Just how badly are we feeding our horses?
- Thread starter marmalade76
- Start date
deicinmerlyn
Well-Known Member
Wow - My favourite subject
We or some people are feeding their horses badly but sadly they don't realise it or refuse to accept it. The advertising surounding all the comercial foods brainwash people into believing that if they feed this feed their horse will turn into a n Olympic level horse overnight.
Commercial feeds are - any feed sold in a bag with a manufacturers name on it. Anything that contains a mixture of different food stuffs, whether it be a simple pony cube to a special high class performance horse mix.
We have more metabolic disease than ever known before - laminitis in epidemic proportions - to horses especially and ponies that would normally never suffer from it. Horses with Insulin resistance, Cushings by the dozen, head flickers, so many that they now have gear manufactured especially for them.
Why are we seeing these problems? - we rarely ever used to. What has changed? The only thing is Commercially prepared feeds. We are seeing it now in NZ and we've only had the highly prepared foods for about 20 years or so. When I first arrived in NZ they had Horse & Pony cubes that was it.
Having worked in the equine industry for 40+ years both in UK and in NZ and been exposed to hundreds of horses and ponies from all disciplines and all age groups. From TB yearlings being prepared fro the races, to elderly riding school horses and ponnies. In the yards where the horses were fed a traditional diet - including my own riding school of 32 horses and ponies there were no problems - no head shakers, no lamanitic horses or ponies, none with insulin related problems.
In instances where there have been problems all the horses and ponies had been on commercially prepared foods.
Horse 1 Had been at Pony CLub Camp when I first met it - a lovely genuine teenagers horse, rider as happy as can be. I rode the horse and loved it, honest as. A few months later the rider contacted me - the horse now unmanageable, head shy, eratic and on commercially prepared feeds - the early sort. Horse came to me to live, put back onto traditional feeds and within days was back to its old self.
Horse 2 was at a big stud/training centre in UK - a horse with a really itchy skin condition. It was being fed an early premixed feed - the vet told the owner - one of the working students to stop feeding the commercial mix and put the horse back on a traditional feed. Within days the horse improved and after a week or two the skin problem had gone.
Pony 3 An elderly pony come to retire at the riding school from the showing scene in NZ - aged 18, had a history of laminitis so was cared for accordingly, went down with what was believed to be laminitis in mid winter. Vet took bloods and came back with the diagnosis of Pituitary adenoma now known as Cushings this was 19years ago.
Pony 4 Ditto another pony who started retaining her coat and showing slight lameness. Another Cushings, another that had been on commercial feeds for several years.
Horse 5 A young horse that came out of racing with a head flick, trainer fed soley prepared feeds, stopped within weeks after being put on a traditional diet.
Horse 6 became a head flicker at aged 8 - owner had put horse on commercial feeds. Sadly sold on before I could convince her to put the horse back on to traditional feeds.
One of the main ingredients that I believe is causing the problems is SOY - the miracle food! is now being found to be the cause of many metabolic problems in humans - is there any reason why it could not be the cause of the problems we are finding in horses now.
Google SOY negatives and read what comes up - makes really interesting reading
http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/soy.htm
http://thyroid.about.com/cs/soyinfo/a/soy.htm
And finally - why are so many people feeding their horses/ponies hard feed anyway. Because the feed manufactures have brainwashed them into believing that they MUST feed their horse/pony.
Going back to the 60's when I first leant to ride - we didn't feed our ponies and later horses unless stabled or possibly in winter if hay wasn't enough. My New Forest used to be ridden all day at the weekends - off grass and was fit and healthy - she lived well into her 20's.
We didn't smother them in rugs either. Only if traced clipped and living out did they get rugs. We didn't strip graze - our ponies ran out on a big paddock where they regularly exercised themselves. The only horses that got fed soaked hay were the ones with lung problems.
Horses and ponies have not changed over the thousands of years they have been in existance - but what has happened is that we have begun to ignore what our ancestors had discovered and proven that horses work very well fed on grass, oats, barley, hay and more recently sugarbeet. Which we fed to everything - ponies and all the sort with mollases on it. No other was available.
My thoughts are if your horse is having metabolic or behavioural problems - stop feeding commercially prepared foods - even if it says it is for a horse with the particular problem - stop hard feed altogether or feed traditional feeds and work acordingly. Allow th ehorse access to a large area preferably in a herd situation - nothing like peer pressure to go for a hoon around the paddock.
Have to agree with above. It is also my experience. Far too many ponies and horses are fed far too much of the stuff they don't NEED!
samlovesprilly
Well-Known Member
This might sound like a bit of a stupid question but i'm genuinely really interested in this topic! Basically wanted to know what you class as traditional feeds?
Is it basically 'straight' feeds, not mixes or nuts?
I feed my horse processed horse feeds, basically as its all I have ever known and I know of no body or really any feed shop who provide alternatives to mixes. However, after reading everyones posts, it does seem obvious that feeding these processed feeds cannot be doing our horses, who are designed to live off a natural diet of forage, any good.
But how do we know what to feed our horses the 'tradtitional way' if (like me) all we have known is feeding food from a bag that we dont even know what it contains? As obviously I dont want to feed unnecessarily or OD on things, just ensure my horse recieves everything she needs to stay healthy!
SUCH an interesting topic!!!
