Kalinka

[TPO]

If you follow Karl on insta he never makes excuses for his horse's behaviour and investigates everything. He cares very much for their welfare. This is the problem with being in the public eye, everything gets scrutinised.

The dude was married to Kayley Cuoco and has just been through a divorce and 6 months later she was pregnant and moved in with someone else (OMG i cannot believe I know all this crap!).

Ha ha that's how I "knew" him too. I don't follow SJ at all. I only followed her because of the horse connection but I just couldn't cope with her even on SM.

But yeah, via that I saw the regular videos the Karl put out and he does appear to think out of the box to do the best by his horses. He's had a few masterclasses on Noelle Floyd too.

I cba watching all of both videos in OP but think I got the gist...

Separate from Karl and this horse I think it's an interesting topic.

For a long time "quirky" horses were just accepted as being quirky; apparently even more so if they were talented. Then if they were talented they'd be reported on and rider/owners would mention things about quirks so those quirks became public knowledge.

However it perpetuated the myth that *all* quirky horses were talented. It almost became a boasting point to have a "difficult" horses with the whole "I'm the only person that can ride my horse" diatribe.

Then as a whole we've become a lot more aware that lots of behaviour and "that's just how they are" things are actually pain related. A shift in thinking (not in everyone!) and better diagnostic tools has identified the root causes of certain behaviours.

I guess the debate is are some horses just like that or is it that the pain (physical and/or psychological) issue just hasn't been found?

That (most) people are now asking that question is huge progress IMO

 

[Cortez]

Oh, he’s that guy? The one that was married to Kaley Kuoco? Riiiight. Pretty good rider by all accounts.

I’d be pretty well assured that any large, professional operation with top show jumpers will have a team of vets, physios, etc. on board to keep the horses in top condition. If the horse is only problematic in this one area and is otherwise doing well, and performing well, then I don’t see how it’s damaging the sport.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I have said before that after my brief experiences at BS stay away shows, I am no fan of showjumping as I have seen too many horses who I felt were not coping. Unable to walk into the arena without being led, napping and rearing in the warm up area etc and then jumping clear. Or maybe I am wrong and all those horses are just highly strung but still well prepared for their job and happy. I dont know.

But I do I agree with those saying you cannot possibly judge this either way from these brief snapshots. Karl pays a huge attention to detail. Bordering obsessional. I have no doubt that many experienced, competent professionals have assessed her and concluded that this is a quirk of her temperament. Some horses are very sensitive and tricky. Does not mean they are in pain or not happy in their work. I also agree with LG that retirement is not the best option for clever, talented, highly strung, sensitive horses. So not sure there are better options for her than being a horse with a very dedicated trainer, doing a job she clearly understands and is confident in. Even if some of the bits around that job are harder for her.

 

[ihatework]

My general thoughts, in no particular order, and from a position of not knowing the rider, the horse, the management etc.

- Very few riders want their competition horses behaving like this. They will be doing everything possible behind the scenes to mitigate this.
- Professional riders have to ride good competitive horses. It's their job. Its what puts a roof over their head and food on the plate. If the horse jumps well then they will continue to ride it if they have no other options.
- Horses, like humans, have a whole range of temprements and ability (or not) to manage their emotions. Their trainers can try and mould them to some extent but ultimately their default nature is pretty solid.
- Some horses behave like this through pain/fear etc - but there are plenty that are just hardwired like that, training their brain takes considerable experience and skill and there are bound to be mistakes made along the way
- I agree to the non-rider/fluffy rider (and even to some extent the experienced competitor), this behaviour is far from ideal. We do need to be concerned about the sports image and welfare and there is no doubt this horse experiences a high level of stress.
- This is the type of horse that needs very careful management and a job. If it doesn't have that then the other option is possibly a bullet. Good job the horse is a cracking jumper.

I can't get my knickers in a twist over this. But I can see why some might.

 

[ycbm]

I don’t see how it’s damaging the sport.

It's damaging the sport because people who don't understand what you understand are seeing and commenting on the videos believing it is cruel to cause that behaviour.

