Kalli being PTS next week. Hard decision: is it the right one?

Kallibear

Kallibear

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Thoughts and suggestions welcome: someone might come up with the magic answer:(

As background, esp as I've not been on here for a while:

Kalli is a 10yr old 16.3 HW hunter. I bought her with her young owner 5yrs ago and since then have competed, schooled, cared from her, taught her owner on her etc etc. Her owner rides my horse too. Her owner's parents pay for Kalli but she's always been more of 'our' horse.

Kalli's never moved well and she's stroppy and nappy and for a good while we've felt there's something wrong. It's all recently come to head and now a very hard decision has to be made.

It's a long and complicated story so here's her intial problem and here's part of the investigation that didn't go too well.

Anyways, it's taken a while to get going: I broke my arm (not Kalli related!) and her owner was chucked off her and broke her hand, meaning neither of us could ride.

To try and summaries:

After the initail bute trial she never reverted back to Nice Kalli.

We changed her routine to try and suit her as best as poss and tried another bute trial: same result and now too dangerous to ride. Referal vet insisted her behaviour was just naughty and therefore wouldn't do anything else, test-wise.

Made a huge fuss and had a practise vet out to do a morphine and flunxin trial at home: huge difference to movement (but not behaviour) so hospital vet agreed to do further tests.

Bone scans showed a hot spot in her neck but nothing else at all.

Flexion tests showed her to be very very stiff on one side of her neck, which they think is an old injury and the start of the pain.

Xrays show arthritis in her neck, which apparently is 'common' in big horses her ages (?!)

Vet poked her back a couple of times with a pen and proclaimed her back to be 'fine'.

Vet won't investigate the lameness on her front leg: she's not shod (beautiful, galloping-over-rubble feet) so that's obviously the cause of her lameness on in one direction in a circle on a hard flat smooth suface?! ( :mad: makes me furious)

Basically the vet thinks her neck was the cause of the pain but now it's mostly healed and it's just now bad behaviour. They won't account for her reaction to the morphine and flunixin and they won't can't (won't?) say how much pain she is still in.

The two options that have given is to either have her PTS (injury isn't fixable and arthritis will just get worse) or give her to the ILPH (World Horse Welfare as they are now) and let them reschool her out of it.

Furious doesn't even cover it! Whilst I agree her behaviour is mostly learned, we think she IS still sore. But they just won't beleive us. It's arbitury whether they beleive us now thought: the neck problem is not fixable.

However, how much is unfixable bone pain and how much is compensatory muscle pain from a long time of protecting the injury we won't know. We both think she currently is in quite a bit of pain: on the flunixin and morphine she was a much happier, relaxed horse: she stood different, she moved differently, she breathed different but they're only something you'd see if you know her well.

She's going to a friends (an AI specialist vet) on the way home from the vets tommorow afternoon for an ovary scan, just in case.

The only option left is physio but the vet is currently being very difficult about refering her (he seems to be rather dissmissive of it?) and the insurance won't pay unless the vet refers (nor will the physio take her without a referal).

The sad and sorry upshot it I think it's the end of the line for her. Her behaviour under saddle is far too dangerous to allow to continue as she is. We both feel it's pain related and therefore won't send her for any form of reschooling until we're happy she's pain free. WHW is not an option (we don't beleive in dumping broken horses on them when they could be helping neglected horses). She's too aggressive to other horses, and has too much seperation anxiety to retire to be a companion horse. She will only leave our possesion as ashes: she will never be rehomed as she's not safe and it's irresponsible and cruel.

I hope the physio will be able to dissect how much is pain and how much is behaviour, but not if the vet won't refer her and even then I don't think we'd truely believe she's painfree: they could fix the muscle pain side but how much bone pain does she have?

Maybe the ovary scan will show something (which would be lovely: an ovarian cyst would account of much of her behaviour). And we're going to dicuss physio when we pick her up.

But I think she's going to be PTS on Monday, after a trip to the beach (her favourite place in the world) :(

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WHW won't take her anyway hun. I don't think your vet can refuse to refer. Insist, even if the referral letter is patronising and less than helpful. Poor lass - is she happy in her field? Does she seem in pain then? Wondered if she might find a job as a reliable companion/nanny? I know all the concerns about selling her as a companion then seeing her 2 weeks later advertised as a talented 3-day eventer, but it might be an option.
 
