Kalinka

[maya2008]

I had a Welsh B once who could not, if her life depended on it, stand still without being anxious in a ‘competition’ setting. I went out weekly, replicated it all at home, spent hour upon hour upon hour desensitising her to everything I could - and yet still she spooked, was tense, hated to stand still away from home. She’d had a decent foalhood, been backed by a pro (which went really wrong due to the above anxiety), made it to a ridden pony with me and spent two years learning not to rear every time she was asked to stand (full vet check included just in case). I tried every discipline under the sun that I was familiar with - but though she tried, none of them were really for her.

Then I sold her to a lady who wanted to do mounted games on her, and she found her niche. Reared like the Lloyds stallion while waiting to start, every time, but LOVED her work, was very successful and her new owner didn’t mind the rearing. Best thing ever was going to watch her, seeing her absolute joy in her new job, her bond with her owner and her total happiness. Based on this thread, she was apparently unhappy and should have been shot - because she reared at the start of each game. She shone with happiness though, clearly loved what she was doing. Those few minutes of anxiety were definitely not ruining her life as a whole.

 

[tristar]

This, and maybe not subject it to the prize giving.

To address the adrenaline spike point, (not aiming this at you DabDab, but others who have raised it), I challenge anyone to accurately state whether that is a horse that is thinking "wow I just won a competition I wonder if I'll get to jump again now" or a horse who is in total meltdown at the stressfulness of the situation that it has been put in. However wise and knowledgeable they think they are.

she probably did it once with someone who did not correct the behavior, and it escalated from there

 

[SantaVera]

maybe Kalinka thinks that once in the arena she shouldd be jumping fences and isnt so she shows her annoyance at this.

 

[Abi90]

I have found this fascinating from a human interaction standpoint.

On the horse: doesn’t like the prize giving, looks happy jumping. Horses can still jump when in pain but maybe she just doesn’t like the prize giving. Should they try and make her life easier? Yes. I think so.

On his reply: wasn’t the best. Comes across as if he is trying to defend his position rather than allay fears. Then proceeds to refute scientific evidence by well respected vets, if it doesn’t apply to this horse how many other horses does he think it doesn’t apply to. As someone else had said a “thank you to the commentator, we have been and continue to look into her behaviour in the prize giving to make life less stressful for her”… instead he’s made himself look decidedly shady.

No idea who he was before today, but my first impression of him hasn’t been great!

 

[Rowreach]

Quite long but worth a read

https://horsenetwork.com/2022/12/le...mO3zQL8lgfgaFqhwjhg-w_0o4U#Echobox=1671732860

 

[DabDab]

Based on this thread, she was apparently unhappy and should have been shot - because she reared at the start of each game. She shone with happiness though, clearly loved what she was doing. Those few minutes of anxiety were definitely not ruining her life as a whole.

Has anyone said that on this thread though? I'm not going to re-read every reply but I don't feel like they have.

Personally I think that there is quite an obvious difference between a horse that has a generally effervescent way of being and one that is just physically expressing stress. In the same way as my dog spinning circles because I'm putting my walking boots on is fine, but if she was doing it while we were all just sat in the living room watching telly then I would be concerned.

And why as a community do we always reach for the 'oh so they would be better off shot then' comment? It's a really weak argument, does nothing for the whole social license thing, and yet it comes up several times on any thread about an ethical horsemanship issue.

 

[southerncomfort]

Quite long but worth a read

https://horsenetwork.com/2022/12/le...mO3zQL8lgfgaFqhwjhg-w_0o4U#Echobox=1671732860

Excellent interview. Thanks for posting.

 

[Cortez]

Quite long but worth a read

https://horsenetwork.com/2022/12/le...mO3zQL8lgfgaFqhwjhg-w_0o4U#Echobox=1671732860

Yep, agree with every word of that.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Renate Larssen is excellent. Thank you for sharing.

 

[sbloom]

I read that this morning, so good there is objective discussion about this, it's inevitable that many people still normalise this level of distress but things are changing, slowly.

 

[Kunoichi73]

Thank you for sharing that link. Her stuff is fascinating.

 

[SibeliusMB]

My general thoughts, in no particular order, and from a position of not knowing the rider, the horse, the management etc.


