KC on Clare Balding's statement

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CorvusCorax

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The KC has commented on Clare Balding's remarks about the GSD BoB at Crufts.

'As part of More4’s commitment to having an open debate about the health and welfare of dogs during the 2010 coverage of Crufts, it was inevitable that there would be some discussion about the issues that exist in certain breeds. Clare Balding chose to highlight a health issue which was also subsequently noted by the BVA. The Kennel Club has since received a number of emails and phone calls from viewers concerned at the appearance of the dog.
The Kennel Club would not and could not interfere with More4 reporting on these issues in the way that it sees fit.
Although the Kennel Club cannot comment on this case in particular it should be noted that within all of the high profile breeds, both judges and monitors were required to submit a report about the dogs that they saw before them at DFS Crufts. These reports will, as always, go to the Kennel Club’s Dog Health Group and if there is a discrepancy between them the Kennel Club will ask the relevant judge to provide an explanation, which will be assessed accordingly.
The Kennel Club is taking firm action to address the problems which it perceives in the GSD breed generally and has asked all GSD clubs to sign an undertaking to confirm that they recognise that there is a problem with the conformation of the breed at present and only those which sign will be allocated CCs from 2011 onwards.'

(x-post from another forum)

Would the KC really call into question the opinion of a judge they selected in the wake of the furore caused by 'Pedigree Dogs Exposed'???

Clokelly's Lagos - here are his credentials -
- SchIII - highest possible qualification for obedience, tracking, protection work. As someone who trained their dog for months to prepare for the basic entry level qualification that enables you to step onto the first rung of the Schutzhund ladder, I can personally say - this is a great achievement.
- AD - 20k run off a bike.
- Hips 3:3, elbows 0, haemophilia clear.
- No linebreeding in five generations - unlike some animals bred by the secretary of the kennel club!!!
- A dog that any progressive GSD lover would be delighted to have running around in their yard.
- Health, brains, beauty, courage!

This dog has no "health issue".

Here is Lagos in free stance.

Lagos.jpg
 
I don't for a minute suppose the KC will do anything to support the GSD, not in their current frame of mind about the breed.
I imagine the judge was actually chosen long before Pedigree Dogs Exposed, I seem to remember from when Mum did it that judges were asked 2 or 3 years beforehand, but then weren't allowed to tell anyone.:rolleyes: Great picture of Lagos, I didn't see him on the tv so can't comment on that. One thing I will disagree with some GSD folk about is that ,from what I saw at the last Ch show I was at, there is a problem with loose hocks in the breed. However, I do not agree it affects the dogs health in any way, and in many cases if the dogs were moved on a loose lead they would look far sounder.
 
Well, to have achieved all of that he must be a sound dog. But saying that, the coverage of him in the group did make his backend look incredibly weak and it did shock me.

Given his performance record and his health testing results I can only speculate that maybe it was the big occassion that got to him. I know with my own dogs when they are spooked by something their movement goes really bad sometimes, tails dropped down, hunching their backend. Possibly this is what happened with this dog and the few seconds shown on TV were not an accurate portrayal of his true movement? I cant imagine a dog that moved like he did at Crufts could achieve all that he has done as his backend looked so hunched and weak so there must be another explanation...
 
That carpet is horrible for dogs that push through their hocks, probably didn't help, When my GSD bitch competed in the agility on the "big green carpet" she could barely keep her feet, she actually fell as she started, big push from the wait position and her legs went from under her, and again when she turned sharply, its definitely not ideal for powerful moving dogs.:(
 
When I watched this GSD move I was shocked by the lack of mobility through the hindlimb. He did drag the hind legs considerably in the group, as he went past you could hear the scrape of his back nails on the carpet. On several times knuckling over behind in trot gait. He may well have been very tired by that stage though. As MM says above the carpet this year was horrible. It was slippery, and the loops in the fabric caught on nails, shoes, and anything you put down on it.
 
I agree the combination of a huge indoor arena, which he wouldn't have been used to, being held up when he is used to gaiting on a long lead and the carpet, would have caused him problems.

The back legs of the GSD act like a piston to drive the dog forward as MM says, they are like a rear-wheel drive car, which is why a dog used to gaiting on a grass or synthetic pitch will struggle on a shiny green carpet.

Although I will say this - a SchIII dog should be able to gait comfortably at heel, in our workers class next month the dogs will be expected to gait off-lead beside their handler, to me it is one of the best parts of the competition - and my favourite part of the Sieger show in Germany - and any flaws in movement hidden by the handler pulling up and back on the lead will be exposed.