Dont understand how people mollycoddle their horses so much, with the horses interests in mind, but sometimes all these advancements do them more harm than good!
Is it basically 'straight' feeds, not mixes or nuts?
I feed my horse processed horse feeds, basically as its all I have ever known and I know of no body or really any feed shop who provide alternatives to mixes. However, after reading everyones posts, it does seem obvious that feeding these processed feeds cannot be doing our horses, who are designed to live off a natural diet of forage, any good.
But how do we know what to feed our horses the 'tradtitional way' if (like me) all we have known is feeding food from a bag that we dont even know what it contains? As obviously I dont want to feed unnecessarily or OD on things, just ensure my horse recieves everything she needs to stay healthy!
SUCH an interesting topic!!!
Dont understand how people mollycoddle their horses so much, with the horses interests in mind, but sometimes all these advancements do them more harm than good!
Mike007
Well-Known Member
Its not about mollycoddling,its about fear, we all love our delinquent horses to bits .We are terrified of doing wrong by them. As a result we are easy prey for the "snake oil salesmen" and we have this naieve belief. They wouldnt let them sell the stuff if it didnt work or worse was harmfull. DREAM ON!!!!! Take Dengie for example . Back in the day, when I ran a feed company. We used to buy Dried grass pellets and dried lucerne pellets from a little company in the midle of nowhere,called Dengie crop driers.We sold this as a straight to local stables. When the cost of fuel for drying soared ,a lot of crop driers went out of business. Dengie survived by switching to a market loaded with "mug punters". This is not to say that the stuff isnt good,but you have to understand that what you are really paying for is in fact OIL,not feed!They will tell you that what they put in is because it is the best for the horse,in truth it is because that is what they produce and need a market for. There are a lot of cheaper alternatives.
Zuzan
Well-Known Member
there are some good books out there one of them being "the Truth About Feeding Your Horse"
There are some basic principles.. grains and linseed are high in phosphorus and need to be have this "balanced" with a high Calcium feed such as forage / beet.
Chaff / Chop means your horse has to chew.. and doesn't bolt its feed and get choke..
Cereals have a high glyceamic index .. not good.. linseed and oily feeds are slow burn.. linseed also provides the best source of Vegetarian Omega 3 oils (yes horses need these too)
a lot of grazing in the UK is over "fertilized" with Nitrogen compounds.. which aren't good for equines.. horses or ponies.
There is no such thing as an off the shelf balancer .. a balancer needs to balance minerals in the grazing, hay and forage as well as the "feed".
You can get your grazing and hay analysed to give you a better idea of what your horse is not getting or getting too much of.
Horses are vegetarians ... it is pretty un-natural to give them products that are not vegetarian.
Equines are hindgut fermenters.. they only need fibre to keep warm.
There are some basic principles.. grains and linseed are high in phosphorus and need to be have this "balanced" with a high Calcium feed such as forage / beet.
Chaff / Chop means your horse has to chew.. and doesn't bolt its feed and get choke..
Cereals have a high glyceamic index .. not good.. linseed and oily feeds are slow burn.. linseed also provides the best source of Vegetarian Omega 3 oils (yes horses need these too)
a lot of grazing in the UK is over "fertilized" with Nitrogen compounds.. which aren't good for equines.. horses or ponies.
There is no such thing as an off the shelf balancer .. a balancer needs to balance minerals in the grazing, hay and forage as well as the "feed".
You can get your grazing and hay analysed to give you a better idea of what your horse is not getting or getting too much of.
Horses are vegetarians ... it is pretty un-natural to give them products that are not vegetarian.
Equines are hindgut fermenters.. they only need fibre to keep warm.
marmalade76
Well-Known Member
Where can I find cheaper alternatives to Alfa-a and Hifi, Mi*e? Countrywide do their own brand stuff, but as they only put 15*g in a sac* aginst Dengie's 20, it doesn't wor* out any cheaper.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Years ago, we bought a young mare who had been ill-treated and then bought back by the breeder, who wanted to get weight back on her asap. She threw everything she could think of down the mare- this was when compound feed were just becoming 'the thing'. The poor mare went on to develop allergies to just about everything. We could only feed her on hay, grass, alfalfa and unmollassed beet. Because of this and my own food sensitivities,we are very careful about what we feed our horses and manage to keep a wide range of ages and sizes fit and well on grassnuts, dried grass, haylage and unmollassed beet in varying proportions as necessary (although I have to admit to feeding various supplements to different horses). I don't think you can get much 'straighter' than this!
One of my favourite rants is the demand created by big companies' marketing, backed up by the equine press, which is directed at novice owners. This is particularly evident, IMO, in the feed and rug markets. Over-feeding and over-rugging create unhealthy horses.
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
This is the list of ingredients from a NZ well known feed company low energy feed
Ingredients selected from:
Apple flavour If it tastes good why add this? Is it real apple or a synthetic apple flavour
broll Broll is a coarse product obtained whilst milling wheat flour and is a mixture of bran and pollard. We know from our ancestors that wheat products are not good for our horses - basically a waste product left from flour milling with no commercial use - until horse feed manufacturers caught on.
copra is the dried meat, or kernel, of the coconut. Copra meal is used as fodder for horses and cattle. Its high oil levels and protein are fattening for stock. The protein in copra meal has been heat treated and provides a source of high quality protein for cattle, sheep and deer, because it does not break down in the rumen. Copra has been classed as a dangerous good due to its spontaneously combustive nature. It is identified as a Division 4.2 substance. Can also contain damaging fungal spores if not dried correctly.