If it happens often enough, then high level equestrian sport will, I think, eventually disappear, possibly to be followed, long term, by riding a live animal at all.

The horse is a stunning jumper. If she can't attend a prize giving without that spectacle then for the sake of the sport he needs dispensation to attend on foot or on another horse.
.

 

[DabDab]

I agree with TPO that I think it is good that more people are asking these questions and that the horse community needs to not be precious about the fact that people are asking them. And if you are a professional who is riding a horse like this I think you need to be fully prepared to answer questions on what is being/has been done to try to alleviate the reasons the horse gets that massive adrenaline spike that is so obvious for everyone watching to see. If it's just their temperament then you need to be able to back that up with what other investigations/training approaches have been tried.

 

[Cortez]

I agree with TPO that I think it is good that more people are asking these questions and that the horse community needs to not be precious about the fact that people are asking them. And if you are a professional who is riding a horse like this I think you need to be fully prepared to answer questions on what is being/has been done to try to alleviate the reasons the horse gets that massive adrenaline spike that is so obvious for everyone watching to see. If it's just their temperament then you need to be able to back that up with what other investigations/training approaches have been tried.

Is that not what he is doing by giving the interview and answering the questions though?

 

[Rowreach]

I agree with TPO that I think it is good that more people are asking these questions and that the horse community needs to not be precious about the fact that people are asking them. And if you are a professional who is riding a horse like this I think you need to be fully prepared to answer questions on what is being/has been done to try to alleviate the reasons the horse gets that massive adrenaline spike that is so obvious for everyone watching to see. If it's just their temperament then you need to be able to back that up with what other investigations/training approaches have been tried.

This, and maybe not subject it to the prize giving.

To address the adrenaline spike point, (not aiming this at you DabDab, but others who have raised it), I challenge anyone to accurately state whether that is a horse that is thinking "wow I just won a competition I wonder if I'll get to jump again now" or a horse who is in total meltdown at the stressfulness of the situation that it has been put in. However wise and knowledgeable they think they are.

 

[DabDab]

Is that not what he is doing by giving the interview and answering the questions though?

I don't know, I haven't seen the full interview, maybe he says more than is shown on that clipped together edit. I got the impression that he would actually liked to have been a lot more candid about what they've tried with this mare but he was holding back.

I wasn't talking specifically about him though, just generally

 

[Cortez]

This, and maybe not subject it to the prize giving.

To address the adrenaline spike point, (not aiming this at you DabDab, but others who have raised it), I challenge anyone to accurately state whether that is a horse that is thinking "wow I just won a competition I wonder if I'll get to jump again now" or a horse who is in total meltdown at the stressfulness of the situation that it has been put in. However wise and knowledgeable they think they are.

Absolutely not subject the poor thing to the prizegiving, but I think that at some competitions it is a requirement to ride the horse in the ring for prize giving, not that I agree with it.

I don't think anyone can say what is going on in the horse's mind. I wonder if she is like that in the collecting ring, or going in to jump. Plenty of people upthread have described their horses being quite overwhelmed until they are pointed at a jump.

 

[stangs]

I don't think anyone can say what is going on in the horse's mind. I wonder if she is like that in the collecting ring, or going in to jump. Plenty of people upthread have described their horses being quite overwhelmed until they are pointed at a jump.

The issue is that more and more people don't think a horse being overwhelmed/experiencing high levels of stress for sport is acceptable, even if for short periods. So the options then become either removing the horse from sport (which may not be in their rider nor the horse's best interests), or doing something to reduce those levels of stress (except the interview doesn't suggest he's doing anything to do that, hence the criticism).

 

[TheMule]

Absolutely not subject the poor thing to the prizegiving, but I think that at some competitions it is a requirement to ride the horse in the ring for prize giving, not that I agree with it.

I don't think anyone can say what is going on in the horse's mind. I wonder if she is like that in the collecting ring, or going in to jump. Plenty of people upthread have described their horses being quite overwhelmed until they are pointed at a jump.