Loretta from Shotaan, who got Reserve in the Pastoral Group a few years ago, handled by Steve Cox, showed herself beautifully in the big ring, I think better preparation may be the key.

http://www.shotaan.co.uk/loretta.html
(See fabulous extension!)
 
The above dog does look really badly deformed though - his back end is hunched right down - can you imagine the extra strain that conformation is putting on his hocks/pelvis and back - regardless of what this animal has achieved it will be interesting to see how long he stays sound and workable for - my guess is not that long.
And after seeing the dog move on the program I was really shocked that someone would knowingly breed for that conformation and with such a hunched deformed spine with the resultant gait, there is no excuse for it - and if a dogs paw pads can't grip on carpet then there is something wrong with it!! The way it moved showed a very weak animal - regardless of wether an animal is tired or not - that gait was shockingly weak right through the whole leg, and for an animal to knuckle over like that means its basic reflexes aren't working properly - usually it's seen in animals with spinal injuries and nerve damage - so for a supposedly "healthy" dog it is very worrying! Having an animals pelvis tucked under it spine like that at that angle does not provide power either - unless you are intending for the dog to start walking on 2 legs not 4. And the reason his hip scores are fine is because the breeders have deformed the spine and tilted the pelvis so the actual hip joint has had little change in angulation.
If you tried breeding this conformation into a horse with the same reasoning that it looks more powerful and gives it more drive I would bet my last penny it would never leave its field and be totally crippled - the only reason a dog can get away with it is because it doesn't have to carry weight or work to anywhere near the same level, plus dogs are very pleasy and will do anything for their owner regardless of wether they physically shouldn't. For a breed of dog that is fairly similar in build to a wolf, if the conformation of the above dog made it so much more powerful then shouldn't we see it occurring naturally?! And if you look at the conformation of working GSD dogs on the continent they look totally different and far more powerful, useful and healthier than this poor creature.
 
The carpets used at a dog show like Crufts are not like the carpets you have in your living room, they are very thin and offer very little grip, during my two days at Crufts this year i saw several handlers slip whilst running their dogs, the carpets seemed particularly bad this year, possibly they could do with being replaced.

Usually it is a good idea to put paw wax on the dogs feet to aide their grip, especially whilst going around the corners. When you are moving the dog in an enclosed space at a decent speed (the GSDs are moved very fast considering the small amount of space in the rings) it is very easy for them to slip on the corners, i very often put anti-slip spray on the bottom of my own shoes, and did this year at Crufts and still found it slippery.


I personally prefered the look of the GSD 50 or so years ago when they had a more level back, but from the picture posted the dog would appear a good example of the breed, certainly not overly exaggerated like some i've seen. The way he is stacked makes the backend look weak, i dont know why they stand them like that (GSD people??) but if you see them standing 4 square like other breeds are shown the back levels out considerably.
 
Can't answer why they are stood with one hind leg back, someone somewhere must have decided it was a good idea. The breed standard calls for the croup to be sloped if a dog has a flat croup, giving the appearance of a level back from wither to tail it is incorrect.
Alexart as UnaB says the Crufts carpet is nothing like household carpet, not sure if you have ever seen it or exhibited on it. I don't think the "poor creature" needs your sympathy, it appears to me he has a very happy, active life.
 
Alexart said:
The above dog does look really badly deformed though - his back end is hunched right down - can you imagine the extra strain that conformation is putting on his hocks/pelvis and back - regardless of what this animal has achieved it will be interesting to see how long he stays sound and workable for - my guess is not that long.
And after seeing the dog move on the program I was really shocked that someone would knowingly breed for that conformation and with such a hunched deformed spine with the resultant gait, there is no excuse for it - and if a dogs paw pads can't grip on carpet then there is something wrong with it!! The way it moved showed a very weak animal - regardless of wether an animal is tired or not - that gait was shockingly weak right through the whole leg, and for an animal to knuckle over like that means its basic reflexes aren't working properly - usually it's seen in animals with spinal injuries and nerve damage - so for a supposedly "healthy" dog it is very worrying! Having an animals pelvis tucked under it spine like that at that angle does not provide power either - unless you are intending for the dog to start walking on 2 legs not 4. And the reason his hip scores are fine is because the breeders have deformed the spine and tilted the pelvis so the actual hip joint has had little change in angulation.
If you tried breeding this conformation into a horse with the same reasoning that it looks more powerful and gives it more drive I would bet my last penny it would never leave its field and be totally crippled - the only reason a dog can get away with it is because it doesn't have to carry weight or work to anywhere near the same level, plus dogs are very pleasy and will do anything for their owner regardless of wether they physically shouldn't. For a breed of dog that is fairly similar in build to a wolf, if the conformation of the above dog made it so much more powerful then shouldn't we see it occurring naturally?! And if you look at the conformation of working GSD dogs on the continent they look totally different and far more powerful, useful and healthier than this poor creature.
Click to expand...