- Some horses behave like this through pain/fear etc - but there are plenty that are just hardwired like that, training their brain takes considerable experience and skill and there are bound to be mistakes made along the way

- This is the type of horse that needs very careful management and a job. If it doesn't have that then the other option is possibly a bullet.

The bullet comment is unnecessary.

More and more research is coming out and more and more good horsemanship trainers are realizing that there are no "hardwired" difficult horses. There are horses that are experiencing pain, or stress, or fear, or feel isolated, confused, frustrated, or otherwise do not feel safe and secure in their environment. They are prey animals.

As a herd animal the mare finds safety in security not just in the presence of others, but the shared connection and awareness against threats and dangers. Here, the people around her do not seem to recognize the perceived threat that the horse sees; not only are they acting unaware, they're dragging the horse into it. This creates additional stress as now the horse does not get that sense of safety in numbers and feels she must protect herself, and acts out accordingly.

Horses' brains do not need to be trained to just accept their circumstances and "deal with it." That mentality creates shut down horses. We, as the alleged more intelligent species, need to help create less stressful environments and help the horses feel more connected, safe, and secure.

I agree that an easy, ethical step would be to not take Kalinka to future prize giving if allowed. It's clearly stressing her out and is not necessary. If not allowed per the rules (which should be changed...) then a great deal of work needs to be done on the ground to educate the handlers on how to work on connection and help the horse process how to manage her own emotions and stay under threshold. However, that is a lot of homework to be done in in quiet environments that probably isn't realistic for a horse living on the show circuit, sadly. I guess we'll see where priorities lie, both for Kalinka's team and the competition management staff.

I do respect Karl, I think he's been one of the few to call out idiotic or unnecessary behavior/values in the horse world. That said, that makes his response even more disappointing. He came across as highly emotionally charged and taking it as a personal attack versus helping to educate about his program. I highly doubt that Kalinka's issue is physical pain. Lots of other valid explanations for the behavior from the Horse Network article. I think Karl will do better.

Those clips are a really bad look and can easily be spun by animal rights groups to erode public favor of horse sports. Heck...you don't even need PeTA anymore, these things go viral on their own. It's good to remember that we, the equestrian community, do not control the perception of our actions on the public. The public decides social license, not us. All we can do is continue to learn, educate others, and change practices accordingly to enhance the care and well-being of our horses.

 

[Cortez]

More and more research is coming out and more and more good horsemanship trainers are realizing that there are no "hardwired" difficult horses. There are horses that are experiencing pain, or stress, or fear, or feel isolated, confused, frustrated, or otherwise do not feel safe and secure in their environment. They are prey animals.

As a herd animal the mare finds safety in security not just in the presence of others, but the shared connection and awareness against threats and dangers. Here, the people around her do not seem to recognize the perceived threat that the horse sees; not only are they acting unaware, they're dragging the horse into it. This creates additional stress as now the horse does not get that sense of safety in numbers and feels she must protect herself, and acts out accordingly.

I don't agree with these two statements. 1. There most certainly are "hardwired" differences in horses' temperaments which can make them difficult to train, you only need to look at sensitive, reactive TB's, PRE's and Arabians, VS laid back types like draft horses, cobs, etc. (and yes, of course I know there are many exceptions within those breeds/types of horse).

2. The horse is also alone when going in to jump, so obviously your second statement doesn't hold true.

 

[SibeliusMB]

More and more research is coming out and more and more good horsemanship trainers are realizing that there are no "hardwired" difficult horses. There are horses that are experiencing pain, or stress, or fear, or feel isolated, confused, frustrated, or otherwise do not feel safe and secure in their environment. They are prey animals.

As a herd animal the mare finds safety in security not just in the presence of others, but the shared connection and awareness against threats and dangers. Here, the people around her do not seem to recognize the perceived threat that the horse sees; not only are they acting unaware, they're dragging the horse into it. This creates additional stress as now the horse does not get that sense of safety in numbers and feels she must protect herself, and acts out accordingly.