There are loads of his rounds available to watch on CMH.
From what I can see at this show, he trots her in, quite relaxed, doesn’t spend too long before getting going and the mare walks out on a loose rein. When he wins the class and there’s lots of cheering she isn’t stressed, canters round with her ears pricked. But when she comes in for the prize giving she is stressed. He gets off her very quickly and the handlers take her away from the podium.

 

[Cortez]

The issue is that more and more people don't think a horse being overwhelmed/experiencing high levels of stress for sport is acceptable, even if for short periods. So the options then become either removing the horse from sport (which may not be in their rider nor the horse's best interests), or doing something to reduce those levels of stress (except the interview doesn't suggest he's doing anything to do that, hence the criticism).

Actually I agree; if the horse was mine I wouldn't ride it in the situations which are clearly overwhelming it, but I don't feel moved to criticise the rider for doing so. I don't like a lot of the things people do with and to horses, but short of outright cruelty and abuse there will always be people who have differing views on what is or is not acceptable.

 

[stangs]

Karl Cook's response

Given that she's a talented mare, I don't know how easy it would be to prove that her performance isn't compromised at all through rankings alone.

 

[AntiPuck]

Karl Cook's response

Given that she's a talented mare, I don't know how easy it would be to prove that her performance isn't compromised at all through rankings alone.

I don't think the "she performs well so she can't be that stressed" is a good argument nor defence, really.

We know that even in humans - who arguably have way more control over their environments, in most cases, than a horse - that we can deal with stress for a good while, maybe even years, and even outperform whilst doing so but that sure as hell doesn't mean that is isn't doing damage, nor that it doesn't feel awful at the time, either. Burnout, mental breakdowns, chronic illnesses (physical and mental), addictions, etc are often the result. You don't sustain high stress long-term and not also sustain damage.

Ultimately, the horse doesn't give a toss about its performance, it does care about avoiding extreme stress. I don't know this guy or this horse, but this is exactly the sort of thing that is going to turn more and more people against horse sports. Doesn't look good at all.

 

[ycbm]

I don't think the "she performs well so she can't be that stressed" is a good argument nor defence, really.

We know that even in humans - who arguably have way more control over their environments, in most cases, than a horse - that we can deal with stress for a good while, maybe even years, and even outperform whilst doing so but that sure as hell doesn't mean that is isn't doing damage, nor that it doesn't feel awful at the time, either. Burnout, mental breakdowns, chronic illnesses (physical and mental), addictions, etc are often the result. You don't sustain high stress long-term and not also sustain damage.

Ultimately, the horse doesn't give a toss about its performance, it does care about avoiding extreme stress. I don't know this guy or this horse, but this is exactly the sort of thing that is going to turn more and more people against horse sports. Doesn't look good at all.

I don't think that's what he means AP. I think he means since she's so talented that she wins, it's impossible to prove she would win "better" if she was less stressed.

He seems like a really good guy to me, just making a mistake in continuing to subject her, and his staff, to prize ceremonies.

 

[DabDab]

Not a great response from him tbh

Personally I have no problem at all with believing that this horse is happy as Larry while doing her 'job'. A good number of high performing horses, much like a good number of high performing people are so driven and focussed on their 'job' because it's the place they find structure, and rules and clarity and they cling onto it like a limpet because they struggle to cope with certain aspects of life outside that structure.

It doesn't mean that you shouldn't keep trying to help a horse deal with those situations that stress it out or take them out of the situation if you can't help them deal with it.

 

[southerncomfort]

While I don't like seeing a horse that wound up/upset, he seems like a good guy who genuinely cares about the horse. I suspect it upsets him too to see her like that.

I'd be interested to know what she's fed. And her breeding. Could just be that she's the end product of a succession of highly strung horses.

 

[AntiPuck]

I don't think that's what he means AP. I think he means since she's so talented that she wins, it's impossible to prove she would win "better" if she was less stressed.

Doesn't this amount to the same attitude, though - she's performing well so the stress isn't seen as an issue.

