Just how badly are we feeding our horses?

Mike007,

What is the difference between Canadian Alfalfa (Lucerne) Hay and the same grown in the UK?

Brighteyes if you wrap your Lucerne slices in a damp hessian sack for a few hours it settles the dust - which unfortunately Lucerne hay has a habit of becoming when too dry - it damps all the leaves and they don't break up so easily. Works the same for Clover Hay too.
 
Last edited:
Evelyn said:
Interesting Mike - here in NZ Bran is really cheap and in everything composite. What I find worrying though about this research is that in the past Bran was the cause of Millers head, what explains this if the phosphorous was not accessable by the horse. The calcium depleted bones were Yet then bran actually had flour in it compared to modern bran which would give us a far higher phosphorous loading than bran in the past.

Nutritional Secondary Hyperparathyroidism (Bighead, Bran disease):
Horses of all ages fed grass hay or pasture and supplemented with large amounts of grain-based concentrates or wheat bran are most likely to develop relative or absolute calcium deficiencies leading to nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism. Excess phosphorus intake (Ca:P ratio <1.0) causes the same clinical signs,. Blood concentrations of calcium do not reflect intake due to homeostatic mechanisms, though blood inorganic phosphorus may be elevated due to mobilization of bone mineral content. Serum alkaline phosphatase activity is usually increased, and clotting time may be prolonged slightly. Young, growing bone is frequently rachitic and brittle. Fractures may be common and heal poorly. Swelling and softening of the facial bones and alternating limb lameness are frequently reported. (See also osteomalacia, Osteomalacia.) From the Merck online Veterinary Manual
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/182606.htm

I will not feed bran as part of a daily ration though; maybe as part of sicknursing feed only, a friend here used to swear by pollard, a bran with a little more flour in it, but no longer feeds it since her horse cracked his pedal bone. Fortunately he has recovered and is back in work.

It is interesting that online the UK manufacturers don't list the ingredients.
Click to expand...

My understanding is that it isnt really the phosphorous that is to blame but the sheer lack of Calcium in wheat and its byproducts .That is why they started adding Calcium to flour for human consumption.If the Phosphorous is as phtic Phosphorous it is not available to influence tha Ca /P ratio.
The truth behind Millers disease is that way back when Bran contained a significant amount of flour,it also had a significant energy value. Horses were fed on this readily available feed ,and given large quantities to the exclusion of other more expensive feedstuffs . It was the low Calcium level in the flour that caused the problems.There was no other available source of Calcium.
The trouble with things like this is that they get passed down for generations long after people have forgoten the specific circumstances behind the problem .
 
What I see fed every day at our yard! :eek:

Until last summer, my pony got only his "catching carrot"; beyond that, he was out 24/7 in a field that's rather too rich for him in the spring/summer. He tends to turn into a brown whale with feet, even in the winter. Last summer, while he was on restricted grazing with soaked hay (in with a heaves-pony), I noticed that he was being even more spooky than usual, to the point where he actually left a lovely blue hoof-print on my bum one day! Since this is very out of character, I consulted a nutritionist, who recommended I feed TopSpec Anti-Lam as a general supplement, and as a carrier for a bit of extra mag-ox. He's been pretty much back to his normal (still rather spooky) self since then, though it's hard to say of course if this is related to the supplement at all!

This spring, he came out of the winter fatter than he went in---sadly, there was haylage in the fields rather than hay, and I assume that was part of the cause! He's spent days in the restricted grazing for many weeks now, and nights in the regular field, since others on the yard appear reluctant to put anyone else in that paddock. Thankfully, he now has a companion in there, and can stay 24/7 for several weeks, I hope! I really hope he deflates to a more reasonable size; now that the term is over, I hope I can maintain a more rigorous exercise regime for him.
 
Evelyn said:
Mike007,

What is the difference between Canadian Alfalfa (Lucerne) Hay and the same grown in the UK?

.
Click to expand...

We dont generaly get enough dry weather to dry the thick stems before it gets rained on,and cant guarantee to be able to cut it at the best time. They make some nice stuff in Canada.Its a much more consistent product.This is why we have companies like Dengie who dry the Lucerne using gas .In the days when gas was cheap this was ok .Now it makes more sense to ship the stuff in as Lucerne hay.
 
Last edited:
Mike007 said:
My understanding is that it isnt really the phosphorous that is to blame but the sheer lack of Calcium in wheat and its byproducts .That is why they started adding Calcium to flour for human consumption.If the Phosphorous is as phtic Phosphorous it is not available to influence tha Ca /P ratio.
The truth behind Millers disease is that way back when Bran contained a significant amount of flour,it also had a significant energy value. Horses were fed on this readily available feed ,and given large quantities to the exclusion of other more expensive feedstuffs . It was the low Calcium level in the flour that caused the problems.There was no other available source of Calcium.
The trouble with things like this is that they get passed down for generations long after people have forgoten the specific circumstances behind the problem .
Click to expand...