I don't agree with these two statements. 1. There most certainly are "hardwired" differences in horses' temperaments which can make them difficult to train, you only need to look at sensitive, reactive TB's, PRE's and Arabians, VS laid back types like draft horses, cobs, etc. (and yes, of course I know there are many exceptions within those breeds/types of horse).

2. The horse is also alone when going in to jump, so obviously your second statement doesn't hold true.

Go back to the article about trigger stacking and put it in the context of a prize giving ceremony, after two rounds of jumping in an intimidating environment and absolutely the horse can not feel safe in secure in the same arena 10 minutes later.

Again, just because the horse goes in and jumps around doesn't mean it's not experiencing or absorbing stress.

I said hardwired in the context of a horse acting out dangerously like in those short clips of Kalinka. This isn't about which breeds are naturally quieter than others. Horses react to their environment and what they feel. Horses aren't "hardwired " to be difficult and dangerous like some people want to believe. Humans put them in stressful positions and then ignore those small stress indicators, which leads to explosive behavior from the horse. Then the humans blame the horse.

We need to do better and be better.

 

[Cortez]

Go back to the article about trigger stacking and put it in the context of a prize giving ceremony, after two rounds of jumping in an intimidating environment and absolutely the horse can not feel safe in secure in the same arena 10 minutes later.

Again, just because the horse goes in and jumps around doesn't mean it's not experiencing or absorbing stress.

I said hardwired in the context of a horse acting out dangerously like in those short clips of Kalinka. This isn't about which breeds are naturally quieter than others. Horses react to their environment and what they feel. Horses aren't "hardwired " to be difficult and dangerous like some people want to believe. Humans put them in stressful positions and then ignore those small stress indicators, which leads to explosive behavior from the horse. Then the humans blame the horse.

We need to do better and be better.

You miss my point. Every horse is absolutely hardwired to be more or less reactive according to their own temperament, which in turn will dictate how each individually reacts to any given situation. Horses are subject to stress continually; how they react is down to each particular horse and it's training. I don't think anyone is blaming Kalinka for how she is reacting; if anything they are blaming the rider for putting her in to a situation which she plainly cannot cope with. However, the majority of horses do cope in that situation, so the solution is easy - don't ride horses which cannot cope with prize givings in prize givings.

 

[SibeliusMB]

You miss my point as well. I was not referring specifically to Kalinka in the last paragraph of my recent post. Many times I have heard horses be described as dangerous, difficult, naughty, etc when their explosive behavior isn't due to the sensitivity of their individual nature, but because their human repeatedly set them up to fail by not preparing them properly or ignoring the subtle signs the horse was giving. The human then turned around and blamed their nature instead of examining how they contributed to the problem.

And we do agree...as I said in my first post, Kalinka really ought to be allowed to skip prize givings, especially if she is so sensitive and the team doesn't or cannot take the time to step back and address the underlying issues.

 

[Rowreach]

Those "laid back" breeds are still experiencing the stressors, and will be internalising in a way which is not necessarily better for them than the "highly strung" breeds which show overt behaviours.

 

[Cortez]

Those "laid back" breeds are still experiencing the stressors, and will be internalising in a way which is not necessarily better for them than the "highly strung" breeds which show overt behaviours.

True, but very little that we do with horses - riding wise - is actually to their benefit.

 

[tda]

Quite long but worth a read

https://horsenetwork.com/2022/12/le...mO3zQL8lgfgaFqhwjhg-w_0o4U#Echobox=1671732860

Just read that and agree with all of it, I thought the questions from Renate Larssen were very diplomatic and I hope the owners of Kalinka get something from the discussion

 

[sbloom]

I've seen work that unwinds these types of horses, they are not hard-wired to behave anywhere near like this, some are more sensitive but even those that are more sensitive from birth can improve a ton, and often there's a good reason ie birth trauma for why they're so reactive.

 

[Rowreach]

True, but very little that we do with horses - riding wise - is actually to their benefit.

Agreed, but I think it's important that anyone involved in handling or riding them understands that just because a horse appears quiet it's not automatically accepting and comfortable with what's being asked of it.

 

[Cortez]

Agreed, but I think it's important that anyone involved in handling or riding them understands that just because a horse appears quiet it's not automatically accepting and comfortable with what's being asked of it.

Likewise completely agree.