 

[ycbm]

Doesn't this amount to the same attitude, though - she's performing well so the stress isn't seen as an issue.

I think not, if the stress relates only to prize givings. Just stop putting her in prize givings.
.

 

[ycbm]

I've seen other horses which have to be led into the ring or they can't get them in. That, I think, is very difficult to defend.
.

 

[AntiPuck]

I think not, if the stress relates only to prize givings. Just stop putting her in prize givings.
.

Sure, but they haven't done that, they've put 3 handlers on her instead and carried-on.

 

[ycbm]

Sure, but they haven't done that, they've put 3 handlers on her instead and carried-on.

Yes and it's time that the FEI stepped in and stopped this nonsense, if it's compulsory for her to be there. The optics of this are dire for the sport. If its not compulsory, then he's been a bit stupid, imo.
.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

If she is fine and relaxed at home, fine doing her job and the only thing she boils over about is prize giving then obviously she should be exempt from those. But if she can't be (which should change on welfare grounds but that is not up to Karl), is anyone seriously saying that sucking up stress for a minute or 2 once every few weeks within an otherwise happy, healthy life is cruel and she'd be better off being shot? As that is really her only alternative. She can't be a leisure horse. She is unlikely to suit retirement. Not really a good candidate to breed from. And so could only be sold to another pro who would have exactly the same issues. Or shot. I think she is very lucky to have found a job she excels at which gives her a life that suits her. And a pro as considerate as Karl. And I think the witch hunt from arm chair critics (not on here which has been balanced but on social media which has been vitriolic) is unfair.

I appreciate the need for 'social licence' but we can go too far in deciding that if FB or twitter get a head of steam up about something then that drives change. Sometimes people need to wind their necks in. Trial by key-board warrior is the very worst way to move forward. The loudest most extreme voices of criticism and bile being the ones who direct the direction and pace of change is not a situation I feel is healthy or helpful. Look at all those people sacked because twitter said so and now winning unfair dismissal cases via the courts! They win because their frenzy -led sackings were always disporportionate and unfair. Or people losing sponsorship deals etc because of 'optics' not because they really did anything wrong.

The videos don't look good and I am sure they are doing everything to help her learn to cope but there is no evidence she is stressed while actually competing or that she is an unhappy horse or in pain.

 

[tristar]

While I don't like seeing a horse that wound up/upset, he seems like a good guy who genuinely cares about the horse. I suspect it upsets him too to see her like that.

I'd be interested to know what she's fed. And her breeding. Could just be that she's the end product of a succession of highly strung horses.

she is out of a mare by flipper d`elle, so i would expect her to be, erm, all there all the time

i`m not sure if she trusts that man, although he does let her get on with it

some horses just get themselves in a tis, domination may play a part

would be interesting to know her diet, and turnout routine

 

[MagicMelon]

Winning at a high level like that, would usually mean a horse has a whole team of professionals working to keep them sound and happy. She jumps well, with relatively smooth rounds. I have seen far worse in terms of horse behaviour in the ring. Maybe the owner wants to see her in the prize giving and that is why they persist in trying - or it’s the rules of the show, or…

I honestly do not think the levels of welfare are necessarily any better at the high levels, if anything I think its quite often worse! I havent seen much of this horse to be honest, Im guessing they have tried to settle her and work on it but perhaps they could ask to not attend prize givings before an accident happens.

 

[DabDab]

If she is fine and relaxed at home, fine doing her job and the only thing she boils over about is prize giving then obviously she should be exempt from those. But if she can't be (which should change on welfare grounds but that is not up to Karl), is anyone seriously saying that sucking up stress for a minute or 2 once every few weeks within an otherwise happy, healthy life is cruel and she'd be better off being shot? As that is really her only alternative. She can't be a leisure horse. She is unlikely to suit retirement. Not really a good candidate to breed from. And so could only be sold to another pro who would have exactly the same issues. Or shot. I think she is very lucky to have found a job she excels at which gives her a life that suits her. And a pro as considerate as Karl. And I think the witch hunt from arm chair critics (not on here which has been balanced but on social media which has been vitriolic) is unfair.

