The CBHS is a Charity registered with the Charity Commission for England and Wales, the Cleveland Bay breed’s Stud Book holder approved by Defra and a Company Limited by Guarantee. As such it has to comply with the minimum standards and regulations that are imposed upon it by UK/EEC legislation in respect to dealing with matters like entering horses into it’s Stud Book. The Society doesn’t have the degree of discretion that some people assume that it has in dealing with issues like foal registrations if it wants to maintain it’s status as an approved Stud Book holder and Passport Issuing Body. Sometimes it is incorrectly blamed when it has to say no to people where it has no other choice in the matter.

The EEC decision of 10 January 1996, 96/78/EC lays down the criteria for entry and registration of equidae in stud-books for breeding purposes. The relevant parts are as follows: -

“ Article 1.
1.To qualify for entry in the main section of the studbook of its breed registered equidae must:
- be descended from parents entered in the main section of a stud-book of that same breed and have a pedigree established in accordance with the rules of that stud-book,
- be identified as foal at foot according to the rules of that stud-book, which at least should require the covering certificate.
2. In derogation from the first indent of paragraph 1, an animal can be entered in the main section to take part in a cross breeding programme approved by the organization or association according to the rules of that stud-book. The cross breeding programme should mention the breeds which are allowed to take part.
Article 2.
1.The main section of a stud-book may be divided in conformity with No 3 (b), fifth indent, of the Annex of Commission Decision 92/353/EEC (2) laying down the criteria for the approval or recognition of organizations and associations which maintain or establish stud-books for registered equidae into several classes according to the animals' merits. Only equidae meeting the criteria laid down in Article 1 may be entered in one of those classes.
2. Where a stud-book contains several classes in the main section, an animal from another stud-book shall be entered in the class of the stud-book whose criteria it meets.
Article 3.
1. An organization or association keeping a stud-book may decide that an animal, which does not meet the criteria laid down in Article 1, may be entered in a supplementary section of that stud-book. The animal must meet the following requirements:
- be identified in accordance with the stud-book rules,
- be judged to conform to the breed standard,
- have a minimum performance as laid down in the stud-book rules.
2. The organization or association should fix the rules allowing progeny of such animals to enter the main section.
Article 4. This Decision is addressed to the Member States. Done at Brussels, 10 January 1996. For the Commission. Franz FISCHLER. Member of the Commission. (1) OJ No L 224, 18. 8. 1990, p. 55. (2) OJ No L 192, 11. 7. 1992, p. 63. EEC 8220. “

You will note that under Article 1.1. that it qualify for entry in the main section of the studbook of its breed registered equidae must:- “- be identified as foal at foot according to the rules of that stud-book, which at least should require the covering certificate.”

The CBHS has made available document on it’s website and elsewhere to explain what is required to register a pure foal with it. The foal registration form and explanation notes make clear that: -

“ REGISTRATION FEES AND CONDITIONS
1 Entry fees must accompany this form - £20 until December 31st in the year of birth or within 6 months of the birth; thereafter it is £25 (Members). £60 or (£70 for late registrations) (Non-members).
2 The cost of the DNA test is £47.40 (£39.50 + VAT).
Please also include with this form.
3 The official Society Covering Certificate or AI documentation must accompany this form.
4 If white or other mismarking is indicated below please enclose a good colour photograph of it.
5 All applications must be accompanied by at least 4 good colour photographs showing each side, the back and the front of the horse (this is in addition to any needed in No 4 above).
6 Please enclose the completed ID chart.”

I note that Adina states above that you bred the foal and that you say that “The registration problem is because there was no covering certificate. There are times when a standard reply from an office does not fit the situation. I am sure it will all be resolved.”

Were you not given a covering certificate by the stallion owner when your mares was covered and if you were not given one why was that?

Was it because the stallion in question was not registered or licenced for pure breeding purposes by the CBHS?