Alexart - I have been involved with GSDs all my life and I have yet to see these cripples you speak of from the Germanic/Western european showlines. Maybe I have been lucky.
I am actually very well aquainted with the working lines from the continent thanks, there are plenty of them already in the UK and to be honest while they lack the intensity and drive on the sleeve compared to the imported Czech, East German, Belgian and Dutch animals that both visit and are members of my own club, show-bred dogs can match them equally in terms of speed, strength and agility over the 1m hurdle, A-frame and scrabble board.
The dog pictured had to complete the same routine as the working dogs on the continent. Obedience pattern with retrieval over obstacles, a 1km track at the very least, six-hide search, short attack with rebite, long attack with back transport and as mentioned, the training is long and gruelling.
Working lines are just as prone to hereditary conditions, I know of one who was PTS a few weeks ago over epilepsy, an acquaintance has had to retire a young dog because his elbow score was through the roof and (straight :p) backs routinely get tweaked when they are flipped by the agitator on the long attack. Thankfully health testing is also rigorous and you can't compete to a high level without the required health test results.
Maybe come join us on the field someday, or visit your local working club, I am sure you would be surprised.
 
Alexart, as far as I know, breed standards are regulated by the kennel club and/or specific breed club in the breeds Country of origin and the Federation Cynologique Internationale, if a breed standard says that the croup should be sloped on so or so breed, that is what the judges and breeders have to comply with.

However, how much or little slope that is the ideal, is more a matter of taste and possibly also "fashion".


Besides if we're going to compare horses and dogs functionality, I've heard more than one Swedish show jumping expert say that dogs, including GSD's, works much better with their backs when they jump agility obstacles, than what horses does when they jump obstacles. So perhaps horses would jump better, if people tried to breed horses with an anatomy that looked more similar to that of dogs?

Though I doubt it would be practical in reality, when breeding potential show jumpers it is after all, not only a matter about how well they jump, they need to be able to carry a rider on its back as well. But dogs are not bred to carry a rider, that is why they can look the way they do and still be functional.


Another very important matter is that different dog breeds have different ideal trot, if my Finnish Lapphunds trotted like a GSD it would look absolutely ridiculous and it would mean that they did not have the correct anatomy for a Finnish Lapphund.

A German Shepherd Dog with correct anatomy for a GSD, will continue to trot but increase the speed of the trot for as long as possible, before beginning to gallop/canter (don't know which is correct English to use for dogs
d055.gif
), just as it was with my late Smooth Collie, the faster I tried to run, the faster she trotted.
E.g. both GSD's and Smooth Collies are breeds that are built to prefer to trot.

E.g. Labrador Retrievers and Finnish Lapphunds on the other hand, will much quicker choose to stop trotting and begin to gallop/canter instead, they're built to gallop/canter as well as they trot.


:)
 
UnaB said:
I personally prefered the look of the GSD 50 or so years ago when they had a more level back
Click to expand...

I didn't see the video, so can't comment, but I travelled from Penn Station in NYC at the weekend. They have a dozen or so police dogs working there--Springers, Labs, but mostly German Shepherds. The police dogs had completely level backs. Is this a show dog versus working dog difference?
 
Lagos is a show dog with working qualifications.

Equally, Frankie, who was linked up there, was a working dog with the potential to excell in the showring (although perhaps a little tall)

Next year there will be a Universal Sieger in Austria in a bid to further marry the two types, with all dogs completing a full SchIII trial before going on to a breed survey, the dog with most points wins.
 
CaveCanem said:
Lagos is a show dog with working qualifications.

Equally, Frankie, who was linked up there, was a working dog with the potential to excell in the showring (although perhaps a little tall)

Next year there will be a Universal Sieger in Austria in a bid to further marry the two types, with all dogs completing a full SchIII trial before going on to a breed survey, the dog with most points wins.
Click to expand...


Sorry to be a divot, but does that mean that the police dogs I saw are a different strain, much like you have the fine-boned Labs and the stocky Labs? I thought about taking a picture of said police dogs, but the warnings over the tannoy system not to pet the dogs sort of put me off.
 
There are different strains all over the world, different shapes and sizes. East German and Czech dogs tend to be shorter legged with huge heads and very dark sable or black sable or bicolour. The English 'alsatian' type is very long, low and overangulated with a back that dips in the middle. The East German type are leggier and more 'athletic' looking.