From what I can make out from your posts, its seems that Kalli is in pain, but yuur vet has been unable to find the cause of it, but they are reluctant to refer on?
That seems sad that your horse is going to be pts, I wonder if shes had the best chance TBH?
Im really not trying to upset you, I just think I would get another vet to do a full work up on her, not just poke her with a pen, like you said.
Also, I'm wondering if you"ve considered trying her on something like devils claw?
Like i say, I'm not trying to make you feel bad, I wish you all the best whatever decision you make
Kx
 
If your vet is refusing to take you seriously why not just get a second opinion to refer?or third preferably from a different practice or if possible one of the vet schools...a new set of eyes and a fresh approach may be helpful.Or have ye tried that already and I missed it in the post?

Ring up another equine vet ask them to come see your horse with a view to refer to an equine hospital.Include the name of the other vet when sending in the horse and the the hospital can then ask the original vet for the records of treatment.He has to give the records to them.

However the other issue is that if a new vet/vet hospital does discover what is wrong the chances of it being an easy to treat condition seem low as it sounds like an unusual case ye could end up in the same situation of considering PTS.

But if she is still insured..or money is no issue( needs to be said seeing as people may otherwise think Im trying to fleese the insurance..im not i just think that referral can work out very very expensive)...I would be pressing for another referral to an university vet school hospital.It seems a waste to have a horse PTS due to a lack of a vets referral letter..or have i completely misunderstood the post?
 
You can go on paying out and paying out and getting nowhere. In the present economic climate it is essential that the number of horses around the world is reduced dramatically. Why spend a lot of money when you could buy another horse that would suit you better? In my opinion (and I have done this myself) it is better for the horse to be shot humanely at home and put to rest (let the dead stock man take the body - the spirit has no need of the body then). Horses live in the moment and she could well be in a lot of pain. Don't feel guilty, you are doing this FOR her. Hugs.
 
Well, it's not a decision you are taking lightly and I totally feel for you. The frustration of knowing there has to be an underlying cause which can't be pinpointed is dreadful. Are you satisfied with the examination results and what is your gut feeling? DO you think there is an underlying and fixable issue and why won't the vets refer you? If there's insurance money available I'd be tempted to use it, as long as from day to day Kalli is apparently comfortable. Ulcers ought to be checked for and as you say, ovarian pain. Could it be sacro-illiac/pelvic? The movement you describe is that of a severely compromised horse which is in at least one sort of pain.

You know she can move freely and differently but it's your call as to whether you continue the search for the source of the restriction, or call it a day on her behalf. I think you have done more than most would have and she's had a safe and happy life with you.

I wish I could help with a possible answer, but have to make do with wishing you well with whatever you decide and hope her day at the beach is fun for you all.
 
You have said yourself that she is in pain, some of which is not fixable and will get worse and that being a companion horse is not an option (even if you kept her I presume?) it does sound like you have decided what is best.

Yes there may be some unanswered questions, there always will be if there is no obvious cure but how much money and different experts can you go through to come back to the same or similar conclusion which is that she can't be ridden?

If you have had no faith at all in your vet and have the cash then seek further investigations but is a physio going to sort all the issues, meanwhile you have a horse in pain.

I don't think devils claw will make a difference when the horse has been prescribed flunixin, morphine and bute
 
You have said yourself that she is in pain, some of which is not fixable and will get worse and that being a companion horse is not an option (even if you kept her I presume?) it does sound like you have decided what is best.

Yes there may be some unanswered questions, there always will be if there is no obvious cure but how much money and different experts can you go through to come back to the same or similar conclusion which is that she can't be ridden?

If you have had no faith at all in your vet and have the cash then seek further investigations but is a physio going to sort all the issues, meanwhile you have a horse in pain.

I don't think devils claw will make a difference when the horse has been prescribed flunixin, morphine and bute to be fair.

Really feel for you however, your head must a real mush with it all as well as coming to terms with loosing a good horse, ((hugs))
 
Sympathies with you but must question your vets, when I had my vets out last week and he said mare had to be put down as partially paralysed didn't question as trust vets, broke my heart but couldn't let mare suffer, but haven't found replacement yet and how long do nfu take to pay, trust of vets ins very important.
 