Interesting idea but Limestone flour was a standard additive to horse feed then (natural source of Calcium). We were still using it in the 70's.
 
Evelyn said:
Interesting idea but Limestone flour was a standard additive to horse feed then (natural source of Calcium). We were still using it in the 70's.
Click to expand...

Millers disease is more of a ninteenth centuary disease. Modern flour milling processes circa 1930 ended the supply of Bran with an energy input . It is also worth considering that a lot of horses didnt get hay ,just Oat straw.Subsequently people realised they needed to add limestone flour not only to horse feed but to flour for human consumption ,because as with the horses ,those on the poorest diets ate the most of this product .
 
Last edited:
irish_only said:
Ah Lead - forgot that one. Living in an area where we are surrounded by lead mines, grazing has to be carefully chosen. Many years ago I lost a 3yo to lead poisoning, and he hadn't grazed near any disused workings. Young animals are more susceptible to leaded land, hence a commonly known phrase in our parts for lead poisoning in young cows is 'staggers'. Obviously a build up of toxins?
Click to expand...

I don't know if lead is an acumulative toxin :o If you are interested, I will look it up tomorrow for you :)

ETA: if you are at all concerned about your grazing, have it analysed. Its about £40, and for about the same again you can have recommendations made by a nutritionalist which basically interprets the findings and tells you if there's anything to worry about, and if there is then how to manage it.
 
Naturally said:
I don't know if lead is an acumulative toxin :o If you are interested, I will look it up tomorrow for you :)

ETA: if you are at all concerned about yor grazing, have it analysed. Its about £40 I think, and for about the same again you can have recommendations made by a nutritionalist which basically interprets the findings and tells you if there's anything to worry about, and if there is then how to manage it.
Click to expand...

Lead is very much an accumalative toxin


You know lead is toxic, but do you know what makes it poisonous? In a nutshell, it's toxic mainly because it preferentially replaces other metals (e.g., zinc, calcium and iron) in biochemical reactions. Lead interferes with the proteins that cause certain genes to turn on and off by displacing other metals in the molecules. This changes the shape of the protein molecule such that it can't perform its function. Research is ongoing to identify which molecules bind with lead. Some of the proteins that are known to be affected by lead regulate blood pressure (which can cause development delays in children and high blood pressure in adults), heme production (which can lead to anemia), and sperm production (possibly implicating lead in infertility). Lead displaces calcium in the reactions that transmit electrical impulses in the brain, which is another way of saying it diminishes your ability to think or recall information, or makes you stupid.

Paracelsus' idea that the dose makes the poison doesn't really apply with lead. Many substances are non-toxic or even essential in trace amounts, yet poisonous in quantity. You need iron to transport oxygen in your red blood cells, yet too much iron can kill you. You breathe oxygen, yet again, too much is lethal. Lead isn't like those elements. It's simply poisonous. The main concern is lead exposure with small children, because lead can cause developmental problems, plus kids engage in activities that increase their exposure to the metal (e.g., putting things in their mouths, not washing their hands). There is no minimum safe exposure limit, in part because lead accumulates in the body. There are government regulations regarding 'acceptable' limits for products and pollution, because lead is useful and necessary, but the reality is, any lead is too much lead.
http://chemistry.about.com/od/howthingsworkfaqs/f/leadpoisoning.htm

Treatment of Lead Poisoning
Lead poisoning can be treated if treatment begins before too much damage has occurred.

Lead is removed through a process called chelation, using drugs to bind to the metal in the bloodstream, flushing it out in the urine. Medications include calcium-disodium (EDTA), which is usually administered intravenously over several days in a hospital, and succimer (DMSA), which does not require hospitalization. Succimer (Chemet) has become the preferred chelating agent for less severe cases because it can be given by mouth.
 
Last edited:
I dont think i want to ever read more about horse feeds lol.
So confusing, conflicting advice and evidence on websites.
I'm glad mine are hairy beasts that remain round on grass and hay :)
 
Thanks Evelyn :)

I've actually just opened the article in the first post. I stopped when I got to

" Power tools run too hot and burn the enamel which fails to grow back."

... just me or is this a ridiculous myth to spread?! :eek: enamel doesn't need to "grow back" in horses, it is constantly worn down by eating, a fact which is quite basic and known by most, surely? If it was a poor choice of wording and she actually means that hot power tools prevent the tooth from its normal eruption process, well, I really don't see how??

I dont think i want to ever read more about horse feeds lol.
So confusing, conflicting advice and evidence on websites.
I'm glad mine are hairy beasts that remain round on grass and hay
Click to expand...