And like I have mentioned above, there are the dual purpose types, which is the ideal.
You cannot get to the top showrings in Germany **without** working qualifications and health tests and that is a system a lot of breed clubs are trying to implement in the UK.

It's a debate that has been raging for the century or so that the breed has existed.
The breed was a work in progress for it's creator during his lifetime and it continues to be - every year the Sieger is decided on what he can bring to the breed, what he can correct and what he can enhance.

There will always be banter between the straight back people, the slopey showlines and the alsatianists. As long as a dog is sound in mind and body, which IMO the dog mentioned in the OP most certainly is then I am happy and so should everybody else be.
 
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CaveCanem said:
There will always be banter between the straight back people, the slopey showlines and the alsatianists. As long as a dog is sound in mind and body, which IMO the dog mentioned in the OP most certainly is then I am happy and so should everybody else be.
Click to expand...

CC you will never see this point as you so strongly disagree with it, but I agree with Alexart on this one! I will never be able to classify the dog you have pictured as 'sound' whatever its achievements because I fundamentally believe that with a topline and back end confirmation like that it cannot be sound for the reasons Alexart has so eloquently explained. But we are both like a broken record here :D and a bit like the pro and anti debate we will never be reconciled...:p
 
Well I am sorry about that and to be honest a bit sad, because I can see with my eyes what these dogs are capable of week in, week out, and always have done, I am sorry people doubt my word but I will never stop fighting our corner.

Cest la vie.

Again, an open invitation stands to anyone who wants to visit our clubs and our dogs to see them in action.
 
As you say Gazey we are never going to agree I suspect. The term sound is being used a lot, and different people put different interpretations on it. To me a sound dog in the show ring is one that moves straight in front and going away, but a dog can be "unsound" e.g. loose hocks or elbows, but still be perfectly capable of doing the job it was bred for. The soundest ( or should I say truest) mover going away, i.e. absolutely straight, short hocks, I ever owned, had a hips score in the 90s. She would probably have been incapable of scaling etc, but was an incredibly good moving bitch who won veteran classes and gaiting competitions in her later years and never had a days lameness in her life.
So when you say that Lagos' confirmation makes him unsound it doesn't make sense with my use of the word, obviusly we see things differently. I have a nasty feeling when you see my Evil at the meet up you will consider her deformed and unsound, maybe if I can teach her to stand by then I will show how it is possible to alter their shape in show pose. Don't think you should compare us to the pro and anti debate though, suspect there is a lot more middle ground with us lot.:D
 
Tut tut, does that mean we equate to the anti hunting mob :( OT, but something really bizarre just happened. Was doing a google search to try and find a picture of Granit in his heyday to post on here, got linked to a whippet forum (having a go at Lagos but we won't go there) because someone on there was quoting Granit as an example of a correct GSD. Turns out this lady used to work for my Mum and Gran probably 50 odd years ago, what a small world eh.:)
Couldn't find a pic though.:(

Edited cos my spelling is ****.
 
Only joking of course!

A small world indeed.
If I can get OH to make scanner work at the weekend I can scan some in from handbooks/Brian Wooton's book. Want to scan that brilliant pic of Mrs Barrington on her horse with about 20 GSDs all walking along beside her (damned commercial breeder :p)
 
I am new to posting here but have lurked for a long, long time, so a quick hello to everyone. I am a huge gsd fan, having worked the breed for many years and bred a few litters. I feel so strongly about how the kc now sees the german shepherd that I have given back my affix and registration to run the good citizen award scheme ( I run a dog training club, which has a huge collection of dogs not just gsd's).
Yes some Gsd's may not look sound but all those I have owned have been sound and fit for purpose.
I just think the kc should look at all the breeds as there are problems with so many.

I would just like to see happy, healthy dogs.
 
Oh I know about stacking dogs MM and how it can completely change the shape etc, I used to show whippets :D Yup, we do have different interpretation of soundness however, as to me the ability to do a job is not an indication of soundness (hence my horse is 1/10 lame according to my equine physio but does a smashing dressage test!)

I was talking to my mum about this the other day and unfortunately the blame lies solely with her :p - she has exactly the same views as me about soundness and could see where I was coming from straight away. Too many days in my youth spent typing up show critiques which all said "good topline and tailset, good neck and shoulders...." :D
 
Welcome Arnesmum, PM me your name to see if I know you :p

Well done for taking a stand and welcome to the HHO GSD Mafia (I just inducted you :p)

Piccies of your dogs please :)

(Gazey, if I get time before the weekend, I am going to bombard the forum with every stacked pic I have of B, he can do all sorts of styles :p)
 
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