If you genuinely feel that she is in pain and her behaviour is pain related not just mardy mare moods and that pain can not be sufficiently or realistically controlled by drugs then I believe you have made the right decision to pts. If the pain can be controlled and she would make a good companion or you have a particularly strong emotional attachment with her AND you can sensibly fund a retired horse then she could just have a few years to spend in a field to see how fast deterioration happens or as sometimes happens stops.

However not many of us have the means or the strong need to fund retired horses who have chronic long term degenerative illnesses and specifically ones who can get dangerous in their behaviour. Some may say that this is selfish and in harsh terms is seen as 'not wanting a horse that can no longer do a job' and having been in a similar situation I found this to be worse issue to deal with, however I could not keep throwing huge amounts of money and time away on a horse to the detriment of my family. You can keep getting different opinions from different vets and having different diagnosis and treatments but only you will know kalli well enough to know if anything is working or whether she is improving. We did a lot with my boy but he never improved and his grumpiness increased and I knew that as much as I loved him it was always going to be a struggle for BOTH of us in the future. Some decisions are hard but the fact they are hard means you have usually given it very very careful consideration and most likely are making the right decision.

The horses won't know, don't have a concept of the decision you have made. Being in pain they are however aware of....

Big hugs to you x
 
Just go to a different vet, its your right to ask for another opinion not your vets. After all its your horses life you are talking about. If it is a case ofher being in pain that cant be fixed thn pts may be right, but if it was me I would want to know for sure.
 
Thank you for the replies.

Since it's been such a long case it's hard to get all the info down without writting an even longer epic.

This vet IS the referal vet and the second one at that. It is the biggest vet hospital in Scotland: she's already seem 3 seperate practise vets before this. :o

Insurance has been one of the biggest issues: the insurance company won't cover 'behavioural issue', only illness and injury, which is why it's been so important to get the vet to agree it's not just her being naughty. After the first lot of tests (and £1000's later) the vet said it was just behavioural and the insurance wouldn't pay up. Now it's been continued and they've found there IS actually something wrong (and more £1000's later) it should now all be covered. Whilst it's sad, money is going to be the deciding factor, esp as it's her owner's (not particualrly horsey nor rich) parents paying for it all.

We're happy with the neck diagnosis: it rings true with her behaviour. We also think there's something else going on, but probably related to the neck. What we don't know: it's not her legs (had them all xrayed last time) and it's not kissing spine (also had that xrayed).

We're not happy that they beleive she's no longer in pain (or much anyways) and should just be schooled out of it.

I also think it's irresonsible to suggest giving her away to a welfare charity.

I'm cross they won't xray her foot but I don't really think it'll make much difference to the outcomes :o

I am however furious they won't even suggest physio and don't seem to feel it won't help: if they don't believe there's much pain left, and it's mostly a momoery of pain, surely physio would be PERFECT for teaching her to re-use her body properly?!!!?

However I can't go about getting a referal in the wrong way as it need to be covered by insurance: the type she would need is 6 weeks away at the pysio's yard (we have a specialist rehabilitition physio not far from here) and it will be EXPENSIVE. The insurance covers it if the vet will reccomened it as a form of treatment.

But then we don't know how much pain, and what type, she really has.

Retirement is not an option: too expensive to be a useless pet (sad but true) and she can't be a companion. She will never be sold on for someone else to retire as it's too much of a risk.

I think we know what's the right decisison for her but it's hard when the vets won't beleive us. :(
 
Having been through 6 months of hell and very similar to your story. My young WB was very aggressive on the ground and got progressively worse ridden - last time ridden in January when he bucked several times over his ears.

In a nutshell everyone kept telling me it was 'bad behaviour' and I got badly bitten. BUT I had him scoped in January and several low grade stomach ulcers were found - I knew these were not bad enought to cause the behaviour.

I then spent the best £100 ever on an iridology report, a communication with my horse and a shiatsu therapy session for him and ALL THREE said he had an old right hand hind injury and there was a misalignment around his pelvis!!

I got him referred for a bone scan to Newmarket (needed confirmation for insurance) and £4k later - yes bingo he has scaroiliac dysfunction VERY painful. He is now in rehab after being medicated in the pelvic region.