, KER vitamin and mineral premix - Made by Kentucky Equine Research A scientifically formulated, fully fortified feed balancer pellet, designed for each stage of your horse's life. KER ALL PHASE is a unique combination of essential amino acids, vitamins, organic minerals, antioxidants, protein and yeast culture in a convenient low-dose pellet. KER ALL PHASE is a potent source of essential nutrients that may be used to perfectly complement horses on diets based on roughage and pasture as well as straight grains, or those with reduced calorie requirements. ,
Limestone But we've already had this added in the KER Mineral mix
Lucerne Ground up to help bind all the ingredients
Magnesium oxide, or magnesia, is a white solid mineral that occurs naturally as periclase and is a source of magnesium (see also oxide) also added to Portland cement. Thhought this was already in the KER mix
molasses, Sugar beet molasses
Molasses coming from sugar beet is different from sugar cane molasses. Only the syrup left from the final crystallization stage is called molasses; intermediate syrups are referred to as high green and low green, and these are recycled within the crystallization plant to maximize extraction. Beet molasses is about 50% sugar by dry weight, predominantly sucrose, but also contains significant amounts of glucose and fructose. Beet molasses is limited in biotin (Vitamin H or B7) for cell growth; hence, it may need to be supplemented with a biotin source. The nonsugar content includes many salts, such as calcium, potassium, oxalate, and chloride. It also contains the compounds betaine and the trisaccharide raffinose. These are either as a result of concentration from the original plant material or as a result of chemicals used in the processing, and make it unpalatable to humans. Hence it is mainly used as an additive to animal feed (called "molassed sugar beet feed") or as a fermentation feedstock.[citation needed]
It is possible to extract additional sugar from beet molasses through a process known as molasses desugarisation. This technique exploits industrial-scale chromatography to separate sucrose from nonsugar components. The technique is economically viable in trade-protected areas, where the price of sugar is supported above the world market price. As such, it is practiced in the U.S.[4] and parts of Europe. Molasses is also used for yeast production.
mould inhibitor Scary stuff! I'll leave you to read the literature http://www.vitusa.com/en/products/animal_nutrition/vituprop.pdf
natural vitamin E a group of fat-soluble compounds that include both tocopherols and tocotrienols.There are many different forms of vitamin E, of which γ-tocopherol is the most common γ-Tocopherol can be found in corn oil, soybean oil.
organic chromium Organic chromium is an important stimulant to insulin. Insulin is a vital hormone. It encourages the tissues in our body to rapidly consume the glucose from the blood after we take every meal. Thus insulin controls the sugar in the blood.
palm kernel meal Palm kernel cake are the leftovers after kernel oil is pressed out from the nut in the palm fruit. Palm kernel cake is commonly used as animal feed for dairy cattle because of its high protein content. If not, it is usually treated as biomass to fuel up boilers to generate electricity for use at palm oil mills and surrounding villages
salt Very important
soya meal, soya oil For human consumption, soybeans must be cooked with "wet" heat in order to destroy the trypsin inhibitors (serine protease inhibitors). Raw soybeans, including the immature green form, are toxic to humans, swine, chickens, in fact, all monogastric animals. See also this link http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/soy.htm
sugar beet pulp Lots of info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_beet I've used Mollased sugarbeet for decades and I've never had problems with it - it was fed to all the school ponies with no adverse or hyper behaviour. Its a great source of fibre, contains only minimal sugars - re introduced by a spray of mollasses and contains high levels of calcium as a result of processing methods.
Zeolites are widely used in industry for water purification, as catalysts, and in nuclear reprocessing. Their biggest use is in the production of laundry detergents. They are also used in medicine and in agriculture. Zeolites are widely used as ion-exchange beds in domestic and commercial water purification, softening, and other applications. In chemistry, zeolites are used to separate molecules (only molecules of certain sizes and shapes can pass through), as traps for molecules so they can be analyzed. Zeolites have the potential of providing precise and specific separation of gases including the removal of H2O, CO2 and SO2 from low-grade natural gas streams. Other separations include noble gases, N2, O2, freon and formaldehyde. However, at present, the true potential to improve the handling of such gases in this manner remains unknown. On-Board Oxygen Generating Systems (OBOGS) use zeolites to remove nitrogen from compressed air in order to supply oxygen for aircrews at high altitudes.
So that is just one bag of supposidly low calorie food. And finally its food analysis
Analysis(approximate on a DM basis):
Crude Protein: 12.5% - horses are best fed on 8-10% why need so much - its excreted in the urine
Crude Fibre: 11.0%
Crude Fat: 9.0%
Starch: 11.0% -
Salt: 1.1%
Calcium: 0.85%
Phosphorus: 0.55%
Magnesium: 0.55%
Copper: 0.75ppm
Zinc: 200ppm
Selenium: 1.0ppm
Vitamin E: 300ppm
Organic Chromium: 0.2ppm
Energy: 12.5MJ/kg
Have no time to analyse anything more - of to a friends daughters first birthday where no doubt there will be a surfiet of processed foods, coloured in violent shades - glad they aren't my kids going home bouncing off the walls.