I appreciate the need for 'social licence' but we can go too far in deciding that if FB or twitter get a head of steam up about something then that drives change. Sometimes people need to wind their necks in. Trial by key-board warrior is the very worst way to move forward. The loudest most extreme voices of criticism and bile being the ones who direct the direction and pace of change is not a situation I feel is healthy or helpful. Look at all those people sacked because twitter said so and now winning unfair dismissal cases via the courts! They win because their frenzy -led sackings were always disporportionate and unfair. Or people losing sponsorship deals etc because of 'optics' not because they really did anything wrong.

The videos don't look good and I am sure they are doing everything to help her learn to cope but there is no evidence she is stressed while actually competing or that she is an unhappy horse or in pain.

The better alternative would be to come up with a better way to explain the situation and the horse than 'yeah but she wins classes'

"We are absolutely looking into the reasons that Kalika gets overwhelmed during prize givings and I will be contracting a range of top professionals to review this. However, during the jumping itself all professionals who have assessed her to date agree that she is a happy and high functioning athlete in that respect."

Or something to that effect.

 

[stangs]

The better alternative would be to come up with a better way to explain the situation and the horse than 'yeah but she wins classes'

"We are absolutely looking into the reasons that Kalika gets overwhelmed during prize givings and I will be contracting a range of top professionals to review this. However, during the jumping itself all professionals who have assessed her to date agree that she is a happy and high functioning athlete in that respect."

Or something to that effect.

This.

If he'd acknowledged that there are things to improve on, and replaced the unneeded and defensive-sounding "attention-seeking"/"you've attacked me personally"/"you made my groom cry" comments with something like "the team and I appreciate your concern for Kalinka, however...", that would have been the end of it.

 

[RachelFerd]

If she is fine and relaxed at home, fine doing her job and the only thing she boils over about is prize giving then obviously she should be exempt from those. But if she can't be (which should change on welfare grounds but that is not up to Karl), is anyone seriously saying that sucking up stress for a minute or 2 once every few weeks within an otherwise happy, healthy life is cruel and she'd be better off being shot? As that is really her only alternative. She can't be a leisure horse. She is unlikely to suit retirement. Not really a good candidate to breed from. And so could only be sold to another pro who would have exactly the same issues. Or shot. I think she is very lucky to have found a job she excels at which gives her a life that suits her. And a pro as considerate as Karl. And I think the witch hunt from arm chair critics (not on here which has been balanced but on social media which has been vitriolic) is unfair.

I appreciate the need for 'social licence' but we can go too far in deciding that if FB or twitter get a head of steam up about something then that drives change. Sometimes people need to wind their necks in. Trial by key-board warrior is the very worst way to move forward. The loudest most extreme voices of criticism and bile being the ones who direct the direction and pace of change is not a situation I feel is healthy or helpful. Look at all those people sacked because twitter said so and now winning unfair dismissal cases via the courts! They win because their frenzy -led sackings were always disporportionate and unfair. Or people losing sponsorship deals etc because of 'optics' not because they really did anything wrong.

The videos don't look good and I am sure they are doing everything to help her learn to cope but there is no evidence she is stressed while actually competing or that she is an unhappy horse or in pain.

Not sure about 'not a good candidate to breed from' - she's a mega talented showjumper - I don't think you'd use being bad at prizegivings as a reason not to breed. Unless there's more to that than I know about?!

I've not followed this closely, I don't understand why dispensation to not attend prize givings can't be given. It would solve the issues of publice perception and allow the horse to carry on doing what she's good at, without unneccessary stress.

If we were seeing scenes of excessive force being used to get her in the ring to jump (which you see all the time - even at tiny unaffiliated shows) I'd be more worried about it.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Re breeding I guess my thinking was that she is so highly strung that she has few options. But luckily one is winning Grand Prix classes! A less talented but equally wired or a more wired horse may be no use to anyone.