We did a short pain trial which convinced my vet there was a serious problem. Behaviour won't change overnight - my horse forgets himself less and less now, but sometimes his ears shoot back.
My advice would be STICK WITH YOUR GUT INSTINCT. Don't dismiss the alternative therapies or a communication to talk to your horse in your quest to find out the root problem - mine only cost £100 in total and boy did they all confirm the same!! Funny the sceptics never comment when they hear a 100% outcome like mine. The only thing with the communication is that the horse may not state it as bad as it is. My horse showed himself falling down and injuring his hind and shoulder and he said that he found ridden work 'too difficult' - I expected him to really shout about pain, but he didn't. But I gave no prompting as I knew nothing at that point of the injury - then the iridology report confirmed the same, although that could not say if the injury was causing any current problem.

I wonder why your vet has not suggested Tildren injection to the neck to help with the arthritis?My horse passed a 5 stage vetting when I bought him in September BUT he has clearly had this problem for a very long time indeed.
Wishing you the very best of luck!
 
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what a nightmare this sounds for all concerned and the horse but you are the one who knows the horse best

would it not be possible to find a chiro/physio who will come out to see the horse rather than send away ?

i 'm lucky to have not had a vet who refuses to explore other options its you that is paying them so i would demand a refural for a physio
 
Sorry I meant to add that my horse is having physio (£45 a session) and the physio is brilliant with using equipment to stimulate muscles etc and suggesting exercises. They are also very skilled in measuring muscle mass on either side to compare wastage and incorrect carrying etc.

I urge you to try and get a physio via referral - I can't understand the vet - the horse clearly will need to have some body work now.
 
What an awful predicament for you. Personally I'd have a niggle that epsm could be involved, I know Kalli doesn't have muscle wasting, but I think I'd try the epsm diet anyway for a few months and see what happens, if no difference then I'd probably consider pts,but I'd give it a crack of the whip first, just in case!
 
you have my sympathy. Its all much easier when a horse does something very obvious like a badly broken leg. I had a 14 yr old mare PTS 2 years ago. She had niggling problems,several of them,different issues, including possible navicular/arthritis in hoof somewhere/possible neurological. She seemed to be in some sort of pain ,she got niggly and crotchety but seemed ok in the field. But as a horse owner of 40 odd years I just sort of knew something was wrong. I had her PTS and believe I did the right thing. We all want t try everything and anything to keep our horses well, but sometimes I think it all goes too far nowadays and is not in the horses best interest.
 
I cannot understand why they will not allow physio ,most vets now work with physios /chiros etc. I have had some "problem" horses [not as difficult as yours sounds] that various people have given up on .These we have worked on with the physio and resolved many issues,headshaking/lameness etc.
A good physio will give an assessment and may say there is nothing that can be done to resolve the underlying problem,but this should at least be an option.
I would contact a physio directly and see if they can get vet permission to treat.
My physio will come out and assess without referral but will then advise whether treatment is needed, this has happened when vets are sometimes slow to give written permission,but it has never been refused.
Good luck with her and I hope you can make progress with treatment,however do not feel guilty if you have her pts as she must be in pain and you are doing the best for her.
Just seen your latest post, 6 weeks at specialist centre, has a physio already seen her and said that is absolutely necessary?could you not start at home?
 
It is very easy to keep going with treatments/referrals and the outcome being the same. As owners/keepers we have the ultimate responsibility of deciding when 'the time is right' and it is often a decision that is passed onto someone else through the selling or giving away of old or dangerous animals.
You know Kalli and how much pain she is in and how much she has already been through and your decision (IMO) is the right one, it is an awful decision to have to make and I feel for you and her owner. A good beach ride and eternal painfree turnout in a field of lush grass seems the best way ahead.
 
why won't they xray the foot? that's the first place to eliminate, its your horse, i had one lame for ages and got fobbed off with various treatments which did'nt work, but it was the silly comments that drove me on to find a conclusion, 5 vets later and months of lameness, low grade, she was cured.

not saying its the same for yours, sounds like she's got a few things going on, but the pelvis thing can be re-aligned, if its that that's involved you could see a dramatic improvement after chiro, which would be diagnostic although may need repeating, and help to finalise your decision.

the process of elimination is the only way i can see you progressing
 
I haven't read all the replies but would it be worth trying a chiropractor? My chiro is also a trained vet, and has made such a difference to my boy.
Think she must be local to you aswell.
 
As there is untreatable source of pain I would be PTS. It's kind of immaterial where it's coming from or whether a physio is referred. You can make a horse as straight and loose as is possible but it won't take arthritic pain away unfortunately.


