KC on Clare Balding's statement

CaveCanem said:
Here's one of the top working line sires.
Imagine him black and gold - does he look that much different?

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/444610.html

Here he is working

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQzcnfGqklk&feature=related

(Posted this originally during the changeover so was lost)
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I think he looks VERY athletic and there's certainly no issue with the way he covers the ground is there?

I've seen some GSD's looking far more level backed and some (it was a black one locally) that looked absolutely awful as a pup. It's back end looked like it was going to hit the floor with each stride and it was so cow hocked with it. Looked alot better as an adult.

I think most dogs look quite different when they are "stood up" for posing. Same with horses, look how exaggerated we get little Welsh ponies to stand...they look like a cross between a laminitic and a horse having a wee!

Your dogs, MM and CC, both look the picture of health.
 
Hi Arnesmum, welcome to the war zone.:D
Ermm, gazey I am agreeing with you about soundness not being an indication of being able to do a job. Hence my saying that my bitch with GSD had very sound movement but was not capable of doing the work required of a SchH trained GSD . You are talking more about construction aren't you when referring to backline etc. Oh and I so remember the typing up the critiques for my mum too, I used to have to take them down in the ring in shorthand, helped me to learn about the breed though.
 
Thanks CC for the welcome and I am so proud of now being a member of the gsd mafia!!!! I have followed your posts for quite a while and just have to say well done with all you have achieved it is not easy.
I will post photos of my crew as soon as possible.
 
You guys had it easy, I thought every home had a duplicator and a typewriter on the kitchen table, I had no idea it was for eating my dinner off!!!

Thanks Patches :) I agree, especially when being towed around the woods for miles on end - I will not lie, B does have other issues, well documented on here and nipped in the bud in terms of the potential of passing them on, but it doesn't prevent him from charging around at warp speed!

I think Frankie is lush, one of my favourites.
 
Arnesmum said:
Thanks CC for the welcome and I am so proud of now being a member of the gsd mafia!!!! I have followed your posts for quite a while and just have to say well done with all you have achieved it is not easy.
I will post photos of my crew as soon as possible.
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Aw, thankyou :) I'll not lie, it hasn't been easy!
 
MurphysMinder said:
Ermm, gazey I am agreeing with you about soundness not being an indication of being able to do a job. Hence my saying that my bitch with GSD had very sound movement but was not capable of doing the work required of a SchH trained GSD . You are talking more about construction aren't you when referring to backline etc.
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Well I had noticed that you were agreeing, but we couldnt have that now could we :p To me good construction is a pre-requisite of soundness? So yes I feel good construction is essential (no loose hocks or sloping toplines in my household :p:D) as it is a key part of a sound animal :)
 
As someone with little experience of the breed - we had one or two when I was younger but they were kennelled non pets - do images exist of the differing 'types' in skeleton form.

On the surface my brain tells me that these slopey backed animals must have greater strain placed on the hocks that the straighter varieties. On the other hand if the hind limbs are in fact shorter in the sloped type it would suggest that the limb and therefore the muscle associated with it would be stronger although Im sure if this is the case that there must be some form of strain on the lumbar region as compensation. If the spine length was also shortened then this would suggest an immensely strong and well balanced dog and therefore not one which would need the flatter back and more upright hindquarters.

I would be really interested to see anatomical images if they are available.

The reference made earlier to the african wild dog is interesting as this appears to have an upwardly curved back to compensate for a lowered hind end. This makes sense if you consider the obvious strength of the hind limbs which must travel right under the body to enable it to power itself forward. In essence this dog is built like a wild cat, the only difference being the cat has a shorter neck and a lighter skull which would also influence the biomechanics of both species.

Sorry, rambling but its fascinating. Im not party to the breed society/KC/Crufts debates, maybe thats a good thing and can view things with less emotional involvement but what I saw briefly on tv did surprise me.
 
Sorry yes another gsd mafia recruit, I do also have a border terrorist if that gets me more points, sorry its not quite a spangle!!!

Hi, MM I have brought my tin hat to the war zone, but must admit you all seem a lovely crew!!
 
Spaniel if I get a chance to do some scanning at the weekend and don't blow the bloody thing up, I have anatomical drawings by 'Herr' Brian Wootton from his book and also some judging sheets showing required structure and angles (that are currently in my glove compartment :p)
And some stuff from seminars.
 