Ingredients selected from:
Apple flavour If it tastes good why add this? Is it real apple or a synthetic apple flavour
broll Broll is a coarse product obtained whilst milling wheat flour and is a mixture of bran and pollard. We know from our ancestors that wheat products are not good for our horses - basically a waste product left from flour milling with no commercial use - until horse feed manufacturers caught on.
copra is the dried meat, or kernel, of the coconut. Copra meal is used as fodder for horses and cattle. Its high oil levels and protein are fattening for stock. The protein in copra meal has been heat treated and provides a source of high quality protein for cattle, sheep and deer, because it does not break down in the rumen. Copra has been classed as a dangerous good due to its spontaneously combustive nature. It is identified as a Division 4.2 substance. Can also contain damaging fungal spores if not dried correctly.
, KER vitamin and mineral premix - Made by Kentucky Equine Research A scientifically formulated, fully fortified feed balancer pellet, designed for each stage of your horse's life. KER ALL PHASE is a unique combination of essential amino acids, vitamins, organic minerals, antioxidants, protein and yeast culture in a convenient low-dose pellet. KER ALL PHASE is a potent source of essential nutrients that may be used to perfectly complement horses on diets based on roughage and pasture as well as straight grains, or those with reduced calorie requirements. ,
Limestone But we've already had this added in the KER Mineral mix
Lucerne Ground up to help bind all the ingredients
Magnesium oxide, or magnesia, is a white solid mineral that occurs naturally as periclase and is a source of magnesium (see also oxide) also added to Portland cement. Thhought this was already in the KER mix
molasses, Sugar beet molasses
Molasses coming from sugar beet is different from sugar cane molasses. Only the syrup left from the final crystallization stage is called molasses; intermediate syrups are referred to as high green and low green, and these are recycled within the crystallization plant to maximize extraction. Beet molasses is about 50% sugar by dry weight, predominantly sucrose, but also contains significant amounts of glucose and fructose. Beet molasses is limited in biotin (Vitamin H or B7) for cell growth; hence, it may need to be supplemented with a biotin source. The nonsugar content includes many salts, such as calcium, potassium, oxalate, and chloride. It also contains the compounds betaine and the trisaccharide raffinose. These are either as a result of concentration from the original plant material or as a result of chemicals used in the processing, and make it unpalatable to humans. Hence it is mainly used as an additive to animal feed (called "molassed sugar beet feed") or as a fermentation feedstock.[citation needed]
It is possible to extract additional sugar from beet molasses through a process known as molasses desugarisation. This technique exploits industrial-scale chromatography to separate sucrose from nonsugar components. The technique is economically viable in trade-protected areas, where the price of sugar is supported above the world market price. As such, it is practiced in the U.S.[4] and parts of Europe. Molasses is also used for yeast production.
mould inhibitor Scary stuff! I'll leave you to read the literature http://www.vitusa.com/en/products/animal_nutrition/vituprop.pdf
natural vitamin E a group of fat-soluble compounds that include both tocopherols and tocotrienols.There are many different forms of vitamin E, of which γ-tocopherol is the most common γ-Tocopherol can be found in corn oil, soybean oil.
organic chromium Organic chromium is an important stimulant to insulin. Insulin is a vital hormone. It encourages the tissues in our body to rapidly consume the glucose from the blood after we take every meal. Thus insulin controls the sugar in the blood.
palm kernel meal Palm kernel cake are the leftovers after kernel oil is pressed out from the nut in the palm fruit. Palm kernel cake is commonly used as animal feed for dairy cattle because of its high protein content. If not, it is usually treated as biomass to fuel up boilers to generate electricity for use at palm oil mills and surrounding villages
salt Very important
soya meal, soya oil For human consumption, soybeans must be cooked with "wet" heat in order to destroy the trypsin inhibitors (serine protease inhibitors). Raw soybeans, including the immature green form, are toxic to humans, swine, chickens, in fact, all monogastric animals. See also this link http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/soy.htm
sugar beet pulp Lots of info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_beet I've used Mollased sugarbeet for decades and I've never had problems with it - it was fed to all the school ponies with no adverse or hyper behaviour. Its a great source of fibre, contains only minimal sugars - re introduced by a spray of mollasses and contains high levels of calcium as a result of processing methods.
Zeolites are widely used in industry for water purification, as catalysts, and in nuclear reprocessing. Their biggest use is in the production of laundry detergents. They are also used in medicine and in agriculture. Zeolites are widely used as ion-exchange beds in domestic and commercial water purification, softening, and other applications. In chemistry, zeolites are used to separate molecules (only molecules of certain sizes and shapes can pass through), as traps for molecules so they can be analyzed. Zeolites have the potential of providing precise and specific separation of gases including the removal of H2O, CO2 and SO2 from low-grade natural gas streams. Other separations include noble gases, N2, O2, freon and formaldehyde. However, at present, the true potential to improve the handling of such gases in this manner remains unknown. On-Board Oxygen Generating Systems (OBOGS) use zeolites to remove nitrogen from compressed air in order to supply oxygen for aircrews at high altitudes.