I hope that your problem is resolved successfully.
 
Last edited:
Adina said:
Clippy and Rollin. The registration problem is because there was no covering certificate. There are times when a standard reply from an office does not fit the situation. I am sure it will all be resolved.
Click to expand...

Adina,

Thank you for your reply. I know nothing of the foal in question, just posted a list of reasons why there might be a problem.

At the risk of being boring, here is another example of France supporting breeders.

The system here is that ALL coverings must be notified on line to IFCE who hold the covering certificates for the whole of France.* If mare owners fail to pay stallion owners for the services of said stallion, then IFCE will not issue a passport till the debt is settled. I approve.

*This does of course include those for my CB stallion.
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
There comes a certain point in population decline where those buying horses are unlikely to have one in easy viewing distance. Also prices arent always quoted in ads and so people are unlikely to enquire.

When you are looking at ads and there are 3o warmbloods, 20 ISHs and no CBs in your area, you are likely to be suited by one of the former before you ever search out the latter.

I think our native breeds should be better supported nationally - In Austria the state runs the main Haflinger stud - why not the same for the Suffolk Punch and the Cleveland Bay in the UK? After all, both are rarer than the Giant Panda!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

If they were so talented and easy though, how did the situation come about that people started buying warmbloods etc instead of CBs? Have they ever been really mainstream and popular for the average rider in the same way as the ISH, full tb and others?

I struggle to see how a breed that is easy to ride and talented enough to go up the grades with an amateur would be ignored and pushed into decline for no reason?

You are right about the situation at the moment though; people aren't going to search them out when there are so many other types of horse more readily available.
 
Hello Adina,

You say above: -

“JP I have not said who bred the foal. Not sure what you are trying to say, or perhaps meaning was lost in the edit.”

I thought that what I meant was quite clear but obviously not so I will explain again.

Put simply, like all other Defra approved horse breed stud book holders and passport issuing organisations the CBHS as the Cleveland Bay horse Stud Book holder has to comply with the prevailing UK/EEC legislation when individuals present pure Cleveland Bay foals to be registered by it in it’s stud book.

It doesn’t always have the degree of discretion to turn a blind eye to issues that fall short of those minimum standards that some people appear to think that it has.

Some people wrongly blame it because their personal needs have not been met when the blame lies elsewhere. When these issues are then discussed on social media sites without the full facts being outlined to the audience then the good reputation of the Society is damaged because some will think that what they have been told is totally accurate or there is no smoke without a fire.

The Society is required to inspect and approve any horse for breeding purposes before it grants them a breeding licence. It is expected to turn down any horses that fail its inspection / vet process.

I am aware about one stallion whose present owner has advertised its services at a discounted rate to pure Cleveland Bay mare owners for pure breeding purposes on their own and on other internet sites despite the fact that they know that it has failed the Society’s stallion inspection licencing process, including the vets examination part of it and has therefore not been granted a stallion licence or issued with covering certificates for it. If mare owners are not aware about this situation before they decide to use it and expect that they will be able to register the resulting foals with the CBHS as a pure Cleveland Bays then no doubt the Society will be blamed for them not being able to do so when the stallion owner and the mare owner should take responsibility for that situation themselves instead.

I suggest that mare owners ask stallion owners to show them the stallions CBHS pure Cleveland Bay breeding licence before they use it if they plan to register the resulting foal in its stud book. They should also ask the stallion owner to give them a covering certificate when the mare is covered or at least no later than the mare is confirmed to be in foal so that should prevent situations like this one from arising. No doubt they will have paid the stallion owner to use the stallion by then.
 
Last edited:
millitiger said:
If they were so talented and easy though, how did the situation come about that people started buying warmbloods etc instead of CBs? Have they ever been really mainstream and popular for the average rider in the same way as the ISH, full tb and others?

I struggle to see how a breed that is easy to ride and talented enough to go up the grades with an amateur would be ignored and pushed into decline for no reason?