I really feel for you and her owner. It's an awful decision to have to make with a young horse xx
 
In light of your last report that she's already been referred etc, I would have no hesitation in doing what is best for her given her other problems and putting down. It was your second post that swayed me, until then I was thinking another vet, more time blah blah but I don't think she has more time unless it's in pain and that's no life for anything at all IMV and it's not fair to ask it of her.
Very hard, she was a lovely horse but as someone else said - and it's not being callous because you did not choose for this to happen - there are a lot of nice horses out there without problems that you could be enjoying without these problems; I'd be doing my best to find one.
 
can you talk to glasow vets they been on TV as the place where people take there animals if no one else can cure or find out whats wrong



Glasgow's state of the art Vet Hospital is one of the best animal hospitals in the world.

This new series follows the highly specialised vets as they attempt to save the lives of animals other vets can't help - sometimes against all odds.

With the popularity of shows such as Once Born Every Minute and Junior Doctors, the tellybox has seen a succession of fly-on-the wall medical documentaries recently. But Animal ER proves that it's not only human emergencies that make for compelling viewing.


http://tv.sky.com/animal-er

They might be able to help i have seen a few of their amazing stories where they helped other animals inc which their vets said sorry cant help

or find another vet to give you a second opinion

animal hand healer or acupuncture? physio, back person

what about an equine pool swimming helps wonders
 
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Sorry to hear that you are having to make the difficult decision for Kalli, it can't be easy and only you/the owner can make it.

Just a thought, I have seen amazing results from Bowen treatment is that worth a try on Kalli?
 
So sorry to hear this, I've been there.
My TBxWelshD mare was within days of being PTS because she was so unpredictable to handle (we'd stopped riding her a few years before), when we changed her diet in an attempt to clear up a cough. In 3 days her behaviour changed completely, she was actually like a junkie going cold turkey - she cowered at the back of the box and had to be coaxed to do anything but then she never looked back. She reverted to being her old sweet self, although actually we never really rode her because she reacted so badly to sugar/cereals and we couldn't guarantee that passers-by hadn't fed her. She was a very good companion though and that became her 'job'.
Years later she was again within days of PTS through arthritis pain when I tried magnet boots - again miraculous results, this horse, which had been hobbling, trotted in for her tea after wearing the boots for the initial 24 hours. She wore them 12 hrs per day for the next 3 months, apparently pain-free, in fact she presented her feet for us to put them back on, she obviously knew their effect. Unfortunately she then died aged 24 from a stroke.
I can also recommend acupuncture/chiro, which my vet does. Our Appaloosa was becoming difficult, if not dangerous, to ride at canter and slightly lame in trot. Vet diagnosed a neck problem, the muscles had developed unevenly, acupuncture sorted that out.
same vet treated my ID's back problem with acupuncture - a friend who is a nurse watched the treatment and commented on how she instantly relaxed. The twist to this is that I have realised that she had become very spooky, particularly in reaction to noise, since we started feeding her a glucosoamine supplement. We took her off that about a month ago and she is now the calm, sensible horse that I remember.
If I were you, as you obviously don't want to PTS if you can help it, I would stop feeding her anything except grass/hay - we have had trouble with alfalfa- and try magnets in the first instance. Then I would find a vet who WILL refer to the physio. I can think of no reason why your vet won't do this.
However if you can't get to the bottom of the pain issue, you are making the right decision to PTS - she obviously can't go on like this.
Sorry, this turned into an essay, I hope it helps. If you want to PM me please do.
 
How awful for you! I feel that you know your horse best and I think gut instinct is usually correct in these circumstances. I would wait for her ovary scan results and maybe find another vet for a second opinion? Your vet doesn't really seem to be thorough enough and willing to find a solution! I really hope you find a solution and she doesn't have to be PTS :(
 
I'm not familar with you and Kali's story and I've just flicked through this thread.

One thing jumped out - the vet hospital and your location. I could be putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5

My mare was referred there for a full lameness work up and was given a clean bill of health and told to get on with things and stop looking for things that aren't there.

3mths later my mare was pts with very advanced navicular that my vets (at the time of referal to vet hosp I was out of my vets catchment area) said would have been underlying for at least 9mths (had 2 practices look at her before she was referred to vet hosp).

If it's a last chance then try Glasgow; I've heard really good things about them and Clyde Vets(http://www.clydevetgroup.co.uk/equine/equine.htm).

Also if you think physio will help then would it be worth paying for one session yourself to see if there is any improvement afterwards?
 
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