So that is just one bag of supposidly low calorie food. And finally its food analysis
Analysis(approximate on a DM basis):
Crude Protein: 12.5% - horses are best fed on 8-10% why need so much - its excreted in the urine
Crude Fibre: 11.0%
Crude Fat: 9.0%
Starch: 11.0% -
Salt: 1.1%
Calcium: 0.85%
Phosphorus: 0.55%
Magnesium: 0.55%
Copper: 0.75ppm
Zinc: 200ppm
Selenium: 1.0ppm
Vitamin E: 300ppm
Organic Chromium: 0.2ppm
Energy: 12.5MJ/kg
Have no time to analyse anything more - of to a friends daughters first birthday where no doubt there will be a surfiet of processed foods, coloured in violent shades - glad they aren't my kids going home bouncing off the walls.
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
Bothe are made from Lucerne Hay so just just feed Lucerne hay instead and save yourself a fortune - that is all it is - ground up and mixed into a mush - extruded through a machine and dried off.
The majority of horses don't need to be fed lucerne in any form - high protein and a calcium inhibitor.
Good quality meadow hay is all the majority of horses need.
Mike007
Well-Known Member
Forgive me if I am wrong but isn Alfa A simply dried alfalfa. If you feel you need more protein and digestible fibre,feed a better hay ,or buy a few bales of imported Canadian Alfalfa hay ,and add a slab to his haynet. Dont be kidded by the feed salesmen,there are alternatives. PS your K is fuc*ed
marmalade76
Well-Known Member
I *now, sometimes I C&P them, but CBA tonight.
I don't thin* the OH would ta*e too well to me buying hay when he ma*es 1000s of bales, and I want something to put in a buc*et anyway. We did have a chaff cutter, but he either sold it or too* it to the scrap yard
I don't thin* the OH would ta*e too well to me buying hay when he ma*es 1000s of bales, and I want something to put in a buc*et anyway. We did have a chaff cutter, but he either sold it or too* it to the scrap yard
Mike007
Well-Known Member
I *now, sometimes I C&P them, but CBA tonight.
I don't thin* the OH would ta*e too well to me buying hay when he ma*es 1000s of bales, and I want something to put in a buc*et anyway. We did have a chaff cutter, but he either sold it or too* it to the scrap yard
Oh Bolloc*s
MissMistletoe
Well-Known Member
The hunters at a yard I worked on years ago were hunted off sugar beet, barley and a spoonful of salt. They got very good quality hay, with a kettle of hot water poured over the net if they were coughers.
How times have changed!
How times have changed!
Mike007
Well-Known Member
Bet they looked and went well on it too. I personaly dont rate Barley but would have used oats and linseed would have found it way in there too.
kickonchaps
Well-Known Member
Agree 100% with the first part, which is why I think so many people go wrong when they try and do the 2nd part!! Relying on, say the sugar content given on the back of a bag is no different than saying Coke Zero has less calories and sugar than a banana, thus it's better for you!
There's a huge difference between a feed that's 5% sugar due to sugar naturally occurring in a plant, and a feed that's 5% sugar because it's basically straw covered in molasses...
Likewise I can't remember who it was earlier that said alfalfa is unnaturally high in protein, but I don't get this at all - alfalfa's a plant, so how can any of its levels be unnatural? (Unless we're talking about GM, which I'm not!!) If you do a straight comparison of protein content on the back of a bag of cereal mix, and the back of a bag of alfalfa pellets, and see that the former is say 10%, the latter is 18%, then yes that might look high, but they're completely different types of protein! It's just like the sugar thing above, you can't compare protein/sugar levels between bags unless you understand exactly which ingredients are giving those levels, and what type of sugar/protein/starch/whatever they're providing.
I don't like the way the article in the OP was written, agree that it's quite aggressive in tone, but I agree 100% with the point it's making, especially the 10% colic rate thing - seriously, if this was true for horses (as was the prevalance of lami, EMS etc) how on earth did horses evolve several tens of millions of years without us?!
Kaylum
Well-Known Member
My YO feeds straights to her full liveries and they all hunt and look fantastic on them. She always has fed this way. They are all up to weight and are rarely ill.
tristar
Well-Known Member
brilliant article, it encompasses most things i've earned over a lifetime.
i feed only staights, the basis of all horses diets should be the very best hay that you can get your hands on, they are hay making now, get out there and buy some, most horses only need supplementation of diet for breeding and work purposes where extra nutrition is needed for energy, that's why so many are too fat, or they are grazing too much on the wrong sort of grass, but that's another discussion.
the same applies to people, its not until you make the effort to cook food from scratch from basic ingredients that you realise how different you can feel and look, and how much more energy you can have from eating properly, next time you do the shopping just look on the boxes of what you buy and become aware of the crxp that is going into your body.
i feed only staights, the basis of all horses diets should be the very best hay that you can get your hands on, they are hay making now, get out there and buy some, most horses only need supplementation of diet for breeding and work purposes where extra nutrition is needed for energy, that's why so many are too fat, or they are grazing too much on the wrong sort of grass, but that's another discussion.
the same applies to people, its not until you make the effort to cook food from scratch from basic ingredients that you realise how different you can feel and look, and how much more energy you can have from eating properly, next time you do the shopping just look on the boxes of what you buy and become aware of the crxp that is going into your body.
touchstone
Well-Known Member
I'm another who prefers straights to commercial mixes.