You are right about the situation at the moment though; people aren't going to search them out when there are so many other types of horse more readily available.
Click to expand...

The majority of warmbloods originate from and are bred in EU countries where large amounts of money are invested in State run studs and breeders are given financial incentives to produce and compete their horses. The Cleveland Bay stallion Manningford Hermes was purchased by a state run stud in Holland, one of his stallion grandsons is a Dressage International.

The only financial support available to the Cleveland Bay comes via the HBLB grant and that just about covers fees for DNA and passport. Britain does not have a state run National Stud.

The most successful of all British Breeds is the TB but for the best the financial rewards are enormous.
 
Hello milltiger.

Like all other breeds and types of horses pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses contain within their overall population examples of exceptional, very good good, bad and some indifferent animals. There is nothing unusual about that.

What is different in respect to the pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horse breed is that there are very few of them in existence on a global basis today but despite that fact they have and do punch well above their weight.

They are listed by the Rare Breed Survival Trust in their Watch list as being Critical 1 as a breed which means that they are critically endangered and there are less than 300 registered breeding females in the overall population.

They are a unique native British breed of horse. I think that they are worthy of preserving as such for future generations to enjoy. Fashions change continually and what is fashionable today may well not be tomorrow. If we lose the Cleveland Bay as a British breed of horse then we loose them forever and with them goes part of the heritage of the UK.

The breed numbers have been low right from the time that the Cleveland Bay horse Society was founded back in 1884. It was set up to try to preserve and promote them.

The numbers and popularity of the breed has waned over the course of their history for a variety of reasons including for example the fact that pure mares were often crossed with thoroughbred stallions to produce fashionable and profitable coach horses of choice at the beginning of the Society’s existence, the improvements in roads and along with that the introduction of other forms of transport, the mechanizations of agriculture with the introduction of the tractor, losses arising from them being used as gun carriage horses etc in the first world war, part bred breeding to produce hunters and riding horses in more recent times resulting in fewer pure horses being produced along with the fact that they are a large late maturing breed that has sometimes been pushed on too fast too early on in young horses lives with the result that some were termed to be stubborn when the reality was that they were being inappropriately handled by people who were treating them as they would faster maturing thorough bred type animals. There are other reasons as well but they have not always been effectively promoted. Indeed a number of part bred horses that were successful at national and international levels were not promoted as being Cleveland Bay horses because some of their owners feared that the negative reputation that the breed had in some quarters as being stubborn would proceed them and affect sales etc.

There are examples of successful part bred Cleveland Bay horses today such as Spring Pascal, in international dressage who is a 50% Cleveland Bay and Baydale Venus who was a recent HOYS Hack of the Year Winner to name two.

At the other end of the spectrum I am aware of a pure Cleveland Bay mare that is an RDA driving horse and another one that is used for vaulting. To be effective at either ends of this spectrum the horses need to have trainable reliable temperaments and not be stubborn.

With the breed numbers as low and scattered as they are many people have never come across a pure Cleveland Bay horse and are also not aware that some of the successful part bred horses out being competed, hunted, shown, driven or ridden are indeed part Cleveland Bays but usually seem to have heard from a friend of a friend of a friend that the breed tends to be difficult to deal with when that couldn’t be further from the truth from my experience of dealing with them.
 
John,

When people tell me the Cleveland is a difficult horse, I ask how many pure breds they have owned - usually none.

Had I listened to these arguments we would never have purchased our first pure bred mare for my 50+ novice rider husband. She has never given him a moment of anxiety and was a star in the show ring.
 
I had a pure bred CB gelding on loan for a couple of years. He was stunningly beautiful and greatly admired but he was stubborn, unsafe out hacking and generally a bit of an ignorant pig! It didn't stop me riding him out or competing him but it was a bit of a battle at times.