Horses could do a heck of a lot worse than that ;)
 
Last edited:
Naturally said:
I don't know if lead is an acumulative toxin :o If you are interested, I will look it up tomorrow for you :)

ETA: if you are at all concerned about your grazing, have it analysed. Its about £40, and for about the same again you can have recommendations made by a nutritionalist which basically interprets the findings and tells you if there's anything to worry about, and if there is then how to manage it.
Click to expand...

It is accumulative, and the trouble is that by the time you realise there is something wrong it is too late. Symptoms are staggering, swaying etc. Affects the brain. I have had land tested in the past, but quite honestly the easiest way to check is look at a very old map and check out the whereabouts of leadmines, and avoid like the plague. I have a farming friend who used to have some leaded land, and on early mornings if there was a dew on the ground he said you could see a different colour on the grass. He would never put young cattle on there.
 
'We' might be feeding badly. Me personally has made damn sure I've researched what I feed my horse, my dogs and myself actually. It's not rocket science there is enough information out there for us to make informed educated choices, and feeding good quality suitable feed isn't a fortune. I feed Pure Feeds and it costs me less than £20 a month for my 15hh cob.
 
I am cruel I obviously do not care for my horse as I took him off straights and now feed him a commercial mix!!!!

He is now going better than ever looks really well and I must have succumbed to the manufacturers twaddle .
And it's cheaper too!
One of the best posts here is millitigers it's not so much what you feed either system works it's more the whole stable management which off course includes the exercise bs food ratio get this wrong whatever you are feeding things will go wrong!
 
When I got back into horse ownership after a (very) long absence I was soooo confused by the feeds....everything came in one bag! I remembered different bins of straights which we used to adjust to each horse/pony.

Cocked up a few times.....one very sensitive horse made me look at everything I fed....bless his hooves- taught me a lot that old lad.

I currently have 2 natives and an arab. All doing very well on grass /hay and a handfull of chaff . The 'demented' arab has changed beyond belief- his previous owners fed him mix- couldn't do a thing with him. He was in a permamant state of anxiety, looked dreadful as well.

Certainly the cheapest/easiest I have ever kept my horses and they are relaxed, happy and looking good. Possibly toogood.:o
 
All ours eat Allen and Page Fast Fibre (just grass) and the hifi which has no added sugar or calories to it. (Can't remember the name) and we have 2 TBs, a connie and a connieXtb. None of them look undernourished!
 
just to throw another angle onto this but are they horses/ponies that are now being bred maybe partly responsible for the increases in cases of lami etc. Veterinary advances see more cases of illness recover when once upon a time they would have been put down. Often leaving a horse/pony not suitable for its intended job so sometimes ending up as breeding because it cant be ridden/driven/competed is this passing a more genetic predisposition to lami/allergies etc ? Also the majority of foals born with problems would also have been destroyed as long term veterinary treatment of such conditions was not considered practical/financially viable whereas with most leisure horses it now is (maybe a case of heart ruling head )
 
dalesslave said:
just to throw another angle onto this but are they horses/ponies that are now being bred maybe partly responsible for the increases in cases of lami etc. Veterinary advances see more cases of illness recover when once upon a time they would have been put down. Often leaving a horse/pony not suitable for its intended job so sometimes ending up as breeding because it cant be ridden/driven/competed is this passing a more genetic predisposition to lami/allergies etc ? Also the majority of foals born with problems would also have been destroyed as long term veterinary treatment of such conditions was not considered practical/financially viable whereas with most leisure horses it now is (maybe a case of heart ruling head )
Click to expand...

I think that basically the commercial interest of feed companies over rides any intention other than to sell feeds at the highest price they can. Add to this the fact that most horse owners don't really have any idea of what horses actually need by way of feed, but are happy to pay inflated prices for sweet smelling crap. Then compound this with the showing fraternity who like big fat horses, but are supposed to have some knowledge about horses. Breeders also play some part in breeding for a charactoristic, like a crest, which is normally found on IR horses. Horses are then kept in restricted areas such as stables or fields where they get little or no exercise compaired to what they actually need and are designed, their feet mutilated by shoes and the stage is set, for obese unfit horses, where their underlying poor health is covered over by vets prescribing pain killers and antibiotics with abandon. Little wonder that any horse asked to perform suffers from back strain, ligament issues, lameness etc. etc. etc.
 
I wounder if H&H would like to print an article based on this thread? And even interview the author of thearticle and ask him to name which companies use cement and chicken manure in their feeds. Would be a a good article I think.
 
Horsesforever1 said:
I wounder if H&H would like to print an article based on this thread? And even interview the author of thearticle and ask him to name which companies use cement and chicken manure in their feeds. Would be a a good article I think.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

Although I find it hard to believe that they do put chicken *****e in horse feed, I can't help thinking of salmonella in eggs being caused by putting ground up chicken carcasses in chicken feed back in the eighties.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top