I was brought up feeding sugar beet, bran, rolled oats, boiled barley, linseed etc. with a gloop of cod liver oil for oldies. That was only to hard working horses in winter, the rest managed fine just on hay.
I think part of the problem is that owners have lost the skills that old horsemen had of what to feed when, they simply pop down to the feedstore and find a bag that sounds right and feed it. They don't need to understand about the individual ingredients.
To be fair there were horses that developed issues on straights, usually those overfed or who had allergies to eg. barley.
Another issue that I think affects horses is the fact that there are so many environmental factors involved in feed production now; the use of pesticides, high nitrogen fertiliser, herbicides, gm modified etc that I think there is bound to be a knock on effect on the systems of horses, and I do think that this might also play a part in the increase of diseases/allergies we now see in horses. Plus the fact that horses nowadays are primarily leisure animals and many don't have a real job to do anymore and lead fairly sedentary lives.
I was brought up feeding sugar beet, bran, rolled oats, boiled barley, linseed etc. with a gloop of cod liver oil for oldies. That was only to hard working horses in winter, the rest managed fine just on hay.
I think part of the problem is that owners have lost the skills that old horsemen had of what to feed when, they simply pop down to the feedstore and find a bag that sounds right and feed it. They don't need to understand about the individual ingredients.
To be fair there were horses that developed issues on straights, usually those overfed or who had allergies to eg. barley.
Another issue that I think affects horses is the fact that there are so many environmental factors involved in feed production now; the use of pesticides, high nitrogen fertiliser, herbicides, gm modified etc that I think there is bound to be a knock on effect on the systems of horses, and I do think that this might also play a part in the increase of diseases/allergies we now see in horses. Plus the fact that horses nowadays are primarily leisure animals and many don't have a real job to do anymore and lead fairly sedentary lives.
soonenuff
New User
Quote:
Originally Posted by marmalade76
I *now, sometimes I C&P them, but CBA tonight.
I don't thin* the OH would ta*e too well to me buying hay when he ma*es 1000s of bales, and I want something to put in a buc*et anyway. We did have a chaff cutter, but he either sold it or too* it to the scrap yard
This cracked me up!...thanks for the laugh
I found this whole thread extremely interesting, and just to add to other comments already made:-
Years ago I worked on a p2p & hunter yard. We had a rolling machine with different settings which 'bruised' whole oats, and 'crushed' whole barley. Along with that we had a chaff cutter used with our own mixed meadow hay (proper old fashioned stuff with a variety of grasses, flowers and herbs) as a bulk, which got mixed with diluted molasses. (No sugarbeet back then). On hunting days all the horses would get a bran mash made up with boiled barley and linseed which had been simmering all day, and a tablespoon of salt.
Every horse without exception were in excellent health, fit and sound.
I have succumbed to the 'ready mix' regime in the past, and found just about every horse developed some kind of 'quirky' behaviour...so back to the good old stuff, and in today's present financial climate...alot, lot cheaper.
Plus, if only more people would realise that most horses will do very well on just good quality forage, and unless in hard work, which most aren't these days, very little 'hard' feed.
Originally Posted by marmalade76
I *now, sometimes I C&P them, but CBA tonight.
I don't thin* the OH would ta*e too well to me buying hay when he ma*es 1000s of bales, and I want something to put in a buc*et anyway. We did have a chaff cutter, but he either sold it or too* it to the scrap yard
Oh Bolloc*s
This cracked me up!...thanks for the laugh
I found this whole thread extremely interesting, and just to add to other comments already made:-
Years ago I worked on a p2p & hunter yard. We had a rolling machine with different settings which 'bruised' whole oats, and 'crushed' whole barley. Along with that we had a chaff cutter used with our own mixed meadow hay (proper old fashioned stuff with a variety of grasses, flowers and herbs) as a bulk, which got mixed with diluted molasses. (No sugarbeet back then). On hunting days all the horses would get a bran mash made up with boiled barley and linseed which had been simmering all day, and a tablespoon of salt.
Every horse without exception were in excellent health, fit and sound.
I have succumbed to the 'ready mix' regime in the past, and found just about every horse developed some kind of 'quirky' behaviour...so back to the good old stuff, and in today's present financial climate...alot, lot cheaper.
Plus, if only more people would realise that most horses will do very well on just good quality forage, and unless in hard work, which most aren't these days, very little 'hard' feed.
soonenuff
New User
I found this whole thread extremely interesting, and just to add to other comments already made:-
Years ago I worked on a p2p & hunter yard. We had a rolling machine with different settings which 'bruised' whole oats, and 'crushed' whole barley. Along with that we had a chaff cutter used with our own mixed meadow hay (proper old fashioned stuff with a variety of grasses, flowers and herbs) as a bulk, which got mixed with diluted molasses. (No sugarbeet back then). On hunting days all the horses would get a bran mash made up with boiled barley and linseed which had been simmering all day, and a tablespoon of salt.
Every horse without exception were in excellent health, fit and sound.
I have succumbed to the 'ready mix' regime in the past, and found just about every horse developed some kind of 'quirky' behaviour...so back to the good old stuff, and in today's present financial climate...alot, lot cheaper.
Plus, if only more people would realise that most horses will do very well on just good quality forage, and unless in hard work, which most aren't these days, very little 'hard' feed.