I will say that a fair bit of the ignorance was down to his silly owner never taking charge of him. He was a solid, big boy who knew he could throw his weight around to get away with things. Didn't work with me though. Usual story ending - I sorted a lot of his issues over the couple of years I had him (but not the snotty temperament, obviously!) so she sold him...
 
Hedgewitch13 said:
I had a pure bred CB gelding on loan for a couple of years. He was stunningly beautiful and greatly admired but he was stubborn, unsafe out hacking and generally a bit of an ignorant pig! It didn't stop me riding him out or competing him but it was a bit of a battle at times.

I will say that a fair bit of the ignorance was down to his silly owner never taking charge of him. He was a solid, big boy who knew he could throw his weight around to get away with things. Didn't work with me though. Usual story ending - I sorted a lot of his issues over the couple of years I had him (but not the snotty temperament, obviously!) so she sold him...
Click to expand...

Nature or nurture? I have one three year old filly who was a real handfull at 2 years old, not nasty just very strong and bargey - I put her in a stallion chain.

She was a delight to back.
 
People should also look at longevity in the CB. Ours is still hunting twice a week aged 22. His full sister is a similar age and still in work. People cannot believe his age when we tell them as the vet thought he was 10. He has never been lame, sick or sorry. He is only part CB and we have had a few as they have been so reliable. They have all known their own minds but have wanted to work with you. None of them have ever bucked or reared.
They have been great amateur horses but not world beaters.
 
LEC said:
People should also look at longevity in the CB. Ours is still hunting twice a week aged 22. His full sister is a similar age and still in work. People cannot believe his age when we tell them as the vet thought he was 10. He has never been lame, sick or sorry. He is only part CB and we have had a few as they have been so reliable. They have all known their own minds but have wanted to work with you. None of them have ever bucked or reared.
They have been great amateur horses but not world beaters.
Click to expand...

I am interested to read your post. I bought my first horse in 1995, aged 15, for Ride and Drive. He is a fantastic driving horse who has starred in many films and a number of TV series. He is the reason for my interest in the breed as I am sure he is a part bred.

I still hack him and use him for lead rein work with young horses. If he sees in the New Year, he will be 34 and like yourself, we have never had a vet bill for him. Oh and he jumps like a stag.

Do you know the names on the CB side of your horse's pedigree?
 
What an interesting pedigree and distinguished.

Someone else on this forum also had a horse by Knaresborough Sir Robert, which was highly thought of - however, I could not find that horse in our stud book. I think a few were not registered.

You might be interested to see this pedigree also

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=...x=&color=&dog_breed=any&birthyear=&birthland=

Spring Pascall is the top performing horse in the UK junior dressage team - Spring Fever is his grandam also. I know dressage judges have commented on his trainability and relationship with is young rider.

To return to the CB temperament - Nijinksy was known for his difficult temperament, Piggot commented on it. No doubt if your horse was a 'problem' his TB origins would be ignored and the Cleveland Bay blamed.
 
Knaresborough Warlock oh yes my boss used to own him, was breeding Cb pure breds for a while and sold them to the police but then we got an Irish Draught Stallion and they saw his foals and liked them better. So Warrior was sold. It's was a question of money.
 
Kayristmas said:
Knaresborough Warlock oh yes my boss used to own him, was breeding Cb pure breds for a while and sold them to the police but then we got an Irish Draught Stallion and they saw his foals and liked them better. So Warrior was sold. It's was a question of money.
Click to expand...

Some of the older CB breeders tell me that once upon a time the Police would have bought every CB they could, there were just never enough.

I used to know the IPLH (now WHW) officer in Scotland, he was ex Strathclyde mounted police and rode a CB mare. He told me the only thing she did not like was the mechanised street sweeper, so if he spotted one he would just turn down a side street.
 
Spring Pascall is notoriously tricky as a horse. Very very hot and will often explode when worried. I think they have done very well to get him where he is. Trainable and rideable are maybe different?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top