Thanks CC that would be interesting to look at. Im a spangle girl through and through but my work involves biomenchanics so I tend to look at animals and people slightly differently - some say Im odd but hey Im happy!!
 
spaniel said:
The reference made earlier to the african wild dog is interesting as this appears to have an upwardly curved back to compensate for a lowered hind end. This makes sense if you consider the obvious strength of the hind limbs which must travel right under the body to enable it to power itself forward. In essence this dog is built like a wild cat, the only difference being the cat has a shorter neck and a lighter skull which would also influence the biomechanics of both species.
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It was actually a Striped Hyena, so not actually a dog at all, but it was the best I could do :D

The Spotted Hynea seem to have much more sloped backs, but I guess for a wild animal it must have some benefit for it still to be alive! I guess they don't come across much Cruft's Green Carpet in Africa :D

Hyena1.jpg


I'd like to point out to the GSD Mafia that I am in no way comparing their dogs to Ugly Hyneas! Before I wake up with a severed horse head next to me!! :eek: :p
 
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Gazehound said:
Well I had noticed that you were agreeing, but we couldnt have that now could we :p To me good construction is a pre-requisite of soundness? So yes I feel good construction is essential (no loose hocks or sloping toplines in my household :p:D) as it is a key part of a sound animal :)
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Sweden uses the Greyhound breed standard that is recognised by FCI and if I've managed to translate it back to English correctly, then you won't have any sloping toplines in your household but you will not have straight toplines either?

Greyhound breed standard :

"Back: Fairly long, broad and stable.
Loins strong and slightly arched."


The croup isn't mentioned and maybe the arch is almost invisible but it should still be there, so if your Greyhounds are anatomically correct compared to the breed standard, instead of a slope, yours have an arch.


Too many days in my youth spent typing up show critiques which all said "good topline and tailset, good neck and shoulders...."
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But a correct and good topline for e.g. a Greyhound or a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, is according to what it says in that breeds standard, which doesn't have to equal a correct and good topline for any other breed.


Compare the Greyhound breed standard to the Finnish Lapphund breed standard:

"Back: Strong and straight.
Loin short, muscular.
Croup medium long, well developed and only slightly sloping."



Or the quite detailed German Shepherd Dog breed standard :

"Topline (back line?) runs from the neck along the well-marked withers and along the gently sloping back to the croup, which slopes easily with no visible interruption.
The back is solid, strong and muscular.
Loin broad, well developed and muscular.
Croup long, gently sloping (about 23 degrees) in relation to the horizontal level and imperceptibly blending into tail set."



Or the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel breed standard :

"Back should be straight.
Loin should be short."

As with the Greyhound, the croup isn't even mentioned. Again, I hope I've managed to translate the Swedish FCI recognised standards back to English somewhat correctly, I also hope that I've made it clear what my point is, that a good topline for e.g. a CKCS is a wrong topline for a GSD and the other way around.

:)
 
I understand what you are saying FL, but I'm afraid I dont think that ANY KC breed standards necessarily promote a sound, healthy dog - we only have to watch Pedigree Dogs Exposed (if we believe all that sensationalist tripe) to see that! I would argue that the GSD of years ago, with a decent topline and what I would call 'good' confirmation, is what breeders today should be aiming for, not what is required in a breed standard?

I always find it interesting that greyhounds and whippets - ostensibly very similar looking breeds other than size - have distinctly different requirements from our KC about how their topline should look. Greyhounds have a gentle arch, whippets are meant to have a lot more of a roach over the back (sorry, too lazy to look up the exact wording!)

Ahhh isnt selective breeding just great...:p
 
I don't won't to fire this argument up again, but just a quick response to the comments about the GSDs of years ago. I have lived with GSDs throughout the last 50 odd years, yes toplines have changed but so have many other things and generally the GSD of today, imho, is a better dog than those of years ago. Temperaments are definitely much better, many dogs in the 60s were very nervous, including champions, and I include one my mum bred in that (not Granit CC). They also had loose hocks then, and many were over angulated. On the plus side they were probably calmer (the ones that weren't nervous) as the introduction of stronger working lines has obviously meant the dogs of today need to have a job to do rather than just be hearth rugs. And that may well have lead to some of the cases in rescue, people who had a couch potato of a dog years ago take on a new pup with far more drive and can't cope. The only answer is for breeders to make sure prospective purchasers realise the breeds needs.
Sorry rant over, group hug anyone?
 
X-POST - statement from Lagos' breeder.

“To breed and own a GSD like Clokelly Lagos has been my life’s ambition. I am dedicated to this lovely GSD breed.
I have taken Lagos through every health screening test appropriate for our breed, which he has passed with flying colours. I have also taken Lagos through the most stringent assessment tests and examinations for GSD in Germany, our breeds motherland. Again he has passed them ALL with flying colours. I have actively supported the Kennel Club and its licensed shows for many years, something I am currently questioning very seriously indeed.

I find the latest Kennel Club Statement deeply offensive, and like me, I am sure the majority of our GSD breed enthusiasts will be deeply insulted by it.

The Kennel Club have failed to make any reference to the complaints made to them about the television interview itself being unfair, and insulting, and in very bad taste. Particularly against a GSD judged to be best of breed, and a GSD specialist judge. A GSD Judge specifically selected by the Kennel Club for his qualifications and qualities, who was singularly abandoned, unsupported by the Kennel Club Secretary in this TV interview.

The Kennel Club Secretary surely had a duty to the exhibitor and the GSD exhibit correctly entered and judged at its own Crufts Show, and the GSD Judge, during that infamous TV interview. She completely failed in this respect, concentrating solely and unjustifiably on scoring points against the GSD breed, disgraceful indeed. Especially considering the exemplary status of my dogs show record, health screening record and assessments record.

The Kennel Club Statement is clearly a COP-OUT, and they should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Our GSD exhibitors within Great Britain clearly lead the way for all pedigree dogs breeds in Health Screening and Fit for Function assessments. The Kennel Club’s choosing to focus on UNSOUNDNESS is simply to steer attention away from compulsory health screening tests, onto “visible faults”. In other words “Out of sight – Out of mind” – Then the majority of people registering GSD litters can continue ‘unrestricted’, because NO ONE will be looking at their breeding stock for UNSOUNDNESS, and they can continue NOT doing any health screening, such as Hips, Elbows, Haemophilia tests, DNA tests etc. They can continue NOT having their breeding stock assessed in any way whatsoever, especially for suitable characters and temperaments, which to the General Public is the MOST IMPORTANT ASSESSMENT FOR OUR GSD BREED.

The Kennel Club should enter meaningful discussions with our GSD breed Clubs, without further delay. The Kennel Club could all too obviously learn a great deal from them.”

Carol Keen
 
spaniel said:
As someone with little experience of the breed - we had one or two when I was younger but they were kennelled non pets - do images exist of the differing 'types' in skeleton form.

On the surface my brain tells me that these slopey backed animals must have greater strain placed on the hocks that the straighter varieties. On the other hand if the hind limbs are in fact shorter in the sloped type it would suggest that the limb and therefore the muscle associated with it would be stronger although Im sure if this is the case that there must be some form of strain on the lumbar region as compensation. If the spine length was also shortened then this would suggest an immensely strong and well balanced dog and therefore not one which would need the flatter back and more upright hindquarters.

I would be really interested to see anatomical images if they are available.

The reference made earlier to the african wild dog is interesting as this appears to have an upwardly curved back to compensate for a lowered hind end. This makes sense if you consider the obvious strength of the hind limbs which must travel right under the body to enable it to power itself forward. In essence this dog is built like a wild cat, the only difference being the cat has a shorter neck and a lighter skull which would also influence the biomechanics of both species.

Sorry, rambling but its fascinating. Im not party to the breed society/KC/Crufts debates, maybe thats a good thing and can view things with less emotional involvement but what I saw briefly on tv did surprise me.
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Hi Spaniel. Will probably not be able to get scanning what I want to before my hols this weekend so these (although ****) will have to make do in the meantime!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4vn24YA-Rc4/SX04wUBrLiI/AAAAAAAAAqo/xEgSCLmjdUM/s400/GSDskeleton.JPG

http://www.zanmarheim.com/Skeleton.jpg

http://www.camnuschgermanshepherds.com/about_1.jpg

The last image is as similar to what I have on my judging sheets as anything else I can find online.

Here is a video of Dingo vom Haus Gero, a 1980s sieger, gaiting, a fab video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIFpKL0qRQ0

Here are some examples of the side gait (to show the 'rear wheel drive' aspect!)



Here's my fella on a loose lead


I am trying to remember some of the long and boring convos I have had with his breeder about the issue and he thinks the most pressing thing is using the best breeding programmes to get the thighs, if not the hocks shorter.
On the working side, a lot of them have very poor front assembly!
 
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