Years ago I worked on a p2p & hunter yard. We had a rolling machine with different settings which 'bruised' whole oats, and 'crushed' whole barley. Along with that we had a chaff cutter used with our own mixed meadow hay (proper old fashioned stuff with a variety of grasses, flowers and herbs) as a bulk, which got mixed with diluted molasses. (No sugarbeet back then). On hunting days all the horses would get a bran mash made up with boiled barley and linseed which had been simmering all day, and a tablespoon of salt.
Every horse without exception were in excellent health, fit and sound.
I have succumbed to the 'ready mix' regime in the past, and found just about every horse developed some kind of 'quirky' behaviour...so back to the good old stuff, and in today's present financial climate...alot, lot cheaper.
Plus, if only more people would realise that most horses will do very well on just good quality forage, and unless in hard work, which most aren't these days, very little 'hard' feed.
Firewell
Well-Known Member
I'm finding this argument very one sided. It's like the bran debate but no-one feeds that anymore.
I would love to hear from a nutritionist from one of the big feed companies to see what science they could put behind their point of view!
Sadly I don't come from an era where all horses were only fed straights, I've grown up with spillers pony nuts although my mother would add oats to the lazy ones diet and boiled barley in the winter. One thing I did learn from doing an equine science module at uni that all that would have done was unbalance the ration.
Feeding is very complicated but I don't think the correct diet solves everything. With the lifetime of experience that seems to be on this thread I'm sure some of the behaviour changes were down to better routine, handling and management.
No everyone will know how to balance a ration and there horses may actually be safer being fed a scoop of pony nuts then straights that aren't balanced properly.
Also lots of modern research has gone into current feeding practices, Oil for example. We never fed oil when I was young except fish oil!
I think people are realising that sticky pasture and competition mixes are not good for horses, lots of compound feeds nowadays are based on fibre and oil and contain balanced rations or straw, linseed, unmollassed beet.
I don't think the old way is the only way. You just have to be sensible about it. Our old horses lasted into their 20's with no I'll effects from being fed pony nuts.
The only feed we have ever had problems is with Alfa. Mine gets loose droppings on it, my mums got protein lumps and their urine stank! I don't like Alfa it doesn't suit our horses.
Also what is this term 'head flicker?' I have never hears that before... The only head shaker we have at our yard is a cob that is on a bare patch of grass and is not allowed to eat anything
ever!
I would love to hear from a nutritionist from one of the big feed companies to see what science they could put behind their point of view!
Sadly I don't come from an era where all horses were only fed straights, I've grown up with spillers pony nuts although my mother would add oats to the lazy ones diet and boiled barley in the winter. One thing I did learn from doing an equine science module at uni that all that would have done was unbalance the ration
.Feeding is very complicated but I don't think the correct diet solves everything. With the lifetime of experience that seems to be on this thread I'm sure some of the behaviour changes were down to better routine, handling and management.
No everyone will know how to balance a ration and there horses may actually be safer being fed a scoop of pony nuts then straights that aren't balanced properly.
Also lots of modern research has gone into current feeding practices, Oil for example. We never fed oil when I was young except fish oil!
I think people are realising that sticky pasture and competition mixes are not good for horses, lots of compound feeds nowadays are based on fibre and oil and contain balanced rations or straw, linseed, unmollassed beet.
I don't think the old way is the only way. You just have to be sensible about it. Our old horses lasted into their 20's with no I'll effects from being fed pony nuts.
The only feed we have ever had problems is with Alfa. Mine gets loose droppings on it, my mums got protein lumps and their urine stank! I don't like Alfa it doesn't suit our horses.
Also what is this term 'head flicker?' I have never hears that before... The only head shaker we have at our yard is a cob that is on a bare patch of grass and is not allowed to eat anything
ever!
little_critter
Well-Known Member
Same here - I'm new to looking after horses, I was feeding my mare what she had when I got her but recently switched to a mix. How do you learn about 'traditional' feeding? The main source of feeding advice are the feed companies helplines - surprise surprise they suggest their products.
My mare is straightforwards and probably doesn't need much, I was amazed by the list of feeds that TopSpec suggested I use (especially when they seemed pricey too)
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celia
Well-Known Member
I agree with a lot of the comments on this thread, especially regarding horses being fed products that they really don't need. IMO most leisure horses would cope fine on grass in summer and good quality hay in winter. There are so many 'novice' owners now, which isn't a bad thing, but does mean people are much more likely to believe anything feed companies tell them as they are anxious to do the right thing for their horse.
I think a lot of the problems come from a lack of knowledge. I'm no expert but I am always amazed that the majority of horse-owners I meet have very little understanding of how the horse's digestive system works and, consequently, the types of feed that suit them best. The same goes for what I would class as pretty basic feeding knowledge, e.g. the calcium/phosphorus imbalance in cereals, ideal protein levels (low!), different types of proteins, slow release vs fast release, etc etc. If you understand what different things do in the diet you become much more aware of how certain feeds affect the horse.
I've also come to believe that many people think feeding all sorts of different feeds + supplements etc shows what a good owner they are and how much they are doing for their horse. Seems bizarre to me but some seem to almost boast about how much hard feed their horse needs!
IME if you start with plenty of good quality forage and only add extras when necessary, then you can't go far wrong. Simple is definitely best.
I think a lot of the problems come from a lack of knowledge. I'm no expert but I am always amazed that the majority of horse-owners I meet have very little understanding of how the horse's digestive system works and, consequently, the types of feed that suit them best. The same goes for what I would class as pretty basic feeding knowledge, e.g. the calcium/phosphorus imbalance in cereals, ideal protein levels (low!), different types of proteins, slow release vs fast release, etc etc. If you understand what different things do in the diet you become much more aware of how certain feeds affect the horse.
I've also come to believe that many people think feeding all sorts of different feeds + supplements etc shows what a good owner they are and how much they are doing for their horse. Seems bizarre to me but some seem to almost boast about how much hard feed their horse needs!
IME if you start with plenty of good quality forage and only add extras when necessary, then you can't go far wrong. Simple is definitely best.
TarantuLove
Well-Known Member
I agree. My horse has been left with ulcers because of being fed commercial foods. I now feed him on Winergy Senior and even though he is not perfect, he is 1000000% better than he was.
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
The Pony Club Manual has plenty of information about feeding traditional feeds. Also The Horsemasters Notebook by Mary Rose.
joeanne
Well-Known Member
"Ready meals" are just so convienient that many will use them.
I now use straights....easier, cheaper and you can see exactly whats going into them!
I now use straights....easier, cheaper and you can see exactly whats going into them!
Hadders
Member
This is a really interesting article, and it's good to see that there are many knowledgable, experienced people out there!
It does leave me a bit confused on what I am doing though, and whether I am doing the right thing!
I had a new forest pony who made it to over 40 years old, he started being fed, pony nuts and bran in years gone by, then as he got older and the equine food market developed the nuts were replaced by mixes, the bran reduced but never fully removed and alfa brought in, and he did great, and I thought I was doing well with my feeding knowledge; but then after he went and I now have a 16 year old native and a 2 year old native, I am some what perplexed, I believed in the feeding that I was giving to my golden oldie, but I wonder now whether I should have the same belief with these 2.
The baby was on Baileys Stud balencer and hi fi, but having turned 2, no more balancer, and the teenager was laminitic when I first got him so is on Happy Hoof. I have been convinced that I should be continuing in my old routine of 2 small feeds a day, the one on happy hoof is fine, but I wonder whether I shouldn't be giving my youngster as much?
They are strip grazed in a herd situation - and the grazing is good, maybe I shouldn't be feeding the youngster at all? I am completely confused!
Having done lots of research into the better feeds (and I have to confess to completely forgetting about straights and only looking at mixes having been brain washed by marketing!) I spoke to someone at D&H who suggested Suregrow or Ultimate Balancer, but airing more heavily towards the Ultimate Balancer - I was horrified at the price, no wonder they were pushing towards that!
What have other people done in this situation? I feel like I am chasing my tail and don't feel he is on the right food, but don't really want to go through too much trial and error!!
It does leave me a bit confused on what I am doing though, and whether I am doing the right thing!
I had a new forest pony who made it to over 40 years old, he started being fed, pony nuts and bran in years gone by, then as he got older and the equine food market developed the nuts were replaced by mixes, the bran reduced but never fully removed and alfa brought in, and he did great, and I thought I was doing well with my feeding knowledge; but then after he went
and I now have a 16 year old native and a 2 year old native, I am some what perplexed, I believed in the feeding that I was giving to my golden oldie, but I wonder now whether I should have the same belief with these 2.The baby was on Baileys Stud balencer and hi fi, but having turned 2, no more balancer, and the teenager was laminitic when I first got him so is on Happy Hoof. I have been convinced that I should be continuing in my old routine of 2 small feeds a day, the one on happy hoof is fine, but I wonder whether I shouldn't be giving my youngster as much?
They are strip grazed in a herd situation - and the grazing is good, maybe I shouldn't be feeding the youngster at all? I am completely confused!
Having done lots of research into the better feeds (and I have to confess to completely forgetting about straights and only looking at mixes having been brain washed by marketing!) I spoke to someone at D&H who suggested Suregrow or Ultimate Balancer, but airing more heavily towards the Ultimate Balancer - I was horrified at the price, no wonder they were pushing towards that!
What have other people done in this situation? I feel like I am chasing my tail and don't feel he is on the right food, but don't really want to go through too much trial and error!!
little_critter
Well-Known Member
Thanks - I have the Pony Club manual and I'll have another look at it. I know just the other week I was confused about how much hay to give my mare. The BHS site says you should feed approx 1.5 - 2% of body weight and fellow HHOers advised that this included the quantity of grass she eats while out during the day.
So how the hell do I work out what weight of grass she's eating? I've fallen at the first hurdle!
I also think a lot of the reliance on commercial feeds is convenience. From what I've heard linseed sounds like a wonder-feed but also requires preparation. I don't have the time or facilities to simmer linseed for ages.
marmalade76
Well-Known Member
You can buy micronised linseed which is ready to feed, I give my boy a little during the winter.
Piglet
Well-Known Member
I fed Simple Systems food for about a year, I didn't notice any difference, now I feed my boy on Mollichaff and unbranded fibre cubes, a clove of garlic and a healthy dose of magnesium powder and healthy horse multi vit from Natural Horse Supplies, he seems to be